Does shame exist?

[catalina_francisco]

In many instances, online and in r/l, shame is referred to as an experienced state, especially, perhaps exclusively by sub/slaves. It brings to mind a conversation I had with someone a couple of years ago which unfortunately was cut short and never resumed in which the person I was speaking with believed shame was no longer existant in our contempory society. Their theory was many feel embarrassment, but mistake this, and misname it as shame, in essence a much deeper and more humiliating emotion/state than embarrassment. I am interested in hearing the perceptions of others on this...I am still processing my own thoughts on it but will contribute to the discussion in the hope I come to a more defined understanding.

Catalina

 

[Never]

Shame is ubiquitous in society and is certainly not limited to subs. I think the only place shame doesn't exist is on the Real World and Donahue.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

... I am interested in hearing the perceptions of others on this...

Let's have your definition of shame and then embarrassment first.

 

[Never]

These are the definitions I’m working off of -
Shame:
1. A painful emotion resulting from an awareness of inadequacy or guilt
2. A state of dishonor.

Embarrassment:
1. The shame you feel when your inadequacy or guilt is made public
2. The state of Feeling or being caused to feel uneasy and self-conscious

 

[AngelicAssassin]

These are the definitions I’m working off of -
Shame:
1. A painful emotion resulting from an awareness of guilt
2. A state of dishonor.

Yep ... painfully aware of this one.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Re: Re: Does shame exist?

Let's have your definition of shame and then embarrassment first.

Guess the understanding I have of both words in relation to this are:

Embarrassment: feeling disturbed or self conscious.

Shame: a state of disgrace or intense regret; a feeling of distress or humiliation caused by consciousness of guilt.

And yes, I agree with you Never that these feelings should not be limited to subs, but include the larger world as well, but thought it more relevant to relate it to this community and/or lifestyle.

 

[Never]

I think that anytime you have internalized prejudices, you'll find shame. Certainly then, those that are part of 'deviant' cultures are more apt to find shame in their desires. Those that identify as sadists or dom/mes would feel more as our culture seems to see those activities as being 'evil and dangerous' while their compliments are perhaps sick or horribly victimized.

BDSM culture tends to think of BDSM in highly romanticized terms, which makes shame more likely.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Shame is ubiquitous in society and is certainly not limited to subs. I think the only place shame doesn't exist is on the Real World and Donahue.

LMAO.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Defiitely shame exists. The management of shame is very big in training a male submissive.

 

[Pure]

I don't think 'shame' has been well defined. It differs from guilt. But given the ridicule of googling and actually looking at reference material, I'm not going hunting right now.

J.

 

[Netzach]

Shame doesn't exist in contemporary society????

Obviously they don't know my family.


I love the phrase shame management. Shame management consultant, there's a good euphemism for being a prodomme.

 

[Desdemona]

I think shame exists (except on certain TV shows including Jerry Springer).

In my mind, shame is a somewhat deeper emotion than guilt or embarrassment.

I also believe there is a healthy version of shame and if its intact, it helps to prevent us from repeating certain acts. For instance:

Its embarrassing to accidentally pass gass in front of someone in a social setting.

You might feel guilty for cheating on your diet.

You might feel shame after doing something you or society considers heinous.

I also believe certain versions of shame can be unhealthy. For instance, shame about your sexual needs or your body image might prevent you from being open with your partner.

 

[RisiaSkye]

Shame doesn't exist in contemporary society????

Obviously they don't know my family.

Amen to that. Or ditto, if you prefer.

And Never, as usual, you're right on target.

RS

 

[A Desert Rose]

I also believe there is a healthy version of shame and if its intact, it helps to prevent us from repeating certain acts. For instance:

You might feel shame after doing something you or society considers heinous.

Only if you have a conscience, Des. And that is at the crux of what real shame is all about. If you don't have one, you don't know what real shame is.

 

[Desdemona]

Only if you have a conscience, Des. And that is at the crux of what real shame is all about. If you don't have one, you don't know what real shame is.

True. But are we talking about sociopaths or just regular people? lol

 

[A Desert Rose]

True. But are we talking about sociopaths or just regular people? lol

or people like us?

You left that option off.... LOL

 

[Desdemona]

or people like us?

You left that option off.... LOL

*snickers*

 

[A Desert Rose]

But seriously, you are right, sociopaths have no conscience and that is what differentiates them from the general public. (I have no stats because I don't know how to google. ... LOL oh my, here comes that onery person again... back! back I say!)

My point is that shame and a conscience go hand in hand. One cannot be felt without having the other.

 

[Bachlum Chaam]

Guilt is an internal feeling of wrongdoing or external where you have been caught in a minor wrongdoing

Shame is something you cannot get over i.e. an utter disgrace as opposed to a minor wrongdoing

Subs have no need to feel shame they are true to themselves

 

[A Desert Rose]

Subs have no need to feel shame they are true to themselves

Excellent point..... almost as good as mine.




LMAO.... (you know I'm kidding about the last part, right?)

 

[Bachlum Chaam]

LMAO.... (you know I'm kidding about the last part, right?) [/B]

No

 

[A Desert Rose]

No

I troll your posts... did you know that?

 

[Bachlum Chaam]

I troll your posts... did you know that?

May one enquire why, also I can think of nothing better my lady

 

[A Desert Rose]

May one enquire why, also I can think of nothing better my lady

I will PM you.

;-)

 

[catalina_francisco]

To me shame is often simplified and a very much deeper emotion than embarrassment which can result from being aware of something pertaining to your character no-one else is, or may ever be, aware of. I equate it with feeling mortified to the point of possibly encountering extreme difficulty in facing anyone, even without their knowledge of your dilemma.

To me people can suffer embarassment often, and just as quickly recover from it, though some may find it more difficult and longer lasting depending on their make up. Shame on the other hand IMO tends to be debilitating in it's effects, damaging the self image a person has of themselves, and remaining with them for a long time if not forever.

I know many speak of shame as something they have experienced, but I question if indeed it is shame in all cases or just an extremely embarrassing situation they would have preferred to not endured. It is common for some submissives/slaves to express feeling shame over things their dominant requires of them...but is it shame deep down? Is it what they truly feel or more a reaction out of fear of what others may think?

For instance, a sub who says they would feel shame at being expected to spend an evening completely naked and available in the company of their dominant and friends....Would it still be shame, or rather embarassment, if they found they felt okay as soon as they aclimatised to the situation, or saw approval in the eyes of their dominant or others? I think this is what the person who raised the subject in conversation was alluding to. He felt times had changed to a point it was no longer possible for anyone to experience true shame, the type that exists over matters no-one else but the person experiencing the shame knows of. I am still processing it myself.

C