Don't ask, don't tell policy

[ponyboy45]

http://www.puddysplace.com/gay_military_men/image20.jpg

I was just wondering what everyone's take on the policy that President Clinton instituted a few years ago concerning gays in th military. Personally as a 20 year Navy veteran, I don't see any problem with having gays in the military. As long as they are doing their job and not trying to get into every guy's pants that they see, I say leave them alone and let them serve their country honorably like everyone else. I really think that our country is way too homophobic. What a guy does and who he sleeps with on his off duty time is his business. If he prefers to sleep with other guys, so be it. Who is he hurting?

Now, on the other hand, I think that problems could arise if gay sex practices where openly displayed aboard a ship for example. Although, I can tell you first hand that guys who are stuck aboard a ship for long periods of time together do find ways to have sex with one another. Unfortunately for some, they get caught which causes more problems. I have heard of guys getting caught in the rack together. I have also heard of guys having sex in store rooms or even in engineering spaces. Hey, it happens. I even heard of one wild case where an officer was caught fucking an enlisted person outside on deck at night. Hope they used a blanket. That nonskid could hurt! I have also known guys who set up dates with each other to meet for sex on their liberty time. And, there were some that were even so bold as to leave their messages on bathroom stalls.

All of this is cool with me. Personally, I agree with the policy. Why can't I have sex with another shipmate if I want. I have even had sex in my barracks room on several occassions. I don't see any harm that I did. We both enjoyed the experience.

Anyway, I was just wondering what everyone's take on this is.

 

[Queersetti]

I believe, quite simply, that there should be the same policies, and equal enforcement of those policies, for servicemen and women of all orientations.

There is certainly good reason to place restrictions of sexual activity in the military, in the interest of discipline, unit cohesion, etc. But there is no reason why those rules should be different for homosexual acts than for heterosexual acts.

Sexual harassment is wrong, no matter who does it. Dereliction of duty is wrong, no matter who does it. Gays should not be held to a different standard than straights.

 

[ponyboy45]

Gays in the military

Sexual harassment is wrong, no matter who does it. Dereliction of duty is wrong, no matter who does it. Gays should not be held to a different standard than straights.

I agree with this statement 100%. A person's sexual orientation should not set them apart as being different or a special case. A gay person should be treated the same as a straight person in all cases. No exceptions. As long as that person conforms to military standards and performs their duties, who has the right to judge their sexual activities? Like I said previously what a person does or who they sleep with in their off duty hours should be their business. They do not deserve to be harassed or abused because of their sexual preferences.

 

[emap]

The only reason why there is that policy is because of people, usually out of the military who beleive it is wrong and we're pushing to exclude gay people from the military period, alot more said they should be allowed to join the military, and most people just said who cares.

So Clinton just said Don't ask Don't tell to get them all to shut up. Smart guy, came up with the only thing not going to piss people off after they thought about it for a second, the ones pushing to exclude we're happy because they thought all gay people are proud and tell everyone Everyone else is happy because no matter what they can join, just have to keep it quiet, most were anyway.

Personally I think it should be a who cares policy, or rather not a policy, because really the people who do care are in a minority, yet somehow they always manage to be elected to something, many of them I am forced to wonder why, take the president, if ever I've seen a man more incapable of doing anything well, he's it.

 

[mystic_maiden32]

I believe everyone should be held to the same standards-but it is funny-when the women are caught together in the berthings nothing is done about it...why is that?

 

[John Doe]

I believe everyone should be held to the same standards-but it is funny-when the women are caught together in the berthings nothing is done about it...why is that?

Politics.

Anyway, Don't Ask-Don't Tell is a great idea in theory but an abysmal failure as it has been implimented IMO.

 

[emap]

Actually I would say the women caught together usually don't get in trouble because all but the most rabid of homophobes loves the thought of lesbians, let alone seeing them.

The double standards have good parts and bad parts. I mean a guy can go and have sex whenever they want really, it's expected of them, but a woman does it and she's shunned, now of course when you think about it, if a woman isn't supposed to just go and fuck whoever, but a guy is, who is a guy supposed to just go and fuck until he gets married?

 

[mystic_maiden32]

I agree with you all. I am a female, and I know I might piss someone off by saying this-oh well-but the way MOST women act in the military makes me think they shouldn't even be allowed in. They keep screaming equality, but aren't willing to do their part. They can get out of orders by getting knocked up, then use that excuse so they don't have to do their job.....and the don't ask don't tell policy just not simply apply at all. Sorry I am ranting. Those type of women just make the rest of us look like a bunch of whiney ass bitches....

 

[John Doe]

Actually I would say the women caught together usually don't get in trouble because all but the most rabid of homophobes loves the thought of lesbians, let alone seeing them.

Military policy (both offical and unofficial) is all too often micro-managed by politicians, who are in turn affected the mindset of thier constituents.

On the one hand it is partly what you mentioned: a double standard towards homosexual activity based on gender. But I also suspect it's due to political pressures to be softer on female personnel.

The double standards have good parts and bad parts. I mean a guy can go and have sex whenever they want really, it's expected of them, but a woman does it and she's shunned, now of course when you think about it, if a woman isn't supposed to just go and fuck whoever, but a guy is, who is a guy supposed to just go and fuck until he gets married?

An interesting point, but the prevailing opinion regarding women and sex is changing so that it's more tolerant of sexually active women. It's not all the way there, but it is betetr than it has been.

 

[emap]

Stuponfucious that really depends on where you live, and who your talking to. In smaller towns it's still the same as it has been, guys can go out and fuck anybody, women are supposed to stay at home doing nothing but cleaning the house and doing laundry. Alot of them do get out and have wild flings, but uif they are caught they kinda can't do anything anymore, they don't get thrown out of the house, which is a good thing, but they can't buy anything, and they get picked on in school, if they are still going for being a slut.

Things are getting better, but they are nowhere near as good as they should be.

Now about the politicians micromanaging the MP's, I don't think so, I'm pretty sure the MP's still go around in pairs, no politicians, it's their reports on what they have seen and why they have arrested someone. Since most of them are guys and rather understanding fellows at that, they really don't care, they probably ask to watch, but file no reports unless of course someone called in a complaint, then they have to file unless the complainer decides not to.

I could be wrong but I doubt it, besides politicians never have time for anything but photo ops and asskissing to get money and votes.

 

[Regis2001]

I for one see nothing wrogn with gays in the military. Of course. Hell, it follows the grandest tradition of ancient times. Anyone remember The Sacred Band in classical Athens?

As for the sexual double standard... hmm. I can't say I've come across it often, but I have noticed one thing. I have teased both male and female friends for being a bit over-friendly, shall we say. In these cases the men have laughed off the good-natured ribbing. But the women have got upset and acted like I'd insulted them. Well, maybe I had insulted them. But only in a joking way.

The point is, it's easier to carry off sexual promiscuity if one simply doesn't care too much what other people think about it, and for whatever reason it seems that the men I know can do that more easily than the women. I mean, nobody I know really respects over-sexed people anyway. We may be occasionally over-awed by their appetite and their ability to sate it, but we never respect them for it.

 

[John Doe]

Stuponfucious that really depends on where you live, and who your talking to. In smaller towns it's still the same as it has been, guys can go out and fuck anybody, women are supposed to stay at home doing nothing but cleaning the house and doing laundry. Alot of them do get out and have wild flings, but uif they are caught they kinda can't do anything anymore, they don't get thrown out of the house, which is a good thing, but they can't buy anything, and they get picked on in school, if they are still going for being a slut.

If you'll bother to actually read my post, I said the prevailing opinion (meaning the general or majority opinion, which does not include limited pockets of ignorance like Bumfuck, Alabama).

Things are getting better, but they are nowhere near as good as they should be.

I believe I said that.

Now about the politicians micromanaging the MP's, I don't think so, I'm pretty sure the MP's still go around in pairs, no politicians, it's their reports on what they have seen and why they have arrested someone. Since most of them are guys and rather understanding fellows at that, they really don't care, they probably ask to watch, but file no reports unless of course someone called in a complaint, then they have to file unless the complainer decides not to.

I could be wrong but I doubt it, besides politicians never have time for anything but photo ops and asskissing to get money and votes.

You obviously know very little or nothing about the U.S. Military. An MP (who has a commanding officer I might add) would not usually "ask to watch." That is extremely unprofessional and grounds for disciplinary action.

 

[emap]

No I don't know much about MP's, no real need to, I know some general stuff, like they are tasked with everything the U.S. Marshals, state police, correctional officers and highway patrol have to do, along with combat duty, well some of them get combat duty. I also know they run things like they are in the military, which means 4 forms for going to the bathroom and such.

I do however know men, quite well really, I didn't just stay in the town I was born in then moved in with my guy in AZ. Unprofessional or not, they would be more likely to ask to watch or join in then most anything else assuming they find the women cute. YOu may wish to beleive otherwise, but under the uniforms and training, they are still men and women.

I remember a time when I was getting some in a back seat, a cop pulled up besides us, got out checked the car banged on it and asked to join in, well he asked after talking to my date, they knew each other but both swore they didn't set it up. Unprofessional yes, he even said it, also said he could get fired for doing it, and he was a retired Marine. Men are men are men, doesn't matter where you are, who your doing, if they find it exciting they will stand and watch, or ask to join in, some are to shy to ask so just stand there, but they all will join in or watch. Maybe we should do a poll on how many guys would like to watch a couple of women enjoying each other, the answer will be most, there was a research I saw a while ago that stated that 95% of all men polled said they would like to watch two women having sex with each other, this was done in the middle of the bible belt.

 

[John Doe]

No I don't know much about MP's, no real need to, I know some general stuff, like they are tasked with everything the U.S. Marshals, state police, correctional officers and highway patrol have to do, along with combat duty, well some of them get combat duty. I also know they run things like they are in the military, which means 4 forms for going to the bathroom and such.

You really should learn more about it if you're going to insist on discussing it.

No, the MPs do not solely "run things like they are in the military." All Military personnel run things. MPs merely enforce military law.

I do however know men, quite well really, I didn't just stay in the town I was born in then moved in with my guy in AZ. Unprofessional or not, they would be more likely to ask to watch or join in then most anything else assuming they find the women cute. YOu may wish to beleive otherwise, but under the uniforms and training, they are still men and women.

Of course they are, but that doesn't mean they'll think with thier crotches instead of thier brains. How do you come to the conclusion they'd be more likely to ask that then anything else? That claim is just utterly illogical.

I remember a time when I was getting some in a back seat, a cop pulled up besides us, got out checked the car banged on it and asked to join in, well he asked after talking to my date, they knew each other but both swore they didn't set it up. Unprofessional yes, he even said it, also said he could get fired for doing it, and he was a retired Marine. Men are men are men, doesn't matter where you are, who your doing, if they find it exciting they will stand and watch, or ask to join in, some are to shy to ask so just stand there, but they all will join in or watch. Maybe we should do a poll on how many guys would like to watch a couple of women enjoying each other, the answer will be most, there was a research I saw a while ago that stated that 95% of all men polled said they would like to watch two women having sex with each other, this was done in the middle of the bible belt.

I don't see how this experience is relevent, if it's even authentic. For one thing, we were discussing the conduct of Military Police, not civilian authorities. Secondly, this individual that supposedly propositioned you was a retired Marine...so what?The key word there is "retired," meaning they don't have to follow the rules of conduct anymore.

The poll you suggest is biased of course, because we were talking about whether or not a male MP (some are female believe it or not) would likely ask to watch two female personnel have sex. We were not discussing whether an unspecified male would want to watch two unspecified females have sex. The asnwer to the latter of course, is the vast majority of men would want to do that. But that is irrelevent to what we were discussing.

 

[emap]

I just give up, you obviously have your own little world and there is no point in trying to shake any of your ideas about people. I did not change the subject like you are asserting, there is a point to a retired Marine breaking from training, he had the same basic rules applied to him as a police officer as he would have in the military, I guess you missed out on the cops having the same rules as the military police. They are modeled after each other you know, not sure which came first, but when one comes up with an improvement, the other follows. Enjoy your time on Stuponfucios world, I'm having such fun on the real one, you really should try it sometime, much more fun, and things actually make sense here.

Oh yeah, I know there are female, I was saying male because the majority are and your more likely to understand a male MP wanting to watch, I guess you don't. But a female is even more likely to either watch, join in your just leave them to it, we are tons more understanding than guys, and I have yet to meet a woman who has not at least thought about it when she can't find a guy to do or he isn't up for it, or there.

One other small thing then I'll leave you to your world, ever wonder why they are in the military? Very few straight women would want to do military, let alone actually get far enough to do MP, since there is more training for that, with regular cops doing some of the training, imagine that.

 

[boomer3112]

I'm going to have to go with Stuponfucious on this one emap, you obviously have no idea about anything military.

Firstly civilian cops and military police are trained very differently and have vastly different jobs to do.

Without taking anything away from the job they do, most rank and file MPs are glorified traffic cops, in war time they escort convoys and mark routes, in camp they help to maintain discipline, they arrest drunks and do traffic duty, but only on the base.

Saying that few straight females join the military, is quite frankly a disgraceful thing to say, many women want to serve their country and are very patriotic, they join for many reasons, some economic, some want to attend college, others still have a strong desire to help others.

These soldiers are all well trained, motivated vollunteers. They would not turn a blind eye, or ask to join in, male or female, this would be against their training and against the uniform code of military justice.

As for it being harder to get into the MPs, you can go straight to MP training from boot camp, as with any other branch of the army.

And their training is no harder than a tank crewman, infantry soldier, or any of the other 200 plus trades in the army today.

Please do not make wild assumptions about a group you know little about, and after 24 years in the army i can tell you that training and common sense easily overrides sexual desire

 

[Talulahred]

Some people should become aquainted with the actual discharge rates under DADT. Females are discharged at much higher rates than men are for homosexuality due to various factors. Some are straight women who want out. Some are straight women or lesbians who rebuffed men's advances. A great deal are probably lesbians who got caught or confessed.

Anecdotal evidence is no evidence at all.

www.sldn.org

 

[boomer3112]

"Don't fear it, Don't flaunt it"

The title above is from an article i have just read, the link is:

www.gaymilitary.ucsb.edu/PressCenter/coverage2_10_01.htm

It is an article written after the new British Army policy on gays in the military had been in practice for about 1 year.

It is well written and i think very truthful, in fact from e-mails i got from my old Regiment, which fought in the recent Iraq war, they had 3 openly gay soldiers in their ranks, 2 men and 1 women, and they are an Artillery unit!

It seems that our policy is working, and everyone over here says the "don't ask, Don't tell" policy is a huge failure.

As it says in the article, sexual policy now applies to all, hetro and gay, if your conduct brings the military into disrepute you will be disciplined.

Maybe its time the US military stepped into the 21st century and bit the gay bullet

 

[John Doe]

Re: "Don't fear it, Don't flaunt it"

The title above is from an article i have just read, the link is:

www.gaymilitary.ucsb.edu/PressCenter/coverage2_10_01.htm

It is an article written after the new British Army policy on gays in the military had been in practice for about 1 year.

It is well written and i think very truthful, in fact from e-mails i got from my old Regiment, which fought in the recent Iraq war, they had 3 openly gay soldiers in their ranks, 2 men and 1 women, and they are an Artillery unit!

It seems that our policy is working, and everyone over here says the "don't ask, Don't tell" policy is a huge failure.

As it says in the article, sexual policy now applies to all, hetro and gay, if your conduct brings the military into disrepute you will be disciplined.

Maybe its time the US military stepped into the 21st century and bit the gay bullet

Interesting idea, but unfortunately military policy is influenced far too much by public opinion.