Do you believe in Santa?

[Amy Sweet]

The battle over the man in the red suit

Since my oldest child was a wee baby, I've "hung out" with a group of mothers at an online message board. We post messages back and forth about the banalities of motherhood, milestones and dilemmas.

We also enjoy hearty debates on issues ranging from politics to parenting styles. And about this time every single year, a topic comes up that can turn the conversation downright nasty. This topic is so controversial that the debate can go on for days, even weeks; so divisive that it leaves friendships strained and feelings wounded.

The topic is Santa Claus.

Do your kids believe? Do you believe? Do you encourage your kids to believe? Do you encourage your non-believing kids to speak out about their (non) belief, or do you demand that they remain mum in order to protect the feelings of the believers?

Apparently, wherever you stand on this issue, you risk offending somebody else. If you promote your kids' belief in jolly Old St. Nick, some will accuse you of perpetuating a lie to your children. When your kids find out the truth, say these Santa-nay-sayers, they'll feel deeply wounded and disappointed, perhaps going through the rest of their lives experiencing surges of rage and deep depression every time they see a fat man in a red coat.

There are also those who try to sway parents who don't encourage a belief in Kris Kringle -- or those who outright tell their kids not to believe. If you fall into this camp, believe me, there are people out there who think you're the scroogiest Scrooge that ever lived, and you probably torture puppies too.

My kids believe in Santa. We write letters to Santa and give gifts from Santa, and I admit, in moments of weakness, to using "Santa's watching!" as a threat for bad behavior. Of course, when it comes down to the crises of faith I try to remain reasonable, asking questions like "What do you think?" when faced with the inevitable "Mom, is Santa Claus for real?" query. But I'm glad they believe.

I get the feeling my 7-year-old son is starting to have doubts, but isn't quite ready to give up the magic. When I was a kid, I figured out the Santa thing at age 8, thanks to pre-Christmas snooping in my mom's closet. And even after I knew, I pretended to believe for three more years, much to the amusement of the adults in my life. Even though I'd caught on, I wanted grown-ups to treat me as though I still believed -- for their own sakes. They all seemed to get so much fun out of the Santa thing -- who was I to wreck it for them?

And that's what this debate comes down to for me. See, I want to believe in Santa. Not the spirit of Santa. No, I want to believe that every Christmas Eve, a portly fellow with a white beard and rosy cheeks slides his wide body down chimneys the world over. I want to listen for bells and footsteps on the rooftop and really hear them. This whole reasonable grown-up thing -- good for wiping noses and buying groceries -- suits me most of the time. But not at Christmas. At Christmas, I want magic.

When I had kids, I figured, it was my second chance. If my kids believed in Santa, I could also believe in him in a socially acceptable way. On my first Christmas Eve as a parent, I briefly entertained the wild notion of going to bed without putting anything under the tree just to see if Santa would show up. Though my husband intervened, I still wonder sometimes what might have happened if he hadn't.

So if your non-believing children accidentally spill the beans to my kids, don't worry. For them, Christmas -- steeped in a world of joy and mystery-- is magical no matter what.

But for me? Well, let's just say that I might take it kind of hard. But I know, I know. It has to happen sooner or later.

Oh, well. There's always the Easter Bunny, right?








http://www.lansingnoise.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041215/NOISE18/412150304/1104/noise

 

[R. Richard]

"Do your kids believe? Do you believe? Do you encourage your kids to believe? Do you encourage your non-believing kids to speak out about their (non) belief, or do you demand that they remain mum in order to protect the feelings of the believers?"

"Apparently, wherever you stand on this issue, you risk offending somebody else. If you promote your kids' belief in jolly Old St. Nick, some will accuse you of perpetuating a lie to your children. When your kids find out the truth, say these Santa-nay-sayers, they'll feel deeply wounded and disappointed, perhaps going through the rest of their lives experiencing surges of rage and deep depression every time they see a fat man in a red coat."

Ther is a solution to your problem. It was an editorial, published in the New York Sun (now defunct). It can be found in the 'Net wioth a little searching. It is titled "Yes Virginia, There Is A Santa Clause." The editorial won a Pulitzer prize and is the most famous editorial ever published in a US newspaper.

The editorial defines Santa Claus in terms of abstract concepts. A young child will not understand the obfuscation and will continue to believe in Santa. The older children may see the ruse, but they will have a hard time convincing the younger ones.

 

[carsonshepherd]

"Do your kids believe? Do you believe? Do you encourage your kids to believe? Do you encourage your non-believing kids to speak out about their (non) belief, or do you demand that they remain mum in order to protect the feelings of the believers?"

"Apparently, wherever you stand on this issue, you risk offending somebody else. If you promote your kids' belief in jolly Old St. Nick, some will accuse you of perpetuating a lie to your children. When your kids find out the truth, say these Santa-nay-sayers, they'll feel deeply wounded and disappointed, perhaps going through the rest of their lives experiencing surges of rage and deep depression every time they see a fat man in a red coat."

Ther is a solution to your problem. It was an editorial, published in the New York Sun (now defunct). It can be found in the 'Net wioth a little searching. It is titled "Yes Virginia, There Is A Santa Clause." The editorial won a Pulitzer prize and is the most famous editorial ever published in a US newspaper.

The editorial defines Santa Claus in terms of abstract concepts. A young child will not understand the obfuscation and will continue to believe in Santa. The older children may see the ruse, but they will have a hard time convincing the younger ones.

Um... did you know that the original letter from the little girl, to wihch the editorial was an answer to, was found to be fake?

 

[fifty5]

And that's what this debate comes down to for me. See, I want to believe in Santa. Not the spirit of Santa. No, I want to believe that every Christmas Eve, a portly fellow with a white beard and rosy cheeks slides his wide body down chimneys the world over. I want to listen for bells and footsteps on the rooftop and really hear them. This whole reasonable grown-up thing -- good for wiping noses and buying groceries -- suits me most of the time. But not at Christmas. At Christmas, I want magic.

Hi Sweets,

That (and the rest) brought tears to my eyes. That magic is, well the only word is "magical."

Emotion has a place.

Faith has a place.

And, back down to earth, reality has a place.

The real evil is misusing any of those to cause suffering.

Thanks for re-focusing me on what really matters.

 

[shereads]

As a gift-crazed child, I thought Santa was a fabulous idea. As an adult, I think the Santa myth has done irreparable damage to Christmas. I'm not religious but I'm moved by the Christmas story and the way it embraces humble shepherds and three kings, equally, promising at least a season of peace. It's a sad celebration, because it celebrates the birth of a sacrifice, but there's a sweetness to it that few things can equal.

What must it have been like to celebrate Christmas before Santa came into the picture? Children probably didn't lie awake all night and spend months anticipating the Big Day, but neither did they have to experience the first stirrings of doubt. Remember when you were old enough to wonder why Santa Claus gave bicycles to kids like you and nothing at all to the starving kids you saw in the newspaper and on the TV news? That's when Christmas started feeling like what it's become: the world's most successful marketing gimmick. A play put on for the entertainment of privileged children.

I remember that time with a sense of loss. I had been offered magic and believed it, until I couldn't deny anymore that I hadn't earned Santa's goodwill by being good, any more than children living in poverty had earned his disdain by being bad. I still love the lights and the red suit and the beard, the whole fairytale, and if I had children I'd want that for them. But I'm not sure I'd be doing them a favor.

Santa is magical and fun, but it's an illusion that only works as long as we're able to remain in denial. Without Santa, the Christmas story has more to do with alleviating suffering than with pretending it doesn't exist. Santa teaches children that there's something wrong with not getting what you wish for. The other Christmas message, the one about self-sacrifice and the value of humility, doesn't stand a chance against that kind of competiton.

Don't get me wrong; I love presents. When I get one I like, I loves me some Santa! That doesn't change the fact that Santa is a ho.

 

[fifty5]

Santa is magical and fun, but it's an illusion that only works as long as we're able to remain in denial. ... Santa is a ho.

Shit shereads,

Just when I thought I'd made up my mind, you've pointed out that some of the magic is black!

Maybe only Yule - the Winter solstice - meaning that the year is about to open up again towards Spring and Summer is a true hope.

We've got a 'Windoze desktop wallpaper' (google for WorldClock) that shows a map of the world that updates the night/day aspect each minute.

Tonight, within 4 days of the real solstice, the whole arctic is dark and all of Antarctica is lit. The day/night boundary is a sine-curve. It's even more graphic than the rain that's beating on the windowpane.

Midwinter revelry is therapeutic!

I've got Christmas, a visitation of AHers on Jan 4 AND a fortnight in the Canaries (so expect me to 'go dark' from the 27th Jan) to look forward to.


Counting my blessings...

 

[shereads]

Honey, I'm of two minds about Santa Claus myself. If I could make it better, I'd disassociate the Santa story from the Christmas one, because they're such different messages.

The gift-giving was inspired by the nativity story, but they were gifts given in a different spirit than the "gotta have it" mode that kids go into when the barrage hits each November. I haven't heard a version where Baby Jesus made a list of stuff he wanted the magi to bring him, unless he'd been a bad boy.

There's no harm in giving children a season where wishes come true, although it would be nice if we could shelter the ones whose families can't or won't give them gifts. It's just a shame that the day is given over to to a message so different from the original one. And it can't be good to teach children that the only reason you might not get what you asked for is that you were undeserving. What else does Santa teach them, if not that?

 

[Seattle Zack]

Money = Love

That's what this consumer society teaches us, from the day we're born. Relentlessly bombarded with advertisements, targeted specifically to our demographic, as soon as we're squirted from the womb.

You don't need to raise your kids. Buy them things instead.

No one parents their kids anymore. No time. Instead, they buy them things. Both parents working, the kids are shuttled from school to day care to nannies while the parents struggle to maintain their opulent lifestyle. "You can have it all." A career, kids, a half-million dollar mansion, three cars. Just so you buy more stuff. Buy buy buy.

Many companies do 60-80% of their yearly business at christmastime.

You could scale back, of course, actually raise your kids ... of course, that would mean driving a Taurus instead of the BMW. That would mean a $200,000 house instead of the $3850 monthly mortgage payments that you can barely afford.

You know what the kid wants? He wants to play catch with his dad.

No time for that, really, but instead buy the complete set of Power Rangers (you get double Visa reward points at Toys R Us, after all, and then there's those frequent flyer miles) and send him off to soccer practice. Sorry I couldn't make the game tonight son, had to work late.

Santa = Satan

Buy buy buy

Money = Love

 

[dr_mabeuse]

It seems to me that parents are a lot more obsessed with the existence of Santa Claus than kids are. The existence or non-existence of Santa Claus seems to generate more anxiety than the existence of God.

How come the Easter Bunny doesn't generate this kind of ontological angst?

---dr.M.

 

[carsonshepherd]

It seems to me that parents are a lot more obsessed with the existence of Santa Claus than kids are. The existence or non-existence of Santa Claus seems to generate more anxiety than the existence of God.

How come the Easter Bunny doesn't generate this kind of ontological angst?

---dr.M.

You're so right. Most of the kids I know who ever really believed in Santa (not me) weren't that traumatized when they finally figured it out. Most of them do, on their own. They accepted it and moved on. It was the parents who bemoaned it and worried about them being scarred for life.

And I always liked Easter better than Xmas because my birthday is often on it and I didn't have to compete with my brother over who got the best gifts.

 

[SensualCealy]

Well my kid officially know, not that it makes me happy, but they know. My daughter knew last year but this year she really knew for sure.

It started a couple years ago, my oldest never asked, but kept saying 'Are you sure there is a Santa Claus?' I always came back with, ' If you don't believe you dont get anything from him!' I know that is pretty much black mail but hey what ever works
I always used the saying, there must be, because I cant afford what he gives out and you know that!' lol

Now, they both have figured it out, thanks to a friend and the tooth fairy, which then in turn became the reason for asking about santa.

I think kids really believe and once they hit school is the hard time to keep them believing. I guess if you keep the magic of Christmas alive they will truly believe in their hearts (thats where the black mail comes in handy! lol).

This year is a ho hum year, knowing they know etc. My daughter even asked where the gifts where, I told her and said, if you want to look go ahead , its your Christmas you will be wrecking and it will save me from going and getting a Christmas tree and wrapping the gifts!

Keep them believing as long as you can, Christmas is for kids so long as they stay kids!
C

 

[eric shawn listo]

Not to begrudge the philisophical discussion but my 22 month old is pointing at the tv and saying "santee clos" and that's enough for me.

 

[SensualCealy]

I think if you keep the real meaning of Christmas and why we celebrate it ,( if you celebrate both), alive then there is no harm in them believing in Santa.
C

Specially a 22 month old!

 

[eric shawn listo]

I think if you keep the real meaning of Christmas and why we celebrate it ,( if you celebrate both), alive then there is no harm in them believing in Santa.
C

Specially a 22 month old!

Yeah, but I gotta convince my 74 year old mother there's no santa..that'll be tough.

 

[Guest]

YES!

I believe in Father Christmas, I do, I DO, I DO-OO!!!

 

[ABSTRUSE]

I beleive we don't allow our children enough time to be children, they have to be little adults.
They have too many years to be an adult, they need to know that it's okay to have magic and fairy tales. They need to be allowed to use their imaginations.

I was thrilled to see my 10yr old sit on Santa's lap. I love tracking santa on the Norad site on Christmas eve so we can see where he is. I love that we can be silly together.

My inner child is more of an outie and I could give a shit less if I get looked at jumping in puddles, skipping down the street or just plain being silly with them. We sing out loud in the car, watch cartoons together and color.

So if Santa keeps the kid alive in all of us, bring it on!!!

 

[NoJo]

It seems to me that parents are a lot more obsessed with the existence of Santa Claus than kids are. The existence or non-existence of Santa Claus seems to generate more anxiety than the existence of God.

How come the Easter Bunny doesn't generate this kind of ontological angst?

---dr.M.

It's because everyone now accepts Heidegger's conclusive argument's against its existence:

Interpretation (Auslegung) which depends on such existential understanding (Verstehen) is not the general logical method found in classical philology, but refers to a conscious recognition of one's own world. The Easter Bunny's methodological hermeneutic circle is consequently supplanted by the more fundamental ontological hermeneutic circle, which leads from existential understanding situated in a world to a self-conscious interpretive stance.

 

[shereads]

It's because everyone now accepts Heidegger's conclusive argument's against its existence:

Interpretation (Auslegung) which depends on such existential understanding (Verstehen) is not the general logical method found in classical philology, but refers to a conscious recognition of one's own world. The Easter Bunny's methodological hermeneutic circle is consequently supplanted by the more fundamental ontological hermeneutic circle, which leads from existential understanding situated in a world to a self-conscious interpretive stance.

Bunny don't matter 'cause Bunny don't bring Barbie.

 

[Amy Sweet]

Re: Re: Do you believe in Santa?

Hi Sweets,

That (and the rest) brought tears to my eyes. That magic is, well the only word is "magical."

Emotion has a place.

Faith has a place.

And, back down to earth, reality has a place.

The real evil is misusing any of those to cause suffering.

Thanks for re-focusing me on what really matters.

Funny you should quote that paragraph- that's exactly how I feel about Chrismas. In fact, before I even read this I posted over in the What do you want for Christmas? thread. I said, "magic, nothing more and nothing less." Then I found this article

I'm glad that it had a positive impact on you. Whatever else happens in this thread- at least I will know that it was worth it in some way to somebody.

Merry Christmas fifty5.

Sweet.

 

[gauchecritic]

Kids can't not believe in Santa, they're not equipped to question these sorts of 'truth'.

If you're going to celebrate Christmas by giving and receiving gifts and decide to go with the Santa story (which they'll have seen and heard many times as soon as they become sociable) then you'll have a very difficult job of telling them he doesn't exist.

Do you think that the answer to "Where did I come from?" is believable? They'll take your word for it, sure, but that can't be right. Can it?

As for setting them up for traumatisation: Crap. There are a great many other life traumas that will drive them batty long before there being no Father Christmas.

Other kids cruelty. Dead pets. Dead friends. "Cruel" authority (with your approval!).

Learning what's real and suffering from it is merely a 'good' conditioning exercise for that bleakest of middle age realisations: mortality.

Let them believe. It's a good grounding for imagination, they'll lose it soon enough.

 

[Amy Sweet]

Santa and the Easter Bunny

I believe in Santa but not the Easter bunny. However- I feel rather traumatized by not believing in the Easter Bunny, because my mother *told* be there was no Easter Bunny before I was ready to know it. Oh boy it upset me. Maybe that's why she *still* insists we believe in Santa- or maybe it's something else. I believe in keeping the magic alive and letting kids figure out on there own. When they are old enough to question why the world works the way it does, and why Santa may not visit some who are no less diserving, then they can become one of Santa's helpers- there are many ways to do this- donate old coats and clothes, buying mittens for the mitten tree, donating to toys for tots, seving meals in local churches, ect. ect.

I agree that there is a negative conection in the idea that the good and deserving get what they want and those who suffer and do without also get what they diserve. However, you can also look at it as work before play (being good is hard work for children). A lot of which lessons Santa teaches are in the hands of the parents and how they handle the Santa mythology. You can teach your children to be greedy or giving with or without Santa-- and I think that Santa is mearly a focus of the values you are already teaching them. Parents create Santa for there kids, he is largely a reflection of them and there values. Face it, Santa comes but once a year (regardless of how long the holiday season seems to last). Children who think Santa is all about Gimmee Gimmee Gimmee would be no different with or without him. It's a nice place to lay blame, but take Santa out of the eqasion and you're going to end up with basicly the same kids.

It's not Santa's fault.

 

[Amy Sweet]

Learning what's real and suffering from it is merely a 'good' conditioning exercise for that bleakest of middle age realisations: mortality.

Let them believe. It's a good grounding for imagination, they'll lose it soon enough.

 

[Amy Sweet]

As a gift-crazed child, I thought Santa was a fabulous idea. As an adult, I think the Santa myth has done irreparable damage to Christmas. I'm not religious but I'm moved by the Christmas story and the way it embraces humble shepherds and three kings, equally, promising at least a season of peace. It's a sad celebration, because it celebrates the birth of a sacrifice, but there's a sweetness to it that few things can equal.

What must it have been like to celebrate Christmas before Santa came into the picture? Children probably didn't lie awake all night and spend months anticipating the Big Day, but neither did they have to experience the first stirrings of doubt. Remember when you were old enough to wonder why Santa Claus gave bicycles to kids like you and nothing at all to the starving kids you saw in the newspaper and on the TV news? That's when Christmas started feeling like what it's become: the world's most successful marketing gimmick. A play put on for the entertainment of privileged children.

I remember that time with a sense of loss. I had been offered magic and believed it, until I couldn't deny anymore that I hadn't earned Santa's goodwill by being good, any more than children living in poverty had earned his disdain by being bad. I still love the lights and the red suit and the beard, the whole fairytale, and if I had children I'd want that for them. But I'm not sure I'd be doing them a favor.

Santa is magical and fun, but it's an illusion that only works as long as we're able to remain in denial. Without Santa, the Christmas story has more to do with alleviating suffering than with pretending it doesn't exist. Santa teaches children that there's something wrong with not getting what you wish for. The other Christmas message, the one about self-sacrifice and the value of humility, doesn't stand a chance against that kind of competiton.

Don't get me wrong; I love presents. When I get one I like, I loves me some Santa! That doesn't change the fact that Santa is a ho.

When my kids were little and I was a single parent with very little, Santa and a few of Santa's helpers brought my children a very good Christmas. A much better Christmas than I could have alone. (BTW- these were not relatives)

Santa doesn't always come only to the rich. He isn't always mom and dad- or just mom as the case may be.

Santa is not a ho- but many parents pimp him out as if he were one.

 

[Guest]

I know this will embarrass him but I have to say (as objectively as possible) I think Gauche is about the wisest bloke on this forum. His post above, and the one on the 'pellet gun' thread cause me to post now. Big bonus: he's always articulate (except when drunk but even then he's interesting.)

Perdita

 

[Amy Sweet]

I beleive we don't allow our children enough time to be children, they have to be little adults.
They have too many years to be an adult, they need to know that it's okay to have magic and fairy tales. They need to be allowed to use their imaginations.

I was thrilled to see my 10yr old sit on Santa's lap. I love tracking santa on the Norad site on Christmas eve so we can see where he is. I love that we can be silly together.

My inner child is more of an outie and I could give a shit less if I get looked at jumping in puddles, skipping down the street or just plain being silly with them. We sing out loud in the car, watch cartoons together and color.

So if Santa keeps the kid alive in all of us, bring it on!!!

Ifeel just the same.

Do you go barefoot? (in summer of course)