Do we hold those countries responsible

[Chuckus]

??????????????????????????????? You'd really seriously massacre millions of people in Ireland because there are a few thousand terrorists holed up there? Forget it, don't bother answering. I'll just assume you're very angry right now.

How'd you guess? Hell yes I am pissed. I know many people who have lost friends, family and co workers.

In fact, I lost fellow Americans this week for no reason. No reason at all. So to say I am pissed off is a major major understatement.

This is MY country and WE (The US) are the Big Boys on the Block who are protecting all the Free People of Earth. No one else has the balls to stand up to these bastards. Well guess what? Game on. We will not sing it, we will BRING IT. You can take that to the bank.

 

[bluntforcemama]

Re: pabloback

Whenever anyone in the UK starts lecturing us on how to conduct foreign policy, the picture of Neville Chaimberlain holding up the signed agreement with Adolf Hitler comes to mind.

Wow, did you have to go to school to be such an asshole? Or do you come by it naturally? Are you against anyone who's not American?

 

[alexander tzara]

Now maybe we should examine people who commit other forms of terrorism...........

There is only one form of terrorism - hateful organisations murdering innocent people and then trying to justify their brutality by hiding behind a "cause". Terrorism is terrorism.

 

[Chuckus]

There is only one form of terrorism - hateful organisations murdering innocent people and then trying to justify their brutality by hiding behind a "cause". Terrorism is terrorism.

Well, I did make a typo............what I meant to say was this....

Maybe after we kick the asses of those who committed this haneous crime of 9/11/01, we should investigate and execute plans to annihilate others who commit the same type of crime.

Dunno, we first have to take care of busines at hand.

 

[Chuckus]

There is only one form of terrorism - hateful organisations murdering innocent people and then trying to justify their brutality by hiding behind a "cause". Terrorism is terrorism.

and you are right terrorism is terrorism.

 

[bluntforcemama]

I have a better idea.... why don't we dress up like the KKK and go around killing everyone that we think just might be a terrorist, or was a terrorist, or maybe someone who WILL be a terrorist. The hell with proof, right? Makes perfect sense, doesn't it? And then your gods will let you into heaven for YOUR martyrism, am I right? Because ultimately it comes down to you are right and they are wrong. There's no possible way you could be wrong, because you're always right. Your God is the right one, your Book is the right one, your way is this right one. You live in the right country, you eat the right foods, you have sex the right way, you think the right way. Wow... such a worldly approach! I'm so disgusted!

 

[alexander tzara]

Chuckus - basically my point is deal with Bin Laden and his training camps. Maybe take down the Taliban who are harboring him. But try to avoid killing lots of innocent Afghani's who have fuck all to do with any of this and are so poor they don't have any tv, radio, mail etcetera and so don't even know about the attrocities that happened on tuesday.

Now, I've got to go, 'cause there's a hot lil' American I very much want to talk to.

 

[Gilly Bean]

I do not hold any country responsible. I hold the people who did it responsible.

 

[morninggirl5]

like Iran, Iraq, Libya, Sudan and Syria who finance, harbor, and support terrorists?

Are you ready for a war, or just another smoking aspirin factory?

As amazing at it is to me, I agree with Senator Zell Miller.

The message we as a country have to forcefully send is simple. If you finance, harbor, or support terrorist who attack the United States, you attack the United States as surely as if you dropped a bomb on one of our ships. We can no longer fight terrorists and nations that nurture terrorism with limited engagements of minimal risk to ourselves. We cannot draw lines in the sand and force our military to hold themselves in check. We must give our military full reign to destroy terrorists, their financiers, their nurturers, their entire existance. The only thing terrorists understand is force and we must unleash the full force of our military and accept that it will not be a police action, but a war with all the unpleasant realities war brings.

 

[shadowsource]

Chile!

They bombed Washington, DC in the late 70s to kill a Chilean exile and his American aide, whose widower I used to know. The US accepted this, as we had helped install the government behind it - Pinochet.

 

[alexander tzara]

Morninggirl - Bin Laden doesn't care about Afghanistan. If he did he would have used all his Saudi wealth to make sure there wasn't 25% of the population starving to death, as there is right now, instead of using it to fund terrorist attrocities. It doesn't look very much like the Taliban cares very much for the people of Afghanistan either. They don't care if we massacre thousands of innocent people there. We should.

Like I said on page 2:

This was a devastating attrocity. It completely saddened me, scared me and filled me with rage. I think the reality is that we need to somehow take-out Bin Laden and utterly destroy his training camps. We may even have to go to war directly with a specific country, probably his hosts, the Taliban of Afghanistan. But, at the same time, we have to make sure we don't do it in a stupid, heavy handed and counter-productive way. The response has to be considered, intelligent and effective. I realise that I'm pointing out the obvious here but I just want to balance the 'KILL EVERY FUCKER IN SITE' sentiments I've seen at times on the board.

What was Bin Laden's ultimate aim? He didn't just think, 'Let's attack America and cause the greatest terrorist attrocity ever then just see what happens, take it from there.' He's a psychopathic fanatasist but he's not stupid. He wants America and the West to be so horror-struck and furious (which we absolutely are) that we storm visibly into Afghanistan on the back of John Wayne's old horse and massacre everyone in sight. That's playing right into his hands. Once you do that suddenly he, or his successor, is there to unleash a bombast of anti-American, anti-Western propaganda to all the disenfranchised Moslems living in pretty much every country in the world: 'These Americans are attacking our Arab countries, killing our innocent men, women and children. America and the West don't care about us. They are the enemy. For the glory of Allah you must stand up to them, take this matter into your own hands....' etcetera etcetera.... you get the picture. Suddenly then you've got fundamentalist fanatics working alone, Timothy McVeigh-style, attacking us from within. It's horrible to think about this, but what's to stop suicide bombers with nuclear devices in suitcases from causing square miles of devastation and carnage in our cities?

At the moment the majority of the Arab world is pretty much anti-Bin Laden, but scenes of celebration in Pakistan and Palestine show the level of antagonism towards America that is already there, bubbling under the surface. If we play this right, Bin Laden (dead or alive) remains pretty much vilified and ostracised by the majority of the Moslem world. If we play it wrong, we could seriously fuck everything up. Just now he probably has an immediate army of a few thousand. We don't want that to increase to tens or hundreds of thousands of people willing to die in his name. Basically, we can't just drop bombs randomly on Afghanistan, massacring innocent people. We have to strategically attack military targets, maybe do something like send in the Secret Services, SAS etcetera to track down Bin Laden and his armies. Maybe we need to bring down the Taliban. That's who our war is with: the terrorists and their accomplices, not the innocent people who just happen to live in that country. Bear in mind that about 80-90% of the the population of Afghanistan live in rural comminities with no television, no radio, no proper roads, no mail, basically no contact with the outside world. They know nothing of the terrible attrocities commited on Tuesday. A quarter of them are starving and there are currently Christian Aid workers there helping because they're in the middle of a drought. Do you want to hold them directly responsible for Bin Laden's actions or the fact that the Taliban has given him a safe haven?

 

[registered "^^"]

All aid workers from the free world have left. As will they leave all other countries that hide terrorists.

 

[alexander tzara]

Yeah, they've withdrawn 'cause it would look bad if "some of our boys******" got caught in the crossfire. The UN are obviously preparing for the worst.

 

[Guest]

I am an American in favor of military force as a reaction to the horrible events of the past week. Alexander Tzara is absolutely correct. If we strike randomly without clear, precise objectives we will only enflame the passions of hatred throughout the Middle East even further. We will be fulfilling Bin Laden's desires. This is not a nation we are fighting. America is fighting terrorism. It is an ideology we are fighting. This is an ideology that does not consume the entire nation. It is an ideology that the people do not promote. If we attack the innocents we will simply enrage the remainder of the Arab world.

I am well aware that many posters on this board will say, fuck the Arabs or nuke them. All this will do is cause America greater trouble diplomatically, politically, economically, and militarily in the future. Even if America has the capacity to rule by might, it is not the greatest alternative. America exerting her balls of steel at this time only spreads animosity. It also opens her up for more attacks in the future. Not by Bin Laden, but by all the new groups that learn to thrive off of the region's hatred for American policy.

Maybe America should take a step back. Maybe America should rethink its foreign policy. The vast majority of Americans do not comprehend the reasons behind our policy with Arab nations. It is a strategic alliance. It is a quest for a balance of power in the Middle East. Even though many are calling these attacks senseless, that is not an appropriate word. These acts were not senseless. They were deliberately executed by an organization who has a very specific goal and a very detailed reason to hate America. Most nations of the world and many in the United States were not as shocked by the horrors of this week. Many members of the international community knew this type of terror would occur in America. It was only a matter of time. In response, America and her citizens needs to gain awareness of the way the world sees them.

America must practice the civility and regard for human rights that she preaches. If you don't practice what you preach how can you expect other nations to follow your lead. This is a make or break time for America in the global community. I am currently pleased by the Bush Administration's patience and the fact that they did not immediately launch an attack. It is evident that they recognize the need for a change. We shall see in the next few weeks and months if America will continue exercising such an intelligent policy. Retaliation and justice must occur in light of this tragedy. But, remember the American definition of justice. This is not time to play cowboys and indians. The bad guy is hard to define. Don't make the definition overbroad. It is a tough military task to accomplish. If any nation can accomplish this feat, it is America.

 

[lavender]

 

[Chuckus]

Lavendar,

I couldn't agree with you more. Maybe some of my posts in this very thread were harsh and over reaction on my part........yes we as Americans need to take a step back. Think. Think again. Then act. We must have a clear head for what is about to take place.

We must find the real problem here. Deal with the problem. Deal with the events that led those who attacked the US. In order to deal with the disease we must also deal with the symptoms and try to treat the disease and the symptoms. Does that make sense?

 

[alexander tzara]

Lavendar,

I couldn't agree with you more. Maybe some of my posts in this very thread were harsh and over reaction on my part........yes we as Americans need to take a step back. Think. Think again. Then act. We must have a clear head for what is about to take place.

We must find the real problem here. Deal with the problem. Deal with the events that led those who attacked the US. In order to deal with the disease we must also deal with the symptoms and try to treat the disease and the symptoms. Does that make sense?

Yes, that makes sense.

 

[shadowsource]

Afghanis -

Like Iranians and Pakistanis, etc., are NOT Arabs.

 

[shadowsource]

In fact...

... There was a public TV show not so long ago that posited the Pathans/Pushtos/whatever one calls them as one of the Lost Tribes of Israel. Which must piss them off immensely, as they are the Afghani tribe from which the Taliban derived.

 

[Svedish_Chef]

We must find the real problem here. Deal with the problem. Deal with the events that led those who attacked the US. In order to deal with the disease we must also deal with the symptoms and try to treat the disease and the symptoms.

 

[alexander tzara]

Re: Afghanis -

Like Iranians and Pakistanis, etc., are NOT Arabs.

You're right. Sorry. I've probably used the word "Arab", when I meant Moslems in general.