Does D/s HAVE to include BDSM?

[Luvinit]

Does one have to engage in bondage, physical discipline, sadism and/or masochism to have a complete D/s relationship? If so, why?

 

[Xelebes]

Nope. Just the simple answer.

 

[Vixandra]

Luv- I don't believe so.
If person X wants to submit to person Y wihtout anything else, then go for it. Whatever rocks thier boat, so to speak.

Does it happen often- I don't believe so, but I don't know for certain.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Does it happen often- I don't believe so, but I don't know for certain.

Hi Vix,

Actually there have been quite a few of us lately who have posted about wanting D/S, and the mental side of this whole thing, without the bondage or the pain.

But they've all been newbies, and I seem to be the only one who has that preference who posts regularly, as far as I know. The others seem to go away soon. Maybe can't find enough here for them?

I'm probably still here because my fantasies are harder core, though. (Still non-consent -- but Still no bondage and often no pain, just force. Things like blackmail, assault while sleeping, or gangrape with no hitting, stuff like that.) Also because I like a little pain (hickies) and things like having my wrists held by his bare hands, just not into straps and gadgets.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Should add that there isn't really a category for us in the library. The closest we get is a little on Mindgames -- which ends up veeering off into Mindfuck, which is pretty hardcore. There are a couple of recent threads though that talk about it a little. Some of the Humiliation stuff fits. Some of the Mind Control stuff. Things like Shadowsdreams On You Knees thread is D/S, and doesn't have to be taken to BDSM.

Sorry if I'm not making this clearer. I feel like I've been spending the last few months here trying to piece it together for myself, with occasional help. There isn't a Story category for it. You have to sift through Some of the bdsm stuff, or just go for some particular fetishy aspect, like Anal, which might have relevant stories. I've also found some in non-Human, even. Try a werewolf story called Full Moon Rising. Very hot. No pain, no bondage, no hypnosis or even non-consent. Just force of will. It Does have that D/S feel. Also bdsmlibrary.com allows you to search by complex and narrow interests with their advanced search functions. And while I don't think their story quality is as good, that's where I found my First story ever that got me hot that didn't involve non-consent. It was bondage light between a loving couple and had lots of playful stuff, and much d/s. (did still have that bondage though, though that wasn't the hottest part.)

Can you tell me if you find anything else good? I'm looking for other related websites right now.

 

[Vixandra]

Hi Vix,

Actually there have been quite a few of us lately who have posted about wanting D/S, and the mental side of this whole thing, without the bondage or the pain.

But they've all been newbies, and I seem to be the only one who has that preference who posts regularly, as far as I know. The others seem to go away soon. Maybe can't find enough here for them?

I'm probably still here because my fantasies are harder core, though. (Still non-consent -- but Still no bondage and often no pain, just force. Things like blackmail, assault while sleeping, or gangrape with no hitting, stuff like that.) Also because I like a little pain (hickies) and things like having my wrists held by his bare hands, just not into straps and gadgets.

I stand corrected then.
I suppose the reason I thought there weren't that many is I don't hear of it very often- a D/s relationship without any form of bondage/pain/SM'ism.
Straps and gadgets should be augmentations to an already fertile relationship, I think, not the end all be all of the relationship. I think the mental side of it is more important.
Upon contemplation, I suppose that there may be something more "pure" about a submissive bound not by pain or any duress but by her own desire to serve by her own fear of Sir's Displeasure.
Something to consider now, Phionex...

 

[Luvinit]

I'm still of the mind that submissiveness is not about the sex. The toys and other sexual paraphernalia seem more like "play" in my mind than what it is that holds this submissive to her Dominant.

Although there is some sexual restriction in our D/s relationship (I'm no longer allowed to masturbate without permission), we haven't seen the need to include restraints, whips or other painful or restricting accoutrements in the bedroom. The mental aspect of His domination over me seems to be all that is needed to keep me in line.

I started thinking, what if I'm just a poser? What if what I'm feeling isn't D/s at all?

OTOH, what would happen if one were to take the BDSM completely out of the D/s relationship? Does the D/s relationship cease to exist? I think not. BDSM just may be a delicious addition to a D/s pairing, but I don't feel its inclusion defines D/s completely.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I think what is being missed here in part is that the term BDSM as an overarching term defines bondage and discipline + domination and submission + sadism and masochism. That is the recognised meaning of the term. As Xelebes and Vix have said, D/s is possible without the other aspects, but are also unusual, though not rare as some think. And yes, BDSM, D/s etc., are more often about more than just sex....some do not even include sex in the relationship at all.

As explained to PS in another thread, the mental aspects are what underlay the whole lifestyle, whether you choose to limit it to sexual submission, domestic service, or whatever mix tickles your fancy. Without a feeling and desire to mentally accept for whatever period of time you engage in any activity, be it part time or 24/7 that there is an element of domination and submission at work, you are going to be just role playing the whole thing, or at the other end of the spectrum, being abused. Some of us enjoy the pain aspects and do not consider it anything like play...LOL, especially when you are bleeding from whatever you have been engaging in...it doesn't taint the mental aspects of it though.

Not sure I can agree with PS seeing gangrape as sheer force without pain or physical aspects. I think most who have been on the receiving end will tell you whether they go along with it because of fear, blackmail, or whatever, there is pain, both physical and mental. Now if referring to gangbangs, it may be different, but then that is consensual, not to be confused with non consensual rape.

Catalina

 

[Luvinit]

I should explain that when I referred to "play" it was how I would see it, not what others would experience. If I were trussed up in some fashion and flogged, or forced to insert a butt plug before going grocery shopping, or were given any other demeaning commands, I would go through with it, but it isn't those things that make me submissive. It isn't those things that I crave or that fulfills my submissive needs. My submissiveness seems to fall on some other plane from the sexual or physical aspect of the D/s relationship.

Did that make sense?

 

[cb_63]

I should explain that when I referred to "play" it was how I would see it, not what others would experience. If I were trussed up in some fashion and flogged, or forced to insert a butt plug before going grocery shopping, or were given any other demeaning commands, I would go through with it, but it isn't those things that make me submissive. It isn't those things that I crave or that fulfills my submissive needs. My submissiveness seems to fall on some other plane from the sexual or physical aspect of the D/s relationship.

Did that make sense?

It does to me

 

[ownedsubgal]

D/s and BDSM are two completely separate things. when i was learning about the lifestyle, that was among the first lesson. yes, the "DS"in BDSM mean dominance and submission, but they refer to SEXUAL dominance and submission...something a world apart from D/s and the D/s lifestyle.

the life i live with my Master is D/s, and bdsm makes up a very small part of our sex life. it is definitely nothing our relationship revolves around or something we could not do without. however, we do not consider physical discipline (talking REAL discipline here) to fall under the BDSM label. and a few other things in our relationship would probably seem like BDSM to outsiders, but are certaintly...not. to use a bad analogy....D/s for us is the ice cream, the bowl the ice is placed in, the spoon you use to eat the ice cream. bdsm would be the sprinkles on top. can be a nice addition sometimes...but the ice cream would be just as delicious without it.

as for how common D/s relationships without bdsm are...i would say very common, to the point where the vast majority of D/s relationships do NOT involve bdsm at all. at least when we are referring to D/s in literal terms, as a Dominant and a submissive, a Man and a woman, living and loving together as nature intended.

(edited to add, though BDSM to me means the sexual, it does not necessarily mean an actual sex act must be involved. but BDSM imo is about the erotic...on some level, in some way, the things done are sexually stimulating to one or all of those involved...and that is WHY they are done, for the erotic thrill of it. Master tying his girl up because it turns him on just to see her so. BDSM pure and simple...however when it's coming from someplace else...when it's not because of a turn-on or erotic urge or sexual kick, even on a minor level...then regardless of the actual activity, that is not BDSM in my eyes but good old-fashioned D/s. Master tying up his girl because she hates to be tied up and she's done something she was not supposed to do, has disappointed him, and he must make her suffer. that's D/s.

 

[barcaboy]

What a great subject to open up. So huge I had to fall into it.

I really dig (yeah, man, that's what I said - dig ) all the permutations and malleabilities of the erotic force, as it asserts its feisty inclinations despite society's best efforts to categorize and contain it.

Submissives not into pain, masochists who don't want to be bossed around, come on down.

Groveling humiliants and avid servants raised by their service, come on down.

Watchers caught up in vicarious delight and performers lost in the ecstasy of the act, come on down.

Flagrant exhibitionists and the intensely private and unseen, come on down.

Monogamists true to their souls and promiscuous fiends with blazing hearts, come on down.

Lovers of constraint - bondagees and mummies and devotees of enclosed spaces - come on down.

Untrammeled spirits that want to submit but rebel at ropes and clamps and duct tape - get out, we don't want you here.

Just kidding. You, too.

The invisible leash that tethers the bounds of being, the doing of unpainful yet ego-dampening things, is a whole phenomenon worth exploring and expanding, one that sometimes gets lost among the gnarly apparatus.

Not that there's anything wrong with equipment. I like giving open-handed spankings, but without paddles and floggers and such my hand would get all swollen and tired (aww).

Non-consent, deprivation of choice, is kind of a neat twist on submitting - you give without being able to resist. The luxury of guilt-free willlessness. A lightness finer than air. And you don't even have to be tied up!

Not to even mention all the themes and variations of possible atmosphere, relationship, and apparel that can charge and liven surrender, one self giving way to another...a deep-sea voyage to be continued, I'm sure, here and elsewhere, forever.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I should explain that when I referred to "play" it was how I would see it, not what others would experience. If I were trussed up in some fashion and flogged, or forced to insert a butt plug before going grocery shopping, or were given any other demeaning commands, I would go through with it, but it isn't those things that make me submissive. It isn't those things that I crave or that fulfills my submissive needs. My submissiveness seems to fall on some other plane from the sexual or physical aspect of the D/s relationship.

Did that make sense?

Perfect sense as submission is about submitting in whatever way the Dominant chooses, not doing what it is you choose to do and hope they understand. As you say, if he asked you to do the physical things, you would as part of your submission...not to be confused with being thought to be the sum of your or anyone's submission. And I disagree with osg's thoughts that D/s or dominance/submission if plainer in the term of BDSM means only sexual domination and submission...I have yet to read any definition which states it is meant as sexual, but many which explain the psychological aspects as the fabric of D/s. As I have said there are many people for whom sex is not even a part of the relationship, who still consider themselves part of the BDSM community. As osg will tell you, they themselves engage in various sexual activities which she has said she sees as her submitting to his will whether she enjoys them or not, and which I would see as part of their D/s, but not the whole. This discussion raises it's head repeatedly and is not about my BDSM is better than yours because I do ABC and you do XYZ...it is al part of the same community, but like any community, some people like to get up early, others like to sleep in, and some may sleep in on Sunday only as a special treat...doesn't mean one belongs and the other doesn't, one is better than the other, just they are different.

Catalina

 

[Phoenix Stone]

As explained to PS in another thread, the mental aspects are what underlay the whole lifestyle,

Actually I was well aware of this point before it was 'explained to me' in that other thread.
Just didn't see any point in saying so at the time. My point then, as now, is to explore, find out about, etc those areas that are D/s, and that don't include pain or bondage. There is LOTs of info on pain and bondage. Very easy to find. The other one has to pick out in bits.

I understand that now, as then, you were discussion the underlying mental aspects. I then, as now, was interested more in how those aspects play themsselves out -- what one Does -- as I already knew that, at least for me, d/s underlies things.

Without a feeling and desire to mentally accept for whatever period of time you engage in any activity, be it part time or 24/7 that there is an element of domination and submission at work, you are going to be just role playing the whole thing, or at the other end of the spectrum, being abused.

(Now I feel like adding that, for some, of course, Sensation is more prominent, and is perhaps, for them, what underlies the whole thing. Intensity of sensation, rather than control. While it is true for Me, that submission is the mental aspect that underlies the whole thing, I can also see how someone else, the Sensation seeker mentioned above, for instance, might feel that they are not at all playing a role, as for them, something else underlies the experience, and is, to Them, basic to bdsm.

Not sure I can agree with PS seeing gangrape as sheer force without pain or physical aspects. I think most who have been on the receiving end will tell you whether they go along with it because of fear, blackmail, or whatever, there is pain, both physical and mental. Now if referring to gangbangs, it may be different, but then that is consensual, not to be confused with non consensual rape.
Catalina

Catalina, I didn't say that gangrape is sheer force without pain.
And never did I say that any of this had no physical aspects, except in that I was referring -- Very Specifically, and noted as such -- to my FANTASY life, not my sex life, not what I wanted for MYSELF, which is the part I given, separately, in the first paragraph. I said there that I am interested in the mental aspects without pain or bondage, as except for a couple of minor exceptions, I don't enjoy them, nor are they central to anything about d/s to me, nor are they necessary. (And thankfully, Sir Hubby is disinterested. If he was interested, I would of course comply. Adding that, because I can see that unless I add all these caveats and explanations each time I post, assumptions will be made otherwise.)

As it was FANTASY I was referring to, there, can of course, be all of the above (gangrape etc) with no pain -- there can even be pigs that fly. That is the beauty of fantasy.

Pain is irrelevant, and not central, to these fantasies that I have -- which is an important point for me. I didn't say there was no violence involved, but did specify no hitting and no pain (for some reason, the expression I like to give my fantasy women, if not blankness, is surprise or pouting annoyance.)

It seemed like it would be getting off topic to get into such detail about my fantasies, and I'm still leaving out plenty. What I left in were the parts that seemed relevant to the point I was trying to make about the dearth of d/s around without pain or bondage, and why I'm still on this board, despite that. I STILL haven't given the whole story there, either, as that too, seems off-point.

Do I have to explain, as I have here before, that not only am I intimately familiar with real rape, (and barely escaped an unpleasantly close familiarity with gangrape,) I found them to be singularly unpleasant experiences, at best, comparable to having one's throat forcibly swabbed while undergoing deep thoughts of one's own mortality. (Luckily that one was significantly small-dicked.) I'd rather be in a car crash, or give birth after a 37 hour labor without anesthesia, both of which I've also done, and which were decidely much more physically painful. And I was a virgin that first time. I may have gone numb, of course.

Btw, ONE of the things that finally decided me on exploring my sexuality, first on a non-consent board, and then here, is deciding that since the fantasies were mine and both pre- and post- dated being attacked (they were the first fantasies I'd had, as a very young child), I wasn't going to let them take that away from me too. (I did try to change them in therapy first. No go.)

The 'real thing' had absolutely no affect on my fantasies except to make me feel guilty about them. In fact, my little joke with myself, is that the worse thing about real rape is that it ruins a perfectly good fantasy -- but then, I've always been a sicko.

Please ask first, rather than assuming.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

... all the permutations and malleabilities of the erotic force, as it asserts its feisty inclinations despite society's best efforts to categorize and contain it.

...come on down.

You forgot to mention "...when it's not because of a turn-on or erotic urge or sexual kick, even on a minor level." A la osg.
Bdsm that must have Not the slightest Bit of sexual kick to it to qualify as D/s which is, of course, the Only True and Exalted form of d/s, not to mention...
" ...a Dominant and a submissive, a Man and a woman, living and loving together as nature intended." ( ) No, I wouldn't even TOUCH that one.



Ps. Hi. (See I Can't shut up. At least not until I've deepened the purity of my submission. )

 

[RavenSpirit2k4]

Actually, I've heard of this quite a bit, a D/s relationship outside of "normal" (whatever that is) BDSM. I don't think that makes you a poser, not at all. The BDSM group I was initially trained in made certain to point the difference out to us. I was surprised to later find that so many people didn't realize there was such a thing as D/s like you're talking about.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Please ask first, rather than assuming.

Sorry you feel assumptions were made here as opposed to open discussion which you have often, just as we all have, initiated....I apologise if you have felt it was meant in this way or you felt you needed to defend yourself by going into personal experiences. As you have, so have I often felt offended by what is said both in this thread and others, but have also learned over time it is often not what is meant, nor what is understood at that point by another. I am a bit with pagan switch in that I just find it surprising people often don't realise that this type D/s exists and to most is the basis of the whole lifestyle choice, whether they include pain or not. To a large degree I feel this misconception is due to the porn industry and the huge supply of material which depicts the physical and pain elements.

I for one am one who is an extreme masochist who is with an extreme sadist, but that is just a small part of the bigger picture and does not exist in isolation, nor happen on a daily basis as our mental does, nor does it enforce or fuel the D/s. Actually my fantasies are most often 100% focused around the mental aspects and very rarely pain or physical enforcement. Perhaps the picture I often get from your posts (and maybe I am just reading them wrong) is because to me they are often emphasising that what you see as the mental aspects are hard to find and not appreciated by many when most here and on the more informative and respected sites are continually speaking of their place in their lives, but not separating them out as an either/or situation as that is simply not how they live it. To me they often sound judgemental in that what you seek is to you rare and special when it is reality for many, not better. worse, or obscure, just the air they breathe.

Even cruising porn sites in the last month I have come across clips and pics depicting the mental aspect, but are not seen as often because they are not as easy to photograph and convey the message, especially in huge variety as opposed to physical pain play, nor are they sensationalist material which make money for sites to survive on. There is a huge market for the sensationalist porn variety....reality as lived does not make as much money, and as such is harder to find as there simply is not the supply and demand dynamic to support it.

As I and others have said before, there is no competition with what is the 'real' or 'best' way to enjoy D/s, nor do many find they remain in the same place in five years as they are in today.....they grow, they change, they move through different phases of the journey, they evolve. That does not mean that someone who has been experiencing it for 5 years is any better or more true than someone who has been venturing for 5 months...it is about being open to explore and find what works for you at any particular time, with the particular people you are involved with, and learning as you move forward on your own personal journey at your own pace and comfort level. Open discussion is what promotes that growth, allows everyone to learn from each other, and gives a diverse view of what realities exist and work for everyone.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

No of course it doesn't.

Unless you're with me, then believe me, it does.

LOL.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Sorry you feel assumptions were made here as opposed to open discussion which you have often, just as we all have, initiated....I apologise if you have felt it was meant in this way or you felt you needed to defend yourself by going into personal experiences. As you have, so have I often felt offended by what is said both in this thread and others, but have also learned over time it is often not what is meant, nor what is understood at that point by another.

Agreed. The first place I thought assumptions were made was here:

"Not sure I can agree with PS seeing gangrape as sheer force without pain or physical aspects." This is CERTAINLY not how I see gangrape. (The non-pain part is just how I like to fantasize it. And I can't see How I could imagine a non-physical gangrape. Ghosts perhaps?)

I am a bit with pagan switch in that I just find it surprising people often don't realise that this type D/s exists and to most is the basis of the whole lifestyle choice, whether they include pain or not. To a large degree I feel this misconception is due to the porn industry and the huge supply of material which depicts the physical and pain elements.

I agree with this, got that this is what surprises you, and is what You have been discussing. (It's not however what I'VE been talking about, because for me that's a given or I wouldn't be here, because it would then, certainly dis-include me -- as bondage and pain are, at most, like osg's sprinkles on the ice cream.)

Perhaps the picture I often get from your posts (and maybe I am just reading them wrong)

Assumptions. Yes, you are reading them wrong.

is because to me they are often emphasising that what you see as the mental aspects are hard to find

Yes. When it comes to actions. What to do about them. (OTHER THAN pain or bondage.) How to enjoy them, increase them, bring them on. General, abstract pontification, however, is everywhere.

and not appreciated by many

Nopity NOPE. It is clear to me that they are appreciated. But most here seem to use pain and mechanical bondage as Means.

when most here and on the more informative and respected sites are continually speaking of their place in their lives,

Read Pontification, above.

but not separating them out as an either/or situation as that is simply not how they live it.

huh? They certainly separate out all the various Means to pain and bondage. Whips, types of knots, not letting the nipples turn blue when constricting them. Lots of info and detail about the MEANS of pain and bondage, to achieve the End of D/S. I've little interest in those particular means, so I don't read there much. But there is little else here, or elsewhere, for other means to that end, or even a recognition that such exist. Things like Mind Control even seem to be seen as peripheral, in a way that, say, Shibui (sp?) is not. The 'On your knees' thread is one of the few I've seen anyone else do that discusses d/s means that are mental, and not pain or bondage related (I'm ignoring humiliation right now, to avoid further complication.)

To me they often sound judgemental in that what you seek is to you rare and special

This one made me LOL! My initial response was to feel genuine amusement and astonishment, and want to ask, Really?? YOu're kidding!

(But having re-read I'm feeling annoyed all over again, so will go with that for now. )
The INFO I'm looking for is, meager. ('rare and special'? tee hee. too much. Overlooked and ignored, is more what I was thinking.) There seems to be a scattering of info in a number of places, and I think I'll start a thread, linking what I can put together.

when it is reality for many, not better. worse, or obscure, just the air they breathe.

Yeah, I got it, I got it. The air they breathe. (Very high-falutin', that sounds to me. ) I'm not one of those better or worse people. Going there just doesnt interest me. But I DO seem to get angry and self-righteous when Other people get into that 'better or worse' shit. (But only because I'm Better than they are. In other words, I'm onto my own shit and recognize what a contradiction that is, in case you don't get my humor, which is likely. I TRY to be tolerant of the intolerant, just have a hard time getting there. And, no, I don't think you intolerant, or that you are one of those 'better or worse' people. Anymore, anyway, than any of us think that what we are doing is awfully darn good.)

As I and others have said before, there is no competition with what is the 'real' or 'best' way to enjoy D/s,

Thank you for telling me. I would never have known otherwise. And of course, what I do in my own bedroom (and the rest of the house) is all about competition with strangers, to me. (Yes, that Was sarcasm. And yes, it Does mean that I find your saying this, and the assumption that appears to be behind your repeating it to me, condescending, and yes, insulting.)

Open discussion is what promotes that growth, allows everyone to learn from each other, and gives a diverse view of what realities exist and work for everyone.
Catalina

I COULD take this as a very nice, expansive pontification... or I could notice that it is what you started and ended your post with, and wonder if you think that I am somehow against open discussion.

If so, what is a closed discussion?
And does that mean that you think I've somehow tried to shut you up? By saying I've felt assumptions were made about me?

(yeah, I do really mean the flower, despite my tone of annoyance. I feel misunderstood -- I don't feel like you are trying to be mean or anything.)

 

[catalina_francisco]

PS, it is clear you are feeling defensive and to that end I see little I can do at this point to move you from that stance. You do say you bypass many of the areas/threads which talk about particular techniques etc., which though maybe not to your interest, is why I now understand why you keep saying you are not seeing much of the mental aspects discussed. I kept wondering how you could miss it when it is discussed so much by so many. If you read many of those discussions you will often come across equal discussion of the mental parts of D/s, postings from people who do not necessarily limit themselves to whippings etc., or may not even get into those areas, and why I said most do not separate them out so blatently.

Also by saying I did not see them seperating mental out as a seperate issue had nothing to do with discussions about techniques and I thought would be easy to understand the difference in meaning, especially in context. I would encourage you to take a second look and you might begin to see what I and others have been trying to say in helping you find what it is you seek. You ask for help, say you are not getting it to your satisfaction, but it is there in loads if you can find another way to look at what you are reading perhaps. Is how I try and see something if I am being told it is there but don't initially see it...seek another vantage point so to speak. For instance, you seem drawn to Shadowsdream's thread 'On Your Knees', and it is good, but it is not the beginning and end of a scene, often for most it is just the beginning, a centering of sorts for what is to come, beit physical or mental D/s. That being said though, some people would concentrate more on the physical act of the submissive kneeling, and then the mental theme behind it..and some have spoken of how that physicasl act has made them feel, the position it has placed them in mentally and physically. It is much harder to spell out the mental aspects as unlike physical, they are often intangible, invisible, understood and felt not seen as such. Similarly, 'on your knees' is a command, but if not followed by the physical, symbolic in that act, not obeyed, the meaning, dynamics and outcomes change dramatically as I am sure you appreciate and understand.

Though you may read other messages into what I say, insinuate I am condescending and insulting, you might take a little time to get to know me better over time, and also go back and look at your own words which judge the whole board (just IMO perhaps), particularly your fellow newbies by saying how hard core you are (how do you know they aren't?), and how your questions are not being answered to your satisfaction here, and perhaps other newbies who have asked the same have left because there is nothing here for them. Those statements are not assuming, judgemental and fairly 'high faluting' as you put it? Maybe if as you say it is a question only asked by newbies it is because it is a common question for most of us when starting to develop an interest in this lifestyle, and for many takes time to tap into those intangible aspects which are not so easy to recognise and see. If you don't read many and/or a variety of the threads, you are judging me on a very small fraction of what I have written, and applying your own perspective to it, how they would be meant if spoken by you perhaps, not me....and no, I don't think as you that what I do is darn good...that is very alien to me in all aspects of my life. What I do and enjoy is simply what I find suits me at this space in time and is a part of my personal journey, not yours, not Anelize's, not Shadowsdream's, not anyone else's but mine, and to a large part is a mixture of who I am instinctively, the result of learning from my peers (especially those at Lit), and the guidance of my Master. Who I am today is not who I was last year, nor will be next year, it evolves and changes as I move forward.

Catalina

 

[mcfbridge]

I'll add my two cents worth here.

For me personally, bondage is actually a turnoff.

The most erotic part of the relationship is the willing complete submission of my partner. Once she is tied up, she has no choice. Since to me it's a turn on each time she choosed to obey me, I personally stay away from this.

I would think there is no requirement for a relationship, other than what turns you on. As long as whatever you're doing works for you and your partner, then it's right.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

PS, it is clear you are feeling defensive and to that end I see little I can do at this point to move you from that stance.

Not me, lady! I'm feeling pretty good.

[B
You do say you bypass many of the areas/threads which talk about particular techniques etc., which though maybe not to your interest, is why I now understand why you keep saying you are not seeing much of the mental aspects discussed. [/B]

Aaaaaaaugh! You are still not understanding me. I Know the mental aspects get discussed. LOTS of pontificating about d/s. Lots of relating D/S to said bondage and pain 'management' techniques. But I am not interested in those techniques. I HAVE looked through enough of them to know that details about say, good knot technique, isn't gonna get me there, and is just too darn technical. I DO read about spanking and some of the 'softer' stuff. I DO keep checking in. What you and I mean by 'mental aspects' appears to be far different. And yes, even in those threads that I don't keep up with as much, such discussions are what interests me. But as they relate all the mental stuff to the subject at hand, whether it be whip technique or knots, and whips and knots are not my thing, that part of it doesn't have what I'm looking for.

[B
I kept wondering how you could miss it when it is discussed so much by so many. If you read many of those discussions you will often come across equal discussion of the mental parts of D/s, postings from people who do not necessarily limit themselves to whippings etc., or may not even get into those areas, and why I said most do not separate them out so blatently. [/B]

Yes, the mental parts of d/s, the feelings, but not mental techniques. Not D/s alone and stuff, techniques, scenes, etc. that only applies to That area. Most do too separate them out Quite blatantly. They separate out the techniques and such that they are interested in. Pure pulls out an abstract area -- limits. That's one of the reasons I can get into his threads a lot more. There's more crossover, because what he's talking about are the 'mental aspects' in some depth. But when it comes to what to do, what to say, etc (and I and several other people have asked about this and gotten little help from any longtimers) there's just not much there.

Also by saying I did not see them seperating mental out as a seperate issue had nothing to do with discussions about techniques and I thought would be easy to understand the difference in meaning, especially in context.

Huh? I don't understand this sentence. Seriously.

I would encourage you to take a second look

I look every day. Or hadn't you noticed?

and you might begin to see what I and others have been trying to say in helping you find what it is you seek. You ask for help, say you are not getting it to your satisfaction, but it is there in loads if you can find another way to look at what you are reading perhaps. Is how I try and see something if I am being told it is there but don't initially see it...seek another vantage point so to speak.

Uh, not to get really boring here, but I keep asking for a hammer, and you keep trying to get me to take the nails. They really aren't gonna do the job. I am looking for something different than what you are trying to get me to take and insisting I don't get. (Gonna do a thread that includes what I HAVE found, soon. If time, tonight.)

For instance, you seem drawn to Shadowsdream's thread 'On Your Knees', and it is good, but it is not the beginning and end of a scene, often for most it is just the beginning, a centering of sorts for what is to come, beit physical or mental D/s. That being said though, some people would concentrate more on the physical act of the submissive kneeling, and then the mental theme behind it..and some have spoken of how that physicasl act has made them feel, the position it has placed them in mentally and physically. It is much harder to spell out the mental aspects as unlike physical, they are often intangible, invisible, understood and felt not seen as such. Similarly, 'on your knees' is a command, but if not followed by the physical, symbolic in that act, not obeyed, the meaning, dynamics and outcomes change dramatically as I am sure you appreciate and understand.

sigh. I mentioned that thread a couple of times because it makes a good example of the simple, straightforward, D/s, but not BD or SM, stuff I'm looking for. I know it's just a beginning. (Would be interested in what kind of Mental D/s might follow to make a scene. What does that mean?)

I Don't need more talk really about how it makes people feel, I LOVe that, but don't need it. I Know you can't do it all in your head. So I'm trying to find out what D/s stuff one Can do, that doesn't involved, except minimally, BD or SM.

Though you may read other messages into what I say,

Same to you, buddy. As you said, you read into mine that I'm 'judgemental' and somehow think the form of d/s I like is 'rare and special.' (Which is a hoot.) You did, however, admit that perhaps you were reading me wrong.

insinuate I am condescending and insulting,

Oh I did, did I? Are you insinuating that I Insinuate? The Nerve!

I Never insinuate.

I don't have the power of subtlety that that requires. I did, however, ask you a couple of questions about your posts, which you haven't answered. Your lack of response, and insinuation that I'm insinuating, is leading me to jump to the conclusion, rightly or wrongly, that you Are condescending and insulting. See, I don't insinuate. If I come to a conclusion about which I'm no longer waffling, I'll say it straight out. Until then, I try to give the benefit of a doubt, and ask. Let's see -- that's 'condescending' as a state of being -- (an adjective?) And insulting as a verb, not an adjective. Doing, not Being.

you might take a little time to get to know me better over time,

hmm, is there an echo in here? That's pretty much what I asked of you, simply that next time you come out and ask, rather than assume.

and also go back and look at your own words which judge the whole board (just IMO perhaps),

Uh oh, shall I begin beating my breast? (I can smell the condescension coming on.)

particularly your fellow newbies by saying how hard core you are

Didn't say I'M hardcore. Said my fantasies are. (But I am. Just not sexually, at this point. And probably ever.)

(how do you know they aren't?),

I don't and didn't say I did. (Though at least a couple of them intimated as such -- I can go back and look up the posts if you like.) And how is MY saying that MY fantasies are hardcore, judging the board, or them, may I ask?

and how your questions are not being answered to your satisfaction here,

I don't consider it anyone's job here to answer my questions. Anymore than it is mine to answer theres. I don't think anyone is holding out on me, either. Presumably, if people thought they had answers to my questions they'd offer them if they felt like it.

and perhaps other newbies who have asked the same have left because there is nothing here for them.

I have seen several people ask similar questions, in fact at one point I had a thread going that was almost all newbies asking such questions, and there weren't answers. I don't, of course, know why anyone does anything. I did notice a pattern. (they came, they asked, there was no answer, they stopped posting. I took a major leap to a conclusion with some potential.)

To me, that means there might be a need for a topic thread to add to the library, which I plan to start, as I like it here and it would be good to get some of those answers in one place.

Those statements are not assuming, judgemental and fairly 'high faluting' as you put it?

Not to me! And I think I went into some detail above as to why not. (With the possible exception of 'assuming' of course. But then you were talking to at and around me, without asking, assuming I was judgemental about my d/s (lol) and I felt insulted by that. If any of the newbies I was referring to felt insulted in the roundabout way you managed to reach, and had told me so... aw, fergit it. That's really out there.

Maybe if as you say it is a question only asked by newbies it is because it is a common question for most of us when starting to develop an interest in this lifestyle, and for many takes time to tap into those intangible aspects which are not so easy to recognise and see.

I'm not looking for intangibles. I'm looking for tangibles.. Several others mentioned looking for the same. I'll bring back one of the threads.

If you don't read many and/or a variety of the threads,

Oh but I Have! Let's find someone who doesn't think they've seen me post much or on a wide variety of threads.

you are judging me on a very small fraction of what I have written,

dealt with above.

and applying your own perspective to it, how they would be meant if spoken by you perhaps, not me....

Don't we all? Or are you going to tell me that you apply other people's perspectives to wht you read? Pretty neat trick.

and no, I don't think as you that what I do is darn good...that is very alien to me in all aspects of my life.

Had a feeling you were going to jump on that one, but said it anyway. So you think what you do is crappy, huh? Poor you. Or no. You think what you do is Completely Neutral at all times. Your lifestyle, your very life perhaps, are only neutral things, which you could take or leave. My...!

What I do and enjoy

Ok, so you ENJOY it, you just don't think it's good. hmmm.

Btw, I'm capable of thinking that something I do or enjoy is 'good' while simultaneously, thinking that what someone else does or enjoys is good, too. Apples? Darn good. Oranges? Darn good, too.

is simply what I find suits me at this space in time and is a part of my personal journey, not yours, not Anelize's, not Shadowsdream's, not anyone else's but mine, and to a large part is a mixture of who I am instinctively, the result of learning from my peers (especially those at Lit), and the guidance of my Master. Who I am today is not who I was last year, nor will be next year, it evolves and changes as I move forward.
Catalina

Uh, yeah. That's nice, dear. Me, too.

PS. I don't use this one very often, in fact, can only remember a time or two, because it's just not how I think of or treat people but...

Pps. I think you have a good heart, and mean well. Even if you seem to me to have a tendency toward condescension and misreading people. I probably have the same, which is why I enjoy it so in you.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

edited to reduce 'lots of verbosity.' Did I cut it down far enough, ADR?

 

[A Desert Rose]

Nope. Just the simple answer.

Might be a simple answer but it's the most on target.

D/s is whatever you and your partner make it, whatever you two decide it is. At it's best it's negotiable and ever-changing.

Everyone will likely say exactly what Xelebes said, except they will just elaborate it with lots of verbosity.


Edited to say: "lots of verbosity" is kinda redundant... but I will leave it for the chuckles.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

No of course it doesn't.

Unless you're with me, then believe me, it does.

LOL.

Agreed.