Discussion topic stuck in my head: Writing for the story vs writing for the reader

[Alex756]

Now I am going to assume we all end up in a situation like this at some point.

Dr. M's story is what brought it up to the point of festering away in my mind.

What to do when you have a story and you could write it a few ways. One way you feel is truer to the story and a more well writen story, but the other will get more reader approval.

Now on Lit we are not writing for a paycheck, or to fulfill an agreement, or even necessarily to give anyone a warm fuzzy feeling.

Now between the 'award film writing' and the 'summer blockbuster' writing there is a huge grey area where you keep alot of artistic integrety but also keep alot of readers. I try to live in that grey area, where I keep me and my readers reasonably happy.

But I have stuff I think tends much more towards make -me- happy with the writing than to give a warm fuzzy, and whenever people ask what they should read of mine, I steer them towards something a little more 'warm fuzzy' that if I were more able to write for the audience would be the 'summer blockbuster' style and over looked by the critics

Now every once in a while someone makes a award film that turns into a blockbuster (like march of the penquins to carry this analogy to the point of nausea) but thats obviously a rarity.

So what are the opinions of others on where to draw the balance? Or is this something only I think about and ponder and try to decide should I do what I think is right in this story or should I go for the vote.

I just needed to ask this and since the board is soo slow this summer, figured an extra thing to discuss couldn't hurt

--Alexandra

 

[Penelope Street]

Hi Alex!

You didn't like the penguins?!

I write for me. Usually, that means a warm and fuzzy finish , but not always. I never go for 'the vote'. If anyone else enjoys my stories, that's a bonus.

Take Care,
Penny

 

[Alex756]

Hi Alex!

You didn't like the penguins?!

I write for me. Usually, that means a warm and fuzzy finish , but not always. I never go for 'the vote'. If anyone else enjoys my stories, that's a bonus.

Take Care,
Penny

Actually I LOVE when an 'awards' film takes over by word of mouth and shows hollywood we want originality. Its like when a well written piece of literature makes the New York times ....


Sorry for confusion, pain killers do that to me

But it just seems there are things writen to be well written and things written to be popular and hardly ever do the 2 meet.

I mean, when writing an academic paper, I soo write for my audience, If a prof has a pet example from someone I try and use that. I once had a prof estatic I referenced her fav philosopher.

But here on lit I don't feel the compulsion really to write for the audience, So I was wondering about others

-A

 

[wishfulthinking]

I'm not sure, but I think with Doc he didn't want to end the story that way either, but to do it justice, he had too.

I guess a negative reaction [even translated to a 1 vote] is just as important as a positive one, because it means you've touched the reader on some level.

Yeah, I write for myself, and if other people like it, good for them. But initially, I wondered what readers would think and vote, and I worried how I would react if I had a score of 1.25 of something. But I got over it, because I think writers on lit and elsewhere find their niche of readers, and for everyone who likes it no doubt someone else back clicks. I think you do well on lit when you find a readership base tuned to your writing, thoughts, desires, fantasies etc, rather than tailoring your writing to try and appeal to a particular audience.

ramble over

 

[Pure]

i think one writes for the reader, or a subset of them. else you'd leave the mss in the drawer/harddrive.

let's not forget some of the greats *were* popular or even serialized their stuff, like Dickens. Shakespeare. Dostoevsky{?}. even a private person like Emily Dickinson left her poems in little packets. like those who keep a diary private *but* expect/hope it will be read.

that said, i think of it as an exercize in craft and cleverness to set out to, and write, a best seller. several people have done this. i tried it once at lit., to go for the 100,000 views, and it's a kind of test. like trying to market a hamburger a million people will buy. romance writers fall in this category: there are rules and formulas; if you follow them, show some originality and pretty it up, tens of thousands of women will buy the thing.

 

[Penelope Street]

i think one writes for the reader, or a subset of them. else you'd leave the mss in the drawer/harddrive.

I leave stories on my harddrive. Lots of them. One could argue I post for the reader, but that doesn't change what I write.

that said, i think of it as an exercize in craft and cleverness to set out to, and write, a best seller. several people have done this. i tried it once at lit., to go for the 100,000 views, and it's a kind of test. like trying to market a hamburger a million people will buy.

Interesting idea, to actually write a story with the intention of seeking reads and votes. I can imagine at least one formula that might do well, probably even has done well, but it's exactly the sort of story I in no way wish to be associated with.

romance writers fall in this category: there are rules and formulas; if you follow them, show some originality and pretty it up, tens of thousands of women will buy the thing.

Sad, but in so many ways true. Most of my friends who read such novels are sans partner- or worse. I confess, that's when they appealed to me. It's a wonder divorce lawyers haven't figured it out and started advertising on the back of the last page. I guess the flip side is the magazine cover formula that gets tens of thousands of men to buy it. Just as sad, when one stops to think about it.

I think you do well on lit when you find a readership base tuned to your writing, thoughts, desires, fantasies etc, rather than tailoring your writing to try and appeal to a particular audience.

Hard to fault that advice.

 

[Singularity]

Splitting the Difference

I can definitely echo this thought.

I think you do well on lit when you find a readership base tuned to your writing, thoughts, desires, fantasies etc, rather than tailoring your writing to try and appeal to a particular audience.

I have found a wonderful audience with the "Training Michelle" series and its successor stories, and others that followed in the same vein. They found her and latched on to her as someone they thoroughly loved.

After a while though, I wanted to try some different things. I found that while some of the regular readers enjoyed the stories I experimented with, and where I ventured into different Lit categories, many did not like them as well, or simply didn't follow me into those other areas. In most cases, they didn't DISLIKE the other stuff, it just didn't excite them the same way.

So what I've done now is to divide my time between the Michelle-type stories - which I still enjoy writing by the way - and the "experimentals". This way I get to satisfy both sides - the audience that has "grown up" with Michelle as their inspiration and also my desire to stretch myself a bit as a writer and try some things that I couldn't do within a Michelle-type story.

The two-track approach is what seems to best balance things for me.


Sin.

 

[wishfulthinking]

I can definitely echo this thought.

After a while though, I wanted to try some different things. I found that while some of the regular readers enjoyed the stories I experimented with, and where I ventured into different Lit categories, many did not like them as well, or simply didn't follow me into those other areas. In most cases, they didn't DISLIKE the other stuff, it just didn't excite them the same way.

I have a second lit alt for that, and only about 2 have asked me if am I also wishful because my regular readers don't venture there

 

[drlust]

Me or them?

I write the story as it comes to me. Sometimes they come to me when I'm walking across campus, or in a store, or stuck in traffic on the way home. I never know when one is going to appear, but when it does, I try like hell to get it down on the page or into the computer, whichever is handier at the moment. I've learned, by the way, to keep a notepad in the car for those stuck in traffic moments. The stories unfold as they do because that's just the way they go.

But then, when I think about publishing them, I start to think about how readers might react and that thinking often influences my editing decisions. I find that I can't bring myself to change a story to suit an audience and of late that's panned out well for me. My most recent successful stories on this site are those that I've edited the least. But that doesn't mean I don't think about the audience--I try to put myself in their position and look at the story as they might. But usually this is technical editing -- word choice, paragraph length, story line consistency, pacing. The essense of the story doesn't change very often.

And then there are those that I just don't share, either because they aren't fully formed and I don't think anyone would want to read them, much less like them, or because they cut a little too close to the bone.

Allan

 

[Singularity]

Multiple Personalities

I've thought about using a second nom-de-kink for the more adventurous excursions into new territory; but I decided that since I'm proud of all of my liliterary offspring, I'll keep the same name for all of them.

It's all right if some of the regular Michelle readers don't care for the other ones. Though it is fun sometimes, to surprise them with something they weren't expecting.


Sin.

 

[Alex756]

i think one writes for the reader, or a subset of them. else you'd leave the mss in the drawer/harddrive.

let's not forget some of the greats *were* popular or even serialized their stuff, like Dickens. Shakespeare. Dostoevsky{?}. even a private person like Emily Dickinson left her poems in little packets. like those who keep a diary private *but* expect/hope it will be read.

that said, i think of it as an exercize in craft and cleverness to set out to, and write, a best seller. several people have done this. i tried it once at lit., to go for the 100,000 views, and it's a kind of test. like trying to market a hamburger a million people will buy. romance writers fall in this category: there are rules and formulas; if you follow them, show some originality and pretty it up, tens of thousands of women will buy the thing.

I think this truly shows the differant reasons people write here. I don't write here for any reason where the idea of trying to write a best seller would appeal to me. I am not saying its a bad thing or a good thing, just it isn't my thing.

Also who everyone considers to be 'great' is very subject to interpretation. All the authors you listed I would rather eat glass. I'm sure there are people out there that would rather gouge out eye balls than read what I think is great.

I do however think with the cheepness of online publication things are changing and anyone can write and even if its a group of like minded people reading someone's blog that gets 5 hits a week, the ability to share what a person is thinking exists.

I do think it is very possible to write for yourself with the reader as an aferthought. Is that how people that have gotten published think? heck no. but I don't think thats the goal of everyone. If I wanted to get published, I'd go back to writing young teen books about horse crazed girls who through some quirk of fate/luck/whatever get their dream horse, who seemed to be some unwanted thing, but turned out to be a beautiful whatnot *sigh* but honestly (and y'all think romance has a formula), if I have to write about a pair reins, I'd rather have them twapping a nice butt.

Maybe this is why prior to lit I -did- leave all this stuff I write hidden, the anonimity of the fake name and such just emboldens to put it out there.,

So I guess I answered the question on where I'd LIKE to go if the road diverges between what the story wants and what a reader would want ... maybe I just have to make sure thats what I actually do.

-A

 

[wishfulthinking]

What I said is based on my experience posting on Lit. I'm not published, and have no intention of being published in the near future [say 3 years]. The main reason besides time is that all the stories I have written are on lit, and I haven't finished 1 of them!

Writing to get published is a different thing altogether, and perhaps setting out to write a best seller is what works. I honestly wouldn't know.

 

[Harrowborg]

Not to go all hallmark cliched, but personally, I do try to mix things up just a little bit. I will freely admit a couple of my stories were writtin in thee um, heat of the moment so when I developed them I certainly had on my mind what other people would like to read and so edited them accordingly. in hindsight i realise i should have perhaps been a bit more clear headed by this but they have turned out to be the stories with the most positive feedback.

a couple i have written from personal experience where i take a much more, selfish approach to editting i guess. i do this because im writing about my feelings, thoughts etc, what drove me to make the choices i did. usually, the 'sex act' doesn't occur until much later in the story if at all. i personally find these stories better as an author as when i proof read it, i do think this is a good story, the characters are believable, the motivation is there and its not just another wham,bam thank you ma'am type tale.

i guess my point here is that i personally write two types of stories, those that satisfy the general pervert looking for quick wank material, as lets be honest, this is what they are at times, and the more honest, more real stories that come from personal experience that i really dont care if they appeal to the main stream. if i changed these to suit others, i wouldn't be happy and my writing would reflect this.

did any of that make sense? lol i hope so.

 

[oggbashan]

Mix

Most of my earlier stories and developments from them were written for a specific and very limited audience.

I still write stories for limited audiences particularly obscure or not mainstream fetishes. Sometimes I ridicule them e.g. His Bad Hair Day and The Vinyl Dress.

I think my best stories are those where I wasn't thinking of the audience at all and just writing the story as it came to me.

Don't be afraid to experiment. Your ratings may suffer - mine certainly do, but it can help your development as a writer.

Og

PS. You can fail. It's allowed. You can always delete the failure later.

 

[Alex756]

Most of my earlier stories and developments from them were written for a specific and very limited audience.

I still write stories for limited audiences particularly obscure or not mainstream fetishes. Sometimes I ridicule them e.g. His Bad Hair Day and The Vinyl Dress.

I think my best stories are those where I wasn't thinking of the audience at all and just writing the story as it came to me.

Don't be afraid to experiment. Your ratings may suffer - mine certainly do, but it can help your development as a writer.

Og

PS. You can fail. It's allowed. You can always delete the failure later.

Og, in all honesty, some of the bravery you've shown in you rposting has had an inpact on what I'm willing to write.

I'm no longer writing for an audience here, if I want to write for an audience I have alot of other places to do it where I can sell my art for a few bucks by following the rules, I'd rather take lit as the grand experiment I see it as. Very few rules (OK I bitch about the ones that are there I admit it...) and a grande forum for free expression. So I have to cut back the violence and maybe occasionally modify someones age, originally I was thinking a secondary character shuld have been like 17, no big deal to make her 18, totally understand that.

And yeah, whats the point of ratings half the time, if youhave a story doing good someone will 1 bomb it anyways better to stick in the realm of not caring about that

I am considering a second lit name, just to get my star trek fanfic off the main one (cause face it that is a very target market ... I think me and maybe 4 other people ) and just letting the rest of it hang out where it is

-Alex

 

[oOScarletWingsOo]

Cents

But here on lit I don't feel the compulsion really to write for the audience, So I was wondering about others

-A

It seems that you've really answered your own question here with this statement. Add in what you put previously about folks not writing for compensation on -- that says it all.

I think first and foremost a person should persue their passion for the pure passion of it rather than for recognition or success, because if the success doesn't happen, aren't you left with a void bigger than any amount of great work can fill?

Now, that's not to say that targeting a piece or two toward a particular group is wrong, or selling out. If it's well recieved it only goes to prove that you can churn out what is deemed "popular". The body of your work will be the true testament of your view point and artistic statement. And who knows, like so many other artisits, your work will be appreciated long after what is "popular" is out of vogue.

SW

 

[caramelgirl_2]

Great Great Question....

And i think that having a different pen name for stories with different slants is a good idea and then again not.
I think if it is a story which has a fetish that is not shared by the majority of readers of a story you are known for, and/or if you are intending to produce a large body of work with that different fetish/slant, then it would be helpful to the reading audience if a writer gave herself a different name for those stories.
One reason against a different pen name is that there are some audiences who like the combination of both fetishes/slants in the story just as the writer might. So one or two along the way that are slightly different from what is seen as "the writer's norm", could please a few readers, if not the majority.
Which comes to the question--as already mentioned-- who is the writer writing for? Himself, or the audience??? I guess I do it for both. But where my personal give and take is, I'm not sure yet.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I think that there can be give and take on the issue. Often, when writing for Lit or for myself, I assume that the work will not be published in the traditional sense and let myselfgo where I want. However, I often find that in revision, it's not only easier to imagine an audience to whom the story might be directed, but also fruitful to do so. It stops me from excusing those elements that are simply bad writing and makes the work as a whole more coherent and more focused. When I'm just writing for me, it can be difficult to tell which of my many moods and fancies I might be trying to appeal to, and that can make the story disjointed and a bit schizophrenic. When I draw myself gently to an audience, it helps to clarify my goals and guide my revisions.

Shanglan

 

[Boxlicker101]

Personally, I write for myself. I write stories that I would want to read. Since I am one of the wank type perverts that Harrowborg mentioned, I write for other wank type perverts and for frig type perverts. The highest praise I could get would be from some readers telling how hard or how wet I got them or that I got them off or that they read my stories together before sex or other things like that.

In other words, I write smut for people who like to read smut.

 

[saucyvox]

I'm far more inclined to write for myself/muse than for the reader, but then, I'm not a paid author (yet!). If the pressure to produce existed, I might consider the reader a bit more...

They call that selling out though, eh? Harumph. You can't please everybody, so you might as well start with your self!

Saucy

 

[pornwriter]

Write for yourself. Its your story, tell it your way.

If the reader doesn't like it, he can always go write his own story now can't he?

I have read too many threads here on Lit where writers are paying too much attention to scores and criticisms of readers.
These guys have a degree in Literature?

Have fun with it, and let it go.

 

[caramelgirl_2]

Write for yourself. Its your story, tell it your way.

If the reader doesn't like it, he can always go write his own story now can't he?

I have read too many threads here on Lit where writers are paying too much attention to scores and criticisms of readers.
These guys have a degree in Literature?

Have fun with it, and let it go.

Great point, which I went through the past couple months working on a serialized story for Lit.
When I think of any reading I do for pleasure (be it literature or otherwise), I'm led to it by the subject matter-- maybe the character is like me, or the conflict is a situation I find intriguing. I KEEP reading not necessarily because the character does something I like, but because the way the author treats the conflict and/or character keeps me interested.
I have a difficult time trying to write a story FOR someone in particular, because, to me, the character becomes a person that has his/her own personality, and that personality develops while I'm writing. I can't dictate that he or she will definitely do what the audience may want him or her to do.
I feel like if I want to write to please other people to that extent, I might as well write a term paper or something.

 

[Daevious]

Good Ideas - Write what you love and it shows.

Greetings, all. I just started uploading a bunch of stories I've been working on for some time. The story should be aimed at a specific audience: I write for one person or a couple. Sometimes the person is me; more often it is my wife or a former lover of hers or mine. The stories are gifts - what works for one person doesn't turn a different person on.

The bottom line remains to write what you feel. High or low marks mean nothing or less than nothing. If the story makes you happy, write it. I will be more than happy to read.

Cheers!

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I make a disctinction between pornography and erotica that the dictionary doesn't make. To me, porn is writing intended to do nothing more than sexually arouse and titillate. What Box is talking about is porn in its purest sense: stories intended to get us hard or wet.

Erotica (for me) is different. It's the literature of sex. It tries to say something about the human experience of erotic love, the way we feel it and what it means and does to us.

Porn is very formulaic. Basically the readers want to see graphic descriptions of people having sex and they don't to be distracted by murders and angst and tragedy and profundity. So in that regard, when I'm writing porn, I don't want to challenge the reader. I want to keep them happy and safe in a story where everyone ends up happily ever after so they're free to enjoy the sex without worrying about whether someone's going to die or kill themselves. I started out at Lit writing porn exclusively.

It's when you get to erotica that you have the capacity (almost an obligation) to challenge the reader. Erotica asks: "Did you ever look at it this way?" "Did you ever notice this about sex?" "Have you ever felt something like this?" And it's in erotica where I think it's essential that you follow your own imagination.

Not to be too grandiose about it, but literature is about truth, the truth as the writer understands it and experiences it, as well as he's able to explain it. Insofar as you pander to the reader, or use cliches, and fall back on stock situations with stock characters, you're not dealing with the truth as you know it. You're giving people what you think they want to read. You're lying.

Lying goes fine with porn, and it's something we all do, something we have to do. Porn is sexual propaganda. It's not true. It's sex as we wish it were, not as it really is, and that's why we read it. The better you are at lying, the better your porn will be: multiple orgasms, giant tits and cocks, gallons of come, gorgeous women and handsome men. We want that in porn.

We don’t want that in erotica. (Oh, some of us do. There's the whole category of Romance writing, which is porn based on emotions rather than genitals. The things people feel in most romance stories are about as real as the sexual acts we read about in porn.) If erotica is to have any value, it has to come from the author's heart and mind. He has to take us some place we haven't been before and show us something we didn't know, which almost always involves going into his mind.

I guess what I'm saying is, if you want your porn to be good, you've got to write for your audience and give them what they want. If you want to write worthehile erotica, you'd better write from your own heart and mind, and follow it where it leads you.

Thr problem I had in "Game of Chance" was in deciding whether I wanted it to be porn or erotica. Porn demanded a Happily-Ever-After ending. Erotica demanded that I go with that darker vision and let the reader deal with the disturbing consequences. I liked the story and wanted it to be popular, and so I was very tempted to go with the HEA ending, but the disturbing ending got under my skin and wouldn't let me rest, and I decided that was worth sharing, so damn the ratings.

So I guess iIf you want to be popular, then write for your audience. But the only way you'll ever be anything more than a paid performer is by writing for yourself.

 

[Pure]

Lots of excellent points, mab.,

I agree about 'porn' generally, though there is a dimension that isn't porn specific: it's 'hack writing' or formula writing.

As you note, the non literary 'romance novels' are essentially like porn. or more broadly, writing to a formula to 'satisfy' the reader (dreams of true love).

BUT it is possible to aim for arousal, but be a bit creative; sometimes this would mean being a bit weird or 'over the top.' Some of Sade comes to mind.

Secondly, the literary works can appeal *as well* to emotions, feelings, and create arousal. For instance, a century ago, I found Story of O quite a turn on.

Lastly, I think your formula while having more than a grain of truth is too much into an 'either-or' framework, too black and white:

So I guess iIf you want to be popular, then write for your audience. But the only way you'll ever be anything more than a paid performer is by writing for yourself.

IIRC both Dickens and Dostoevsky wrote sometimes in serialized form in magazines. Somehow 'write for yourself' doesn't quite capture what I think of. That written, in truth, solely 'for onseself' stuff would be put in a drawer.

I think you have to write 'from yourself' and I think there is at least an imaginary audience-- in fact a 'niche' of readers who appreciate. Even a private person like Emily Dickinson left 'packets' of her poems, neatly tied, re copied. I believe she -- like many diarists, etc.-- did somehow have an audience in mind. Certainly she was not averse in principle since she published a handful of her poems.

It's very tricky to formulate this. Thinking of the philsophy of Nietzsche, for example. He wrote, I am greatly ahead of my time. There is no one who can understand. etc. Essentially at the later works are in a sense 'to please himself.' Yet eventually in a hundred years it happened.

So I think his polishing, etc. and not just 'drawer-ing' was done with an eventual audience of like minded souls in mind. I just don't think a majority of writers' activity can be correctly likened to singing in the shower -- done for oneself, don't care who listens. {How many Lit authors have cut off the 'comment' and 'feedback' channels, completely? Very few.}


That said, a mark of true literature is that it's writen from the core, to 'express one's truth,' etc. It's just that we humans generally want to connect.

Why did you make your posting mab, instead of just storing it on your harddrive: you wanted some people to hear your 'truth.'