Do the Palestinians have a right to their own State/Nation?

[modest mouse]

To my mind, this is the primary question that precedes any discussion of resolution between Israel and the Palestinians.

Israel seems determined to deny the Palestinians such a right but in turn demands they have the organization and structure that would be more readily available in the context of a proper Palestinian state.

I'm sick of the condemnation of Palestinian actions as if I should be surprised. Deny a people a homeland and isolate them, always watching their backs, and see how they react. Funny how this argument could have been made pre-Israel about the opposition.

Until some recognition of the Palestinian people takes place; peace seems merely a dream.

***

My answer?

An emphatic Yes.

 

[Marxist]

I'm with you Jennifer....er Mouse.

They have to have a homeland if there is to be a lasting peace. If they were sent somewhere tropical do you think they'd forget all about the rocks and dust?

 

[lavender]

 

[Problem Child]

I'm with you Jennifer....er Mouse.

They have to have a homeland if there is to be a lasting peace. If they were sent somewhere tropical do you think they'd forget all about the rocks and dust?

Which begs the question..why do they wanna live in that shit-hole anyway? Which then begs the question...can you believe people actually like living in Texas?

Religion...I'll never get it.

 

[Rubyfruit]

My husband is jewish. I've grilled him extensively on the history of Israel, because, frankly, it doesn't make sense to me.

Why did anybody think it was a good idea to take away the home of one and give it to another without their permission?

Look at how much world discord this has caused. It's mind-boggling.

Yes, Palestine deserves it's own home. But they probably want the one they were forced out of.

Ron contends that Israel was created because nobody wanted to deal with the jews after the war. Is this true?

Israel was a bad idea and now we're all stuck with it. I don't see peace in that region, or the world.

Personally, I think Israel should get out. Give it back for the better of the whole.

 

[p_p_man]

Rubyfruit - a lot of guilt about the Holocaust...

...helped the Zionist case for a homeland in Palestine. But the groundwork and original broken promises to the Arab Legion go back to the First World War.

In 1917 the Balfour Declaration stated the need for the establishment of a Jewish State in Palestine. This declaration reneged on earlier promises by the British to the Arab League. Exactly why the British issued the Declaration has always been a mystery, but one story is that it was a reward to Jews for helping to bring America into the First World War by publication of the Zimmerman Note.

With this policy firmly in place it was not until after the Second World War that the Declaration could be implemented but then only by the United Nation Resolution recognising a separate Jewish state in Palestine and creating the now hated Partition.

The troubles now are a culmination of how the Jews conducted themselves against the Palestinians from 1948, the First Arab/Israeli War. A war that Palestine took no part in but in which 75% of Palestinians fled from the war zone to live in refugee camps along the various borders surrounding Palestine.

The Israelis, as they were known by then, occupied a sizeable chunk of Palestine and after that first war, they passed two main pieces of legislation which gave them the right to take over the land and property of the Palestinians still living in Refugee Camps.

The first law restricted the movement of Palestinians within Palestine and the second declared that any Palestinian property (ie farms, land etc) that remained uncultivated automatically became the property of Israel.

As the Palestinians could not move within Palestine under the first law, they couldn't travel to their property to cultivate it under the second. Two nasty pieces of legislation designed solely to make a nation homeless and to allow Israel to take over.

That's very much the bear bones of it all. I could write pages on the whole thing but I'd only bore you and anyway it's all on the internet if you look.

Suffice to say that Israel, especially under Sharon, the Butcher of Beirut, has seriously overstepped the mark and has been allowed to do so with American help.

As your President Truman once said, he didn't have 100,000 Arab constituents to worry about. Nowadays I doubt if he could make that type of comment, he would probably have more Arab constituents than Jewish ones.

 

[Weird Harold]

P_P_Man: A question or two...

since you seem to be well versed in the history of Palestine and Modern Isreal.

1: Has there ever been an independent Palestine prior to the Un resolution that created Modern Isreal and Palestine as independent countries?

2: Do you believe that Isreal has a right to exist?

 

[p_p_man]

Re: P_P_Man: A question or two...

since you seem to be well versed in the history of Palestine and Modern Isreal.

1: Has there ever been an independent Palestine prior to the Un resolution that created Modern Isreal and Palestine as independent countries?

2: Do you believe that Isreal has a right to exist?

1. Palestine was 'owned' by the Turkish Empire prior to the Mandate for Palestine being assigned by the Supreme Court of the League of Nations at its San Remo meeting in April 1920. The Mandate, under British rule, came into force on September 29, 1922, (along with the Mandate for Syria).

Palestine was under British Mandate until 1948 when UN Resolution 181, partioning the territory of Palestine between the Jews and Palestinians, came into force.

Two months after the British left, independent Arab and Jewish States and the special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem came into existence.

There was no independent Palestinian State before UN Resolution 181.

2. Yes

As a couple of informative background papers on this subject I'd recommend:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00ps0

which is the full text of the UN Resolution and

http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html

which are a series of historical papers on the subject published as "The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict" by the 'Jews for Justice in the Middle East' in easy to read form.

There are plenty of other, heavier tomes around on the net if you want to extend your knowledge.

 

[Andreina]

The whole trouble started off (diplomatically) with the Balfour Declaration of 1917, which was an official statement by the British foreign secretary supporting a Jewish national home in Palestine. I think the words were something like "His Majestys Government views with favour the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people on Palestinian territory...."

This fiercely contradicted the Husayn-McMahon agreement of 1915-16; letters were exchanged by Amir Husayn and Britain's high commissioner in Cairo offering British aid for the Arabs' independence in exchange for Arab support against the Ottoman Empire.

Important is also the Sykes-Picot pact, which was a secret pact formed in 1916 among Britain, France and Russia outlining their plan to partition the Ottoman Empire after WW1. With that pact they tried to strengthen their own position in the Middle East while weakening the dying Ottoman Empire.

Now, I'm not saying that is mainly Britain's fault but just that there has been confusion from the beginning. Both Britain and France played important roles as colonial powers in the Middle East and influenced the people and politics greatly. To this day, Israel is the biggest receiver of US foreign aid while Egypt is at number 2.

I'm of the firm opinion that Palestine deserves to have its own state. I'm also convinced that Gaza is the world's biggest prison, with people living in unbelievable conditions.


Just my two cents....
Halo

 

[p_p_man]

LittleDevilWithAHalo

What you have described is the foundation for the present conflict. The 'stage setting' if you like.

Britain had a lot to do with the it with the Balfour Declaration in 1917, and America, being the strongest proponent for partition in 1947 helped the process along. As well as so completely and openly being Israel's ally.

Not all Israel's leaders have been vicious thugs but unfortunately the people seem to vote them in at moments in their history when moderation should be the order of the day. Ben Gurion who admitted in private that he wanted the whole of Palestine for the Jewish people, and now Sharon with his history of massacres indiscriminate killing and obvious intent on the destruction of the Palestinian people.

Israel should withdraw to within it's legal boundaries as a starter. If Israeli settlers have to be uprooted in the process then so be it. They shouldn't be there in the first place.

But even this moderate beginning would need the support of the United States, and I can't see that happening at the moment, with Bush in the White House.

ppman

 

[Andreina]

Re: LittleDevilWithAHalo

<snip> and now Sharon with his history of massacres indiscriminate killing and obvious intent on the destruction of the Palestinian people.

Israel should withdraw to within it's legal boundaries as a starter. If Israeli settlers have to be uprooted in the process then so be it. They shouldn't be there in the first place.

Sharon is a joke in my eyes - as incompetent as Netanyahu and as diplomatically inept as Magaret Thatcher (just a handbag is missing). Yitzhak Rabin was probably the last one who could have really pushed things forward with the Palestinian Question, unfortunately the divisions between the Sephardim and the Ashkenazim within Israel itself made this impossible. Ehud Barak had good chances but he was elected at the wrong time.

As far as I'm concerened Israel can play out its cards as it wants to because the U.S. are still greatly supporting her. I'm not saying that this is wrong (well, okay... it does look like bully-pushing) but Israel thinks that because of what happend to the Jewish people in WW2 it has now the right to do whatever they feel like doing. In fact, and I would like to say it here and now and as clearly as possible, I am not anti-semitic or racist, the Israeli's are probably the world's biggest Xenophobes.

Do I think there will ever be a peaceful solution? Not in the next 50 years....

Halo

 

[Weird Harold]

Re: Re: P_P_Man: A question or two...

Two months after the British left, independent Arab and Jewish States and the special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem came into existence.

There was no independent Palestinian State before UN Resolution 181.

2. Yes

That confirms what I thought I had read elsewhere -- that Isreal nd Palestine have equal historical claims to the territory they were alloted.

Unfortunately, the surrounding arab states and the Palestinians chose to attack the newly formed Isreal immediately and lost the Palestinians chance at a peaceful nation of thier own.

I agree that Isreal should pull back to their "legal" borders and allow the Palestinians to rule within their "legal" borders. However, I can easily understand the Isreali xenophobia -- they have been at war since the day the became independent and still deal daily with attacks by people who claim they have no right to exist. I, personally, would be very reluctant to allow a neighbor who has sworn to destroy me to fortify the house next door.

I don't know what the solution is. I do know that modern Isreal has been in a fight for it's very existance since the day they became independant and cn find little fault with them turning Arab tactics against Arabs to survive.

Palestine had their chance at a nation of their own, and blew it. I'm not sure Isreal and the rest of the world should give them and their Arab allies a second chance.

 

[Andreina]

Re: Re: Re: P_P_Man: A question or two...

That confirms what I thought I had read elsewhere -- that Isreal nd Palestine have equal historical claims to the territory they were alloted.

Unfortunately, the surrounding arab states and the Palestinians chose to attack the newly formed Isreal immediately and lost the Palestinians chance at a peaceful nation of thier own.

I agree that Isreal should pull back to their "legal" borders and allow the Palestinians to rule within their "legal" borders. However, I can easily understand the Isreali xenophobia -- they have been at war since the day the became independent and still deal daily with attacks by people who claim they have no right to exist. I, personally, would be very reluctant to allow a neighbor who has sworn to destroy me to fortify the house next door.

I don't know what the solution is. I do know that modern Isreal has been in a fight for it's very existance since the day they became independant and cn find little fault with them turning Arab tactics against Arabs to survive.

Palestine had their chance at a nation of their own, and blew it. I'm not sure Isreal and the rest of the world should give them and their Arab allies a second chance.

Israelis are xenophobic within their own rows.... Ashkenazim and Sephardim dont get on with each other. If you are not fully Jewish you dont belong to their society, etc...

Did you know that it was suggested to establish "Israel" (as in the homeland for the Jewish people) in Uganda to avoid the situation we are in now? Of course the Zionists rejected... kinda funny to think that "Israel" would be Uganda now.


Halo

 

[Mensa]

Re: Re: LittleDevilWithAHalo

As far as I'm concerened Israel can play out its cards as it wants to because the U.S. are still greatly supporting her. I'm not saying that this is wrong (well, okay... it does look like bully-pushing) but Israel thinks that because of what happend to the Jewish people in WW2 it has now the right to do whatever they feel like doing. In fact, and I would like to say it here and now and as clearly as possible, I am not anti-semitic or racist, the Israeli's are probably the world's biggest Xenophobes.
Halo

Careful! Support for Sharon in Israel is not universal, not even close to being. Israeli opinions vary from hard left to ultra-right with every variation in between. Israel is not a monolith.

 

[Weird Harold]

Did you know that it was suggested to establish "Israel" (as in the homeland for the Jewish people) in Uganda to avoid the situation we are in now? Of course the Zionists rejected... kinda funny to think that "Israel" would be Uganda now.[/I]

Perhaps the palestinians could be talked into taking over Uganda instead?

 

[Andreina]

would be nice but unfortunately the ugandese wouldnt be too happy i think

Halo

 

[Andreina]

Re: Re: Re: LittleDevilWithAHalo

Careful! Support for Sharon in Israel is not universal, not even close to being. Israeli opinions vary from hard left to ultra-right with every variation in between. Israel is not a monolith.

But here we got the dilemma: support for Arafat isnt universal either, infact he could be described as a dictator since he hasnt held elections since his elections. Recent opinion polls in Gaza and the West Bank have shown that Arafat is being reject by almost 45% of the people living there.

The whole situation is a vicious circle where the dog bites it tail with every step they take. I can understand the Israelis that they want to live where they were banished from, I can understand the Palestinians who dont want to move (I mean, why should they, just because Lord Balfour and the UN said so?). One must not rule out the importance of the Hizballah and the Hamas though - as well as the treatment of Palestinans abroad. For example the Palestinians who fled to Lebanon are forbidden to work there, they therefore don't have an income, no any travel documents. Now talk about Arab brotherhood. But then the Lebanon can't really do anything because it is politically dominated by Syria....

Halo - who wishes that the situation in the ME wasnt so damn complicated.

 

[kotori]

<snip>
Now, I'm not saying that is mainly Britain's fault but . . .
<snip>

Same could be said in Cyprus, Kashmir, Northern Ireland, South Africa--the list goes on. "Divide and conquer" bites you in the arse. But of course, it's not limited to Britain, all of the imperialist powers of the nineteenth century have culpability in 21st century third-world problems: France, Belgium, Spain, Germany, Italy, etc.

That being said, I voted "yes" to the original question, and I also agree that Israel should exist where it does. I've been wondering how long it will take for the Palestinians to just go ahead and declare a state unilaterally? What's the downside?

 

[Mensa]

Re: Re: Re: Re: LittleDevilWithAHalo

But here we got the dilemma: support for Arafat isnt universal either, infact he could be described as a dictator since he hasnt held elections since his elections. Recent opinion polls in Gaza and the West Bank have shown that Arafat is being reject by almost 45% of the people living there.


Halo - who wishes that the situation in the ME wasnt so damn complicated.

Exactly! In fact, until the unguided missile(Sharon) bottled up Arafat in Ramallah his support and control of the Palestinians was seriously waning. Now he's more popular than ever. Sharon always seems to choose the wrong tactic.

This is the dilemma, the conundrum, that is the Middle East. Both sides are right and yet both sides are wrong. To fix one problem you end up creating another. What is the answer? If I knew, I'd be on my way to Oslo to pick up my Prize. It seems like both sides had better be prepared to accept half a loaf but neither is yet willing, so it goes on.

 

[Andreina]

The downside will be that the Palestinian state would be heavily reliant on foreign aid and since Israel is the receiver of foreign aid from the US you can guess what that would mean on a more global perspective. the US is very unlikely to stop supporting Israel financially because of the powerful Jewish lobby in the US.

Halo

 

[Andreina]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: LittleDevilWithAHalo

This is the dilemma, the conundrum, that is the Middle East. Both sides are right and yet both sides are wrong. To fix one problem you end up creating another. What is the answer? If I knew, I'd be on my way to Oslo to pick up my Prize. It seems like both sides had better be prepared to accept half a loaf but neither is yet willing, so it goes on.

There will be no solution if both sides keep on fighting about a few squarekilometeres of bare desert land. And the Palestinians will not be accepting anything from Israel if they dont pull out of their territories before.

I mean, and this i say with all passion I have, how can Israel bomb shelters with young kids. How can they cut the Gaza Strip off water supply and let people there die? How can they get away with shooting anyone in Gaza because they feel like it? All we only hear about the news is the Palestinian suicide bombers who are mostly Hamas and Hizbollah recruitants. They mark the Palestinians bad people, people who live off violence. This would be like saying that all Afghanistan were Al-Quaida fighters, and yet we have compassion with the Afghani. How can Isreal commit such atrocities without being charged?

They can because they are Israel. Because they have suffered so much in the hands of my people in the past that the world now gives them a blank receipt for the future.
This is plainly wrong.

Halo

 

[Mensa]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: LittleDevilWithAHalo

There will be no solution if both sides keep on fighting about a few squarekilometeres of bare desert land. And the Palestinians will not be accepting anything from Israel if they dont pull out of their territories before.

I mean, and this i say with all passion I have, how can Israel bomb shelters with young kids. How can they cut the Gaza Strip off water supply and let people there die? How can they get away with shooting anyone in Gaza because they feel like it? All we only hear about the news is the Palestinian suicide bombers who are mostly Hamas and Hizbollah recruitants. They mark the Palestinians bad people, people who live off violence. This would be like saying that all Afghanistan were Al-Quaida fighters, and yet we have compassion with the Afghani. How can Isreal commit such atrocities without being charged?

They can because they are Israel. Because they have suffered so much in the hands of my people in the past that the world now gives them a blank receipt for the future.
This is plainly wrong.

Halo

It is realpolitik at is basest. Neither side can claim the high moral ground anymore. Under Barak, Israel was prepared to go farther than she had ever. Radical Palestinians who live in a dream world where they can ultimately defeat Israel wanted to sabotage it. They didn't want a peaceful solution, they wanted Israel destroyed. They stepped up their campaign of subversion and were successful. Now opinion on both sides has hardened. It reminds one of Northern Ireland, the never-ending war.

 

[Andreina]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: LittleDevilWithAHalo

It is realpolitik at is basest.

It reminds me best of Classical Realism, the ideology that should have died out in 70ies, or rather that did widely die out in the 70ies. Two enemies with their guns on a wide and lonely landscape.

*sighs*

How come you became interested in the Middle East?


Halo

 

[daughter]

p_p and mouse

Damn you both for making intelligent, engaging discussion on this matter. I said I didn't want no part of this politic stuff.

Hell, you sucked me in.

Yes, Palestine should be an independent state. When has an oppressed group not rebelled? Don't always win, but you can't dog folks and then act surprised when they retaliate.

Peace,

daughter

((okay, I'm staying out and I mean it this time))

 

[kotori]

The downside will be that the Palestinian state would be heavily reliant on foreign aid and since Israel is the receiver of foreign aid from the US you can guess what that would mean on a more global perspective. the US is very unlikely to stop supporting Israel financially because of the powerful Jewish lobby in the US.

I'm sure US aid would continue to Israel, but you have to admit that if the whole region cooled down a bit (which I would assume could happen if the Palestinian "question" were answered), the quantity of military aid could be greatly reduced. Regarding the power of Jewish influence in the US, it is truly well established, but the most recent census actually showed Moslems equalling Jews--demographics change quicker than political power, but as the voting block grows larger, and memory (of WWII) fainter, there is less future for the Jewish lobby.