Does true equality Exist??

[Synnerman]

I posed the question in the hopes of making some people think. How vain I must be. Many of the replys to this thread have been thought out above and beyond the question. The answers I am getting are forceing me to think. Thats a good thing.

I see now that I phrased my question so broadly as to preclude a definative answer. I have spent the better part of the last twenty four hours and all of the last three hours trying to narrow the question to answerable size. I cannot. Therefore, I will answer as if all of you had asked me the same questions. Maybe that will show what direction my thinking was going when I started the thread.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Does true equality Exist??

Not when it comes to being accepted as a person. Too many decisions are made and then changed after the color of skin is seen. Or the personel mgr. who says they would not have sent the applicant a notice for interview if they knew J. A. Jones stood for Julie Anne Jones instead of John A. Jones. And if hired at the same time I would bet John started at a higher salary than Julie based solely on gender. Remember, this is my premise and I am stating they both have the same everything except gender.

What is the level of equality today?

I honestly don't know either. I see enough to know I would have to try a little harder and have a little better education and be a little luckier if I was not white.

Is profiling a reality?

Yes. There is a lot of rationalizing going around as to why and I will not say that there are not some legit reasons for a small amount but not the extent I see happening every day.

Does being black get you stopped by the police more often?

I am refering to random stops. Not based on a description of a suspect. The only offence being DWB. That stands for Driving While Black.

Are there some states more than others where it would be better to not be black?

In my opinion, a resounding YES I will leave it at that.

Ladies, do you receive equal pay for equal work?

I think this one is a no brainer. NO.

Do promotions go to the most qualified?

No. Women and minorities are not strangers to being passed over because of race or gender. Yes sometimes the other person really was better qualified but not always.

Tell me Jose, Does the father of that cute little redhead welcome you into the family with open arms?

So there is no mistake. Jose is Mexican and the cute little redhead is the lily white Homecoming Queen at the local high school. The answer is most likely, Hell No.

Just my opinions. Maybe shared, maybe not.

 

[Synnerman]

Stolen from above.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Why can't people remember this?

 

[Ishmael]

Equality

The only equality that one should strive for is Equality of Rights. Subordinant to that are the right of equal access to the legal system for redress of wrongs, and equal application of the law via the courts.

But I'll jump in here and give a specific instance based on your original post Synnerman.

Equal pay for equal work.

Assume that I am an officer of a growing company, and that I am hiring individuals for a professional position. I interview the candidates and decide to make two people an offer, one being a man, the other a woman. I construct a "letter of offer" to both, offering both the same starting salary. Invariably, the man will respond by negotiating the starting salary, the woman will accept the offer as tendered. Who limited who here? (BTW This IS precisely reason that the demographics of purchasers of Saturn vehicles are noticably weighted to single females. The companies 'no negotiation' policy. The company took that trait into account when formulating it's policy. DUH)

Three years pass.

The two people that I hired have performed well. They are equal in all respects with regard to job performance. Both have married and are in stable relationships.

It so happens that I have some money in the budget to send someone to a management training course. I can send one, but not both. Given the equality of performance, how do I decide? Flip a coin? Hardly. The man will go. Why? Well, they are both likely to start families soon. The woman is most likely going to want to 'take some time off' to bond with her child. (This is to be expected, and quite frankly, applauded. It indicates to me that she has her priorities in order.) The male employee is not likely to do so. During this leave of absence, I have to either replace this employee, or run the company short handed. If I replace the employee, then when the employee who took the leave of absence returns, I have to terminate someone. Regardless, this is a big inconvenience to my company.

Fair? Nope, not even going to pretend that it is. But it should be remembered that as an officer of the company my fiduciary responsibility is to the company, the stock holders, and all of the employee's, not the individual. The wants and needs of any one employee are subordinate to the needs of the company. My decision is based on the companies needs, not fairness.

Not being the government, I do not have the option of robbing (collecting taxes) the general populace, at gun point if neccessary, to fill my companies coffers so that I can afford to give everyone, everything they want.

Ishmael

 

[Synnerman]

Ishmael, I will not fault your reasoning nor your decision. It was based on solid business judgement, not on gender. I would also add that the man showed more drive by negotiating rather than accepting. But equal treatment is not in question here. However the lady, not knowing your reasoning, may not see it that way. If she fails to ask the question she may put your decision down to gender alone.

 

[Ishmael]

Or????????

Ishmael, I will not fault your reasoning nor your decision. It was based on solid business judgement, not on gender. I would also add that the man showed more drive by negotiating rather than accepting. But equal treatment is not in question here. However the lady, not knowing your reasoning, may not see it that way. If she fails to ask the question she may put your decision down to gender alone.

Or to race, or culture, or to any one of a number of things that people use as an excuse for not having recieved what they thought that they deserved.

And quite frankly, my decision WAS gender biased. A sound business decision none the less.

As a general rule, there are exceptions, the more successful of women are those that have left their child bearing years behind, or have primarily finished raising their families.

As a final note, the man did note neccessarily show more drive. He behaved in a manner consistent with the priorities that he had chosen. His job performance wasn't any better or worse than the woman's.

Ishmael

 

[sch00lteacher]

Has anyone else been paying attention to the study findings coming out that blacks are stopped more often for speeding because they speed more than others???

 

[Unclebill]

Originally posted by MechaBlade
Synn has probably got enough posts on this already, but here's another. No one is equal, so there will never be equality. Such is the problem with communism.

The problem with communism as with every other form of collectivism is that it seeks to force equality of outcome, not an equality that can be achieved. The goals and implementations of collectivism are destructive to the life and happiness of man.

Collectivism embraces the concrete bound mentality that can only perceive equality in some quantifiable physical terms that seeks to impose this ludicrous and destructive idea on mankind as a good thing. Even with hundreds of years of history and many civilizations proving the futility of collectivism, there are many people who continue to buy into the dichotomies it offers and try to impose it on people in just one more effort to prove that the viciously destructive ideology of collectivism will provide Utopia.

The fact that people are willing to reject the principles of freedom which have proved enormously successful and accept a collectivist system which has proven time and again to fail and destroy never ceases to amaze me.

 

[Synnerman]

Has anyone else been paying attention to the study findings coming out that blacks are stopped more often for speeding because they speed more than others???

I would be interested in the methods used to conduct that study.
Is it because more convictions make one conclude the stop was justified in the first place? I wonder. Of course no peace officer would make a stop and write something up to justify it. No, it must be something else.

Without knowing the study methods, I conclude the findings are worthless. Of course if the methods become known I could possibly change my conclussion.

 

[Ishmael]

The "Study"

I would be interested in the methods used to conduct that study.
Is it because more convictions make one conclude the stop was justified in the first place? I wonder. Of course no peace officer would make a stop and write something up to justify it. No, it must be something else.

Without knowing the study methods, I conclude the findings are worthless. Of course if the methods become known I could possibly change my conclussion.

This study was commishioned by the N.J. State Police as a part of their investigation into "racial profiling" as ordered by the Governor.

The test was conducted by having a radar 'trap' set up on the Jersey Turnpike and I think the Garden State Parkway also. All speeders were noted, and a group further down the road used optical equipment to note the race of the driver. Although State Police were present, the actual operators of the radar and the people that accumulated the date were NOT state officials. No stops or arrests were made during the tests.

It was found that blacks were speeding far out of proportion to their percentage of the base population. The results of the test were buried having been believed to be far to 'politically' volitale. But an official in the state made the test available to some members of the press. It has been published now, but not by the main stream press. One wonders why?

Ishmael

 

[Synnerman]

Re: The "Study"

This study was commishioned by the N.J. State Police as a part of their investigation into "racial profiling" as ordered by the Governor.

The test was conducted by having a radar 'trap' set up on the Jersey Turnpike and I think the Garden State Parkway also. All speeders were noted, and a group further down the road used optical equipment to note the race of the driver. Although State Police were present, the actual operators of the radar and the people that accumulated the date were NOT state officials. No stops or arrests were made during the tests.

It was found that blacks were speeding far out of proportion to their percentage of the base population. The results of the test were buried having been believed to be far to 'politically' volitale. But an official in the state made the test available to some members of the press. It has been published now, but not by the main stream press. One wonders why?

Ishmael

Conclusion altered. Thankyou. Very interesting. I would enjoy seeing the full text. I have copied what was said and will seek it out if I can.