Do you write only idealized main characters?

[Pure]

Do You Write Only Idealized Main Characters?

I want to ask the general question. I posted the more specific question about Jesus-like doms, below, at bdsm forum and got few answers, the good examples being outside Literotica.

As one poster mentioned, the question, "In a Literotica story, is the 'dom' ever imperfect in any way?" (i.e., Is he always a blend of Jesus and St. Francisco?) is related to the requirements of porn: After all, there's usually an everready, beautiful nympho (or budding one); and a longlasting, fluidly gifted handsome male (unless it's a geek fantasy). So the idealization is there routinely as part of the job to get the reader off.

In a run-of-the-mill romance, too, the woman's 'true love' is likely, tall dark attractive caring; unflawed (at least from the time of meeting with the heroine).

Are there stories (fictions, not thinly veiled autobios) you've written for literotica that have IMperfect lead characters, be it a dom, domme, 'loving wife' 'object of romance'?

Give details, url's

Leave aside the obvious 'hooks' and ham-fisted ways to get Joe(Jane) Average to identify: "I'm a horny geek and saw into my neighbor's wife's window", "I've got a small dick and a beautiful wife and I've had this fantasy" and "I'm just 18, B cup, and not bad looking, and was--until my handsome brother came how from college--a virgin."

Non trivial imperfections, as per below, include those of character, like a drug or drinking problem, tendency to break promises, 'cheating' (i.e., NOT approved by the partner, and NOT a turn on for the partner; NOT as a premise for a scene to turn on the reader).

More minor ones include bad temper, inflated opinion of self, undue discouragement from minor setbacks; unreasonable suspicions or jealousy. Also, perhaps something like bad grammar.

Just wondering.

J.

Added PS: I'm aware of the exemplary efforts and fine characters in Colleen T's works, and in Rumple's and a *very few* others (see the mention in WH's posting, below.) Are these 'just the (rare) exceptions which prove the rule'?

I'm also aware in the larger sphere, of romances, for instance with imperfect characters, some of which are classics. _Jane Eyre_ is an example which stands in contrast to _Gone with The Wind_ and its 'stock' lead characters.



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cross posted from bdsm forum

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=236809

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An imperfect dom?

Is there one? In virtually every Lit. story I've read, the dom is a cross between Jesus Christ and our St. Francisco. (Maybe this applies to dommes also?) I can't remember seeing, in a Lit story,# ** a dom who has problems, imperfections, or failings: I'd like to see some examples of failings in character-- a dom, who has a drinking or drug problem; who sometimes breaks a promise; or is unfaithful. (Leave aside, for the moment, the novice's problems, and those of the complete impostor.)

Or, examples related to in his calling: is sometimes less than competent; makes a serious mistake in inflicting pain. Fumbles. Occasionally impotent. (leave aside for the moment, cruel.)

Are there examples, in lit. fiction, of doms with minor--but non-trivial--failings, or neuroses: liable to lose temper; forgetful; overly depressed about seemingly minor setbacks; unreasonably jealous or suspicious; obviously too high an opinion of self. Even, uses bad grammar; doesn't know some important fact.

Please give some help finding such stories; describe the dom and his issues. In your experience, which items listed are simply never seen (in a story). Give the url of your examples. Maybe my sample just has a weird bias.

I wonder how far this idealization applies to fictional dommes as well?

J.


**possibly excepting one by KM, two by roscoe.

 

[shereads]

I've read, but never enjoyed, a few D/s stories with Christ-like Doms. Not only unbelievable, but unsatisfying. The D/s stories I enjoy are about flawed people whose flaws open them to an experience that others wouldn't be likely to enjoy.

Can't imagine Christ getting His kicks tying Mary Magdalene to a chair and threatening her with his leather flogger, but maybe that chapter was lost in translation. D/s heros are antiheros. The best kind.

 

[Weird Harold]

Do You Write Only Idealized Main Characters?

I think your question has answered one I've pondered for a couple of years now -- What made my story good enough to be picked for the Literotica book?

I think the answer just might be that Two Bags For The Bride is about people with flaws. It started out as a combination of an excuse to tell ugly jokes and a morality tale about ugly people need love too, but it turned into a tongue-in-cheek romance with characters who all have quirks and kinks that make them less than perfect.

The imperfections were mostly included to provide humorous situations, but now that I think about it in light of your question, I can see that it's the imperfect characters more than the slapstick results of their imperfections that people like about the story.

 

[thenry]

I wrote a story awhile ago I actually just posted in response to another thread. It was more about looking for something new and takes place at a halfway house / mental institution. The narrator is anorexic and could be described as sub. The story contains no explicit sexual contact, so I dropped it into non-erotic. I think it is the flaws that make the character's viewpoint interesting, but also limit what can be done within the story.

Flesh

"Because I wasn't suicidal, I think, they let me keep my hair grown out long. It's amazing what you can fit into a bun, and how much of a difference a few pounds can make when you only weigh eighty-five."

 

[Boxlicker101]

I write about David, a bi-sexual who has been the main character in some gay male stories I have written. He is fat and bald and wears dentures. The dentures are actually a plus, as far as sex goes because he removes them. He is also in his sixties, which would make him over the hill as far as gay men looking for casual sex partners are concerned.

In the stories where I write in the first person, George Boxlicker, my protag. is in his forties, bald and dependent on Viagra. This are not such drawbacks as they might seem to be because the women like him for his technique and attitude. None of the women in the stories are seen as less than attractive but that is partly because they are seen in the eyes of George, who sees more than just the physical appearance and is something of a Pollyanna. Some of the women are described as really gorgeous or drop-dead sexy but they are the exceptions.

I have never written about DOM/sub because it doesn't interest me. I don't read them either.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Can't imagine Christ getting His kicks tying Mary Magdalene to a chair and threatening her with his leather flogger, but maybe that chapter was lost in translation.

*licks lips*

 

[Syndra Lynn]

No!

I don't like porn in photos or writing about the PERFECT anyone. BORING!!

So I don't write that way either. A character may have one attribute considered perfect by another character (perfect nipples or ass, etc.) But everything perfect?

No way.

Syn

 

[Pure]

Re: No!

Can you give some urls or quote a para where you describe a clearly imperfect character?

Are any of your characters imperfect in other ways thatn physical--say bad temper? unreliable? overanxious?

J.

I don't like porn in photos or writing about the PERFECT anyone. BORING!!

So I don't write that way either. A character may have one attribute considered perfect by another character (perfect nipples or ass, etc.) But everything perfect?

No way.

Syn

 

[Syndra Lynn]

Re: Re: No!

Can you give some urls or quote a para where you describe a clearly imperfect character?

Are any of your characters imperfect in other ways thatn physical--say bad temper? unreliable? overanxious?

J.

I find characters who are perfect in any way boring. They have no depth and no resemblence to real life. Ever met a perfect person? I haven't. And those who think they are reveal their imperfections constantly.

Here is a short description of a character named Susan in the novel I am working on. It is not posted here at Lit, but was the first one to come to mind when I read your question.

Lucy pulled Susan’s nightshirt over her head revealing her heavy breasts and taut nipples. Rick’s erection pulled tight, causing some pain, as Lucy suckled at Susan’s breast and fingered her pussy gently. Lucy soon had her Mistress moaning in anticipation. Rick’s cock twitched. His body was fraught with heated desire. He thought he would go insane if he couldn’t release his need soon. Susan pressed down on her shoulders guiding her to the soft mound of flesh that craved attention. Lucy slid off the end of the bed, pushed Susan’s knees open and pulled her ass to the edge. Her expert tongue went to work pleasing the Mistress as Rick got his first good look at Susan’s naked body.
She had long legs, a firm round ass, wide hips and large breasts. Her rounded womanly form was a sharp contrast to Lucy’s petite figure. Just above her pubic hair she wore a turned up smile of a scar that indicated some type of abdominal surgery. Her belly was soft just above the scar, but her abdomen was hard and her waist narrow. She was rocking her hips into Lucy’s face and moaning her approval.

Rick is my protagonist and is far from perfect. he has been arrested for embezzlment and sold into slavery.

Thanks for the thought provoking question!

Syn

 

[Boxlicker101]

Re: Re: No!

Can you give some urls or quote a para where you describe a clearly imperfect character?

Are any of your characters imperfect in other ways thatn physical--say bad temper? unreliable? overanxious?

J.

This is from my story: David and His Dildo:

David was not without resources. The main one was the website where he had his profile. He went there frequently but almost never had email from anybody interesting. Gay men are far more age conscious than anybody else, and most young gay men considered forty years old to be over the hill. At sixty years old, especially being overweight, David was considered to be over the hill and off the planet. Other sixty year old men didn't seem to think so, and they did contact David sometimes, but they were all bottoms also and they were looking for the same thing David was.

 

[Pure]

Yes, Box, that fits. Thanks. {{revised after a look at the story; 8:20 pm est}}

I think there are certain categories of exceptions to the rule of perfection at literotica. Perfection has two parts at least, physical and moral/mental.

The most common exceptions are physical:

1)In incest stories, a brother or sister is sometimes described as 'average' in looks.

2)In some writing for middled aged readers, some looks imperfections coming from age are permitted.

3)I think perhaps your example, besides partly belonging in 2), is a category of "Joe Average" story, where he'll get into something unusual. In some stories it would possibly be a younger and certainly a very hot partner.

{{Added}} Having looked at the story, you resolutely and graphically portrayed the secret masturbation life of a middle aged married man with bisexual leanings. Apparently it's a story to solace such a reader. Character is not really a consideration.

Come to think of it, paralleling 3) many porn movies show the director, basically a slob, getting serviced by lotsa hot chicks. I think the intent is to convince the average Joe of the possibilities--let him identify-- and get him off. Indeed, often it's said, "Just get a camera, learn enough to look like you know what you're doing, and you can start 'shooting' hot babes, who'll agree to fuck you."

In the mental/moral character side of the question, box, I don't think you've shown any example of imperfection, though Dave sounds possibly a bit boring. He doesn't have an alcohol problem, or a neurotic obsession with his bowel movements. He has a sex secret, as many married persons do.

I suppose the reason this mental moral side comes to my mind is that a fictional dom, besides having certain physical attractiveness, usually is portrayed with various 'character' qualities, as part of being a dom, it's believed; strength, wisdom, etc.

J.

 

[KarenAM]

A lot of this is going to depend on what you mean by "idealized", since everyone's ideal is different. And it's important to remember that there are degrees of being less than ideal. In "Summer Thunder", I wanted the protagonist to be an average girl, newly adult and still getting used to it. This leads her to rebel against her father, which might be considered a less than ideal trait. Physically, she describes herself:

I'm pretty; maybe not June Gorgeous, maybe not Miss America, but enough.

I don't think about ideals when I create characters; I try to think about their humanity, which is a mix of the ideal and the ways in which they fall short. This is much easier to do with novel-length fiction than a short story.

Summer Thunder

In "Need & Redemption", the protagonist has an internal struggle between her desire to be less sexual and her enhanced libido. This leads her to make what she herself feels is in some ways an immoral choice. I'm not sure if this qualifies her as an unidealized character, but it does make her more interesting.

Need & Redemption

 

[dr_mabeuse]

You might as well ask for porno videos featuring women with fat ankles and men with hair on their backs. Porn is sexual propaganda, and because it's propaganda, everything is idealized. Most of us usually want our characters to be as sexy and attractive as possible, so if we give them faults, they're idealized faults. I figure if poeple want character studies they won't be looking for them on Literotica.

I also don't write much about flawed sexual acts: premature ejaculation, vaginismus, impotence, STD's, or genital warts. They may be real, but they're just not sexy.I try to put enough color into my characters to give them some interest, but I generally stay away from harping on their faults and deficiencies. It's usually just anti-erotic.

---dr.M.

 

[shereads]

The dentures are actually a plus, as far as sex goes because he removes them.

So he won't have to share a stranger's toothbrush if he's staying overnight. Nice angle!

 

[Boxlicker101]

So he won't have to share a stranger's toothbrush if he's staying overnight. Nice angle!

Of course not. Ask any man the difference between getting head from persons with all their teeth and persons without teeth. He will never stay overnight because he has to get home to his wife.

 

[Pure]

dr mab. said,

You might as well ask for porno videos featuring women with fat ankles and men with hair on their backs. Porn is sexual propaganda, and because it's propaganda, everything is idealized. Most of us usually want our characters to be as sexy and attractive as possible, so if we give them faults, they're idealized faults. I figure if poeple want character studies they won't be looking for them on Literotica.

I also don't write much about flawed sexual acts: premature ejaculation, vaginismus, impotence, STD's, or genital warts. They may be real, but they're just not sexy.I try to put enough color into my characters to give them some interest, but I generally stay away from harping on their faults and deficiencies. It's usually just anti-erotic.

---dr.M.

Jeez dr., that's pretty damning. Nicely stated. And it seems to apply well to contemporary porn including that with a little 'color' (the high class stuff). Applies well to the popular 'romance' genre as well.

Some people, of course, claim there's this thing 'erotica' or even (almost) literature around here, which would have the sexual detail and bang, but somehow involve 'plausible people' (not just cardboard figures) and believable emotions besides avid lust.

Returning, however, to your basic point, I have two demurrers:

*Sexual,* body idealization, admittedly arousing, often, is compatible with a number of moral and other shortcomings. For instance, a 'hot' male could be rather unscrupulous. Outside a very few nonconsent stories, is he to be found?

Some of the classic porn, like Sade, does not fit your characterization at all. I think it's European to see how ugliness can go with sexiness.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Originally posted by Pure
Do You Write Only Idealized Main Characters?

I certainly wouldn't call Betty perfect. Read her description and consider. The story is "Betty's Busy Fingers" and this is her idea of a hot date.

Betty, or “Elizabeth” as she was now thinking of herself, had a few chores to attend to, laundry to sort, dishes to wash, a letter to write. As she went about these things, she sipped occasionally on more of the red wine, not getting drunk, but getting what she thought of as “sort of mellow”. The red wine helped her not think too much about the fact that she was going to be spending Friday night reading a dirty story and masturbating. Betty was chubby with an unattractive face, so men didn’t pay much attention to her, and she was much too shy to make the first step, so George Boxlicker and her dildos were her date that evening. “Someday,” she thought, “I’ll find my own George Boxlicker, and I hope he will like my pussy as much as the original likes his lady

 

[Liar]

My main characters are often far from idealised. Ok they have good intentions and are generally agreeable people. But they are also neurotic, insecure and with a busload of issues. Physically, you almost never know my main characters. I write them in first person, and (unless they vent their insecutity about their own looks to the reader) the only persons you "see" are the people he/she interacts with. And those are then seen through his/her eyes and values.

Ten of course, I don't write all that much erotica. Maybe we need simpler characters and more perfect bodies in this genre?

#L

 

[dr_mabeuse]

*Sexual,* body idealization, admittedly arousing, often, is compatible with a number of moral and other shortcomings. For instance, a 'hot' male could be rather unscrupulous. Outside a very few nonconsent stories, is he to be found?

Some of the classic porn, like Sade, does not fit your characterization at all. I think it's European to see how ugliness can go with sexiness.

I didn't mean to come down on this like a forty pound shithammer, and your point is well-taken. Way too many characters in porn are idealized perfection--especially the women.

That bit about porn being propaganda wasn't my idea. It was said a long time ago by someone else as a way of explaining why the world of literature doesn't take porn seriously, but it's true. Pornography is primarily wish-fulfillment, and so even the "flaws" or quirks we see in our characters here are idealized. A lack of scruples is very erotic for a lot of people, and so we see a lot of arrogant, cocky, men. Because it's wish fulfillment, you'll probably see a lot of less-than-perfect women too, but they're invariably redeemed by sex, a favorite theme in porn and one that's almost embarrassingly idealistic.

The more I write, the more interested I get in character and the less interested I seem to get in sex for the sake of sex. Or rather, I'm interested in sex as a function of character. My last story involved two shallow, post-modern women who take part in a three-way simply for the hell of it. The sex is still idealized, but the rest of the story is pretty realistic, I think. There's no sexual redemption in the story, and the ending is pretty ambiguous, and I was surpsied at the amount of negative feedback I received on it, especially from people whose literary acumen I respect. It's almost like, "The truth? You can't handle the truth!" In porn, at least, we don't want the truth.

I think that we talk a good literary game here, but when the chips are down we prefer our women to be 18 with DDD tits and our men to have twelve inch cocks and look like Scottish move-stars. Putting in little quirks that give the appearance of humanity is smart technique, but it's not the same as giving them real character though.

---dr.M.

 

[shereads]

As a fan of Dr. M's dirty stories, I think he doesn't give himself credit for one of the best things about his writing: he communicates a lot about his characters with a few essential clues and without the need for paragraphs of back-story. There are no perfect heros or perfect assholes. There are always people, with strengths and weaknesses and a degree of vulnerability. The same sex scenes, played out between Barbie and Ken, would be a hot read but they wouldn't be Dr. M.

I can't imagine that writing a good porn story is any easier than writing a short story on any other theme. There are writers who take the reader from set-up to conclusion by the easiest route, with a couple of emotional or sexual landmarks along the way. And there are others who respect their readers enough to engage our hearts and minds. I've never seen that done with idealized, one-dimensional characters, in porn or anywhere in literature. Even Jesus Christ has his moments of doubt.

 

[Pure]

For the record, Sher, I likewise think dr m was too hard on himself (as pornster) though just about right for most others**.

Sher: I can't imagine that writing a good porn story is any easier than writing a short story on any other theme.

I think it's infinitely easier to write passable porn (gets 4s or 5s at literotica) than a 'real' short story that anyone would look twice at, even among, say, amateur short story writers' sites and publications.

Lack of character, utterly formulaic and predictable plot are almost universal in common porn, esp. amateur.

I think, though, what you call 'a good porn story' is what I'd call 'erotica', i.e. it has human beings (not cardboard figures, usually idealized in body) with human feelings (not just stereotyped 'do me' lust); and human amounts of body fluids.

I find lots of good erotica examples at www.cleansheets.com by the way. Since Literotica only screens for grammar and punctuation, you've got a one in a thousand situation, here.

I'd echo dr. m's statement; I find increasing interest in character; sex act minutiae get boring in the telling, not just the reading, after the first thousand times.

----


**I exclude the redoubtable Colleen T, of course.

 

[thenry]

But, in a different vein, does an imperfect character work better within the framework of BDSM? Referencing my previous post, an imperfect sub seemingly more plausible than an imperfect character in a "straight" sexual story.

 

[SlickTony]

I plead guilty to having some idealized characters, but I don't make them beautiful into the bargain--that would be overkill.

 

[Belegon]

Hmmm...

While I certainly don't feel that I write main characters who are highly physically or mentally flawed, I also don't feel that I write them as idealized. To me, that would indicate "top 10%" attitudes and descriptions at the least. In contrast, the male lead in my first story describes himself as:

[COLOR=dark-blue]"Therefore I found myself on the bus to the mall, wearing brown polyester pants and a white t shirt, sweating and basically looking at my absolute most dweebish, which is quite an accomplishment when you are a 5’11” 160 pound glasses-wearing teenager with long stringy red hair. Because of this I had no illusions that she would sit next to me."[/COLOR]

He is on the bus because his car is broken down and he does not have enough money to fix it.

Hardly a "teen dream", but certainly a place many of us might have been. Which is actually exactly the point.

 

[Pure]

Slick Tony--I don't think 'guilt' is the issue. It has to do with 'genre' writing, and degree of creativity (and the degree desired by the audience). Netzach remarked on the Dickens characters; some do fall short in the individuality department; not unlike the saintly women in Dostoevsky (Sonya in _Crime and Punishment_).

thenry said: //But, in a different vein, does an imperfect character work better within the framework of BDSM? Referencing my previous post, an imperfect sub seemingly more plausible than an imperfect character in a "straight" sexual story.//

interesting area. I'd agree, that *aside from really romantic DS stuff, the sub is allowed a couple kinds of failings for the first part of the story: 1) learner's mistakes; and 2)selfish mistakes.

sub mistakes are there because readers like to read about the delicious punishments.

at the same time, in my view, subs in lit fiction are pretty idealized: I've never in a story seen subs as fragile and troubled as sometimes turn up in the bdsm forums looking for attention and help.

I'm not sure of your reasoning as to why an imperfect sub is more plausible than an imperfect lover in a 1-1 hot romance. Is it because you think the sub's faults or weaknesses are behind their submission?