Discussion: Rumple Foreskin

KillerMuffin

Seraphically Disinclined
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Jul 29, 2000
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Hey all! Once again, Rumple brings us a great new story to pick apart. This one was recently featured in the Workshop and now we get to take sights as the finished product! What a wonderful opportunity for freaks like me who really enjoy this kind of thing.

From the Author

"Love on the Levee," http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=104055 is, to the best of my knowledge, the first story to go through a SDC pre-posting Workshop then get posted and offered up for slicing and dicing on the SDC Discussion altar. This particular story is a sequel to my first Romance category post, "Moonlight & Revelation."

Rumple Foreskin
 
Evening RF,

I'm afraid I missed out on your workshop of this, so this'll be the first time I've seen this story. However that should give you a fairly unique perspective on it, as I'm sure most of the other regulars saw the workshop.

I love the opening paragraph - it's close to perfect. It's enticing, interesting and best of all it doesn't rely on sex as the hook.

You've got a weird tense going on in the flashback. You start off in a present perfect 'she had started...' and then switch to a perfect of 'she started.' Present perfect is the true flashback tense and then you switch to a storytelling tense. It feels like you were going to flashback and then decided to make it the subject of the story.

Interesting view into the head of your female character. I liked some of the random thoughts that she came up with, but have to wonder if anyone would think At some point it occurred to her that Mike was a very good kisser. In a strange sort of way, it made her proud to know her best friend was so gifted.

Damn, I'm disappointed that Mike didn't go any further. How many men would have the willpower to stop when they're that far and know that the woman would quite happily go further?

A classically beautiful redhead with a tall, graceful body, she was sure that if everything else were equal, Rene, although admittedly cute and sexy, would have been no competition.

I think you could find a better way to spread the details out than that. Plus, if you're going to describe her, then probably best to do it near the beginning of the story before the readers have any imaginations of what she looks like.

“You’re asking me if that’s the place where we made out like a couple of wild weasels?” - Interesting choice of simile here.

Romance is definitely not my thing. You leave me hugely hanging at the end. We've done all the build up and now we've got no action. And I'm not just talking about the sex. They've made their decision and then - stop. I think you could write at least another Lit page on that, maybe more.

Godd story, very well written. Not my thing and the ending annoyed me, but up to your usual high standards.

The Earl
 
Hey there,

I agree with TheEarl that this story is very good. I think it's nearly perfect = ) There are very few things that bristled me the wrong way, which is odd, since usually I'm bristling all over.

It was weird, because I know someone named "Debbie Rankin" but I got over that pretty easily. The first sentence sort of got to me because it didn't seem natural.

“What has gotten into you, girl?”

I hardly ever use the word "has" - I would probably say "What's" - so it seemed unnatural to me, personally, to see the word there. I don't know if you speak the same way as I do, but it's a personal preference stated there. Just so you know = ) Nothing really wrong, just a pet peeve.

this spot being where Mike had kissed her last spring—okay, make that where she’d kissed him. But he returned the kiss, thank God.

Exactly what TheEarl said about the tense...Had, Had, then...no Had. It just read a little awkward is all.

After she’d talked Mike’s ear off about her latest romantic disaster, he’d arrange a party here on the levee to get her out of the blues.

I'm being nitpicky again but this should be "arranged" right? Unless it happened more than one time, which I'm not sure about. Being unclear is bad in this case, I think...

Two days later, three girl friends invaded her room.

Here I actually don't know if it's a rule or just something I see more often, but I usually see "girlfriends" or such...two words instead of one made it read awkward...but again, this is just me. I'm a freak, you know, and while I don't know if I'm actually being helpful all I can really do at all is point out what reads awkward to me = )

She lifted her head and looked up at him. Even in the dim moonlight, she could make out his familiar, comforting smile and immediately felt better.

This paragraph made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I liked it a lot = ) Very good image, very good emotions...I could relate to it very easily.

Tilting her head, she began kissing her best friend.

Then he slowly leaned forward and began kissing his best friend.

Again personal hair bristle...the parallel sentences at the end of these two paragraphs read oddly for me. It might be because I frowned a little at the words "Kissing her best friend" in the first one, and then when it was doubled it made my brow wrinkle again. It might be that I just didn't like the phrase. But, maybe it's something more... Instead of ending both sentences the same way, maybe you could change it slightly. (if you're taking me seriously, that is <wink>) Maybe instead of saying "Began kissing his best friend" you could say "Began kissing his best friend back," something to draw the attention towards his reacting to her kiss, rather than as if he was starting all over again.

With an unsettling mixture of relief and regret, she understood he’d decided their making love wasn’t what was best. The kissing continued, but now it was with increasing affection and decreasing passion. He was, she realized, letting them both gradually come down from their physical and emotional high.

Again, I really liked this paragraph. I like the emotions in it, I like how he's controlling the situation and once he's made up his mind he's doing his best to "bring them down" - I really like the last sentence a lot.

A classically beautiful redhead with a tall, graceful body, she was sure that if everything else were equal, Rene, although admittedly cute and sexy, would have been no competition.

I was a little bit confused by this - it took a couple read-overs before I knew which girl you were describing. That *might* count for some sort of rephrasing, but atm I don't know what I personally would do differently. Let me get back to you on that.

Debbie shook her head and laughed, “Of course not.”

As I said earlier, I have this pet peeve for dialogue going as it would in real life. I think that Debbie would have just said "no" with a lot of sarcastic tones in her voice. I could be wrong, since she's your character and YOU know her, not me, but I thought that the longer "no" sounded a little weird.

Okay only one more negative thing:

The thing was, she had a hunch there was more to her bad mood than just the shit-eating grin she’d noticed on Melinda’s face right after the Chief Boo-Hoo said she and Harvey were husband and wife.

I thought that Debbie was the one who got married...stupid me? or not? after reaching the end of the story, which I thought was going to end sad since I went through the whole thing thinking Debbie had married Harvey, I went back and re-read and re-read this paragraph and it still felt to me like Debbie was the one who got married :confused: To prevent idiots like me from assuming dumb things (you know what they say about assuming...) maybe this deserves another look-over and maybe a re-write.

Okay, I'm done. Again, a very heart-warming story, one I could relate to even though I've never been in the situation. I was easily lost in this womans head, easily cheered along with her to get the guy, and was very satisfied when she did. Good job!!

-Chicklet
 
I'll have to give this another try. I'm not at my sharpest right now, and I got just a couple of dozen paragraphs down and I was totally confused. Someone had gotten married and someone had snuck away and she had kissed someone a long time ago at the same spot and then we flashback to that kiss? Is that what's going on? Where am I?

I looked at this paragraph:
----------------------------------------
After she’d talked Mike’s ear off about her latest romantic disaster, he’d arrange a party here on the levee to get her out of the blues. Two days later, three girl friends invaded her room. Saying she’d been in bed all day, which was true, they’d forced her to get up and, ignoring her protests, made her put on some clothes and come with them.
------------------------------------------
The first sentence: shouldn't it be "he'd arranged" or did he always arrange parties after she talked his ear off?

Now: "Two days later..." Two days later than what? Her talking Mike's ear off? The party? And then the "Two days...three girl friends..." is a little number heavy.

Then: "Saying she'd been in bed all day...they'd forced her..." So it's these friends who are saying she'd in bed all day and not her right? Because the "Saying she'd been ..." makes it sound like she's the subject of the sentence, when they are really the subject.
Anyway you slice it, that final sentence is very awkward. I would combine the last two sentences and cut out some of the detail. The point is that her friends had to drag her out of the room. We can assume that if they "dragged" her that she protested and resisted.

We had some issues with a jerky start in Rumple's other story about the photograph, where we had trouble getting our feet under us, going from a daydream to a flashback to real time to another flashback, and I think the same thing is happeneing here.

Here also we have the added confusion of a plethora of character names. As I say, I'm a little slow here right now, but I had to read that a couple times to find out who was doing what.

To see the same kind of weakness show up in two stories indicates some sort of pervasive problem. I think Rumple's got to find another way of conveying backstory besides the flashback, or at least besides the flashback that comes before the story itself has started.

I'll come back and give it another try. For now that's what I see.

---dr.M.
 
Chicklet,

You give good critique. :) For what it's worth, I'll go over some of your points. RF

--

The first sentence sort of got to me because it didn't seem natural.

“What has gotten into you, girl?”

I hardly ever use the word "has" - I would probably say "What's" - so it seemed unnatural to me, personally, to see the word there. I don't know if you speak the same way as I do, but it's a personal preference stated there. Just so you know = ) Nothing really wrong, just a pet peeve.

RF: As a general rule, you're right. For instance, few people ever say, "It is time to go." In this case, I was trying, w/o much success, to show that she was talking slowly, chastising herself.

--

Exactly what TheEarl said about the tense...Had, Had, then...no Had. It just read a little awkward is all.

"this spot being where Mike had kissed her last spring—okay, make that where she’d kissed him. But he returned the kiss, thank God."

RF: Look, the thing is, you and TheEarl are right. Just let's keep it between you and me, okay? Don't let him know I said so or he might be even harder to put up with. But seriously folks, what I'll probably do is drop that first "had" and turn "she'd" into "she".

--

I'm being nitpicky again but this should be "arranged" right? Unless it happened more than one time, which I'm not sure about. Being unclear is bad in this case, I think...

RF: You're right. It only happened once. You got good eyes, kid.

--

Here I actually don't know if it's a rule or just something I see more often, but I usually see "girlfriends" or such...two words instead of one made it read awkward...but again, this is just me. I'm a freak, you know, and while I don't know if I'm actually being helpful all I can really do at all is point out what reads awkward to me = )

RF: IMHO, "girlfriends" carries a romantic overtone while "girl friends" has more of a female buddies feel. Maybe someone will get ambitious and check a style manual on the issue.

--

Again personal hair bristle...the parallel sentences at the end of these two paragraphs read oddly for me. It might be because I frowned a little at the words "Kissing her best friend" in the first one, and then when it was doubled it made my brow wrinkle again. It might be that I just didn't like the phrase. But, maybe it's something more... Instead of ending both sentences the same way, maybe you could change it slightly. (if you're taking me seriously, that is <wink>) Maybe instead of saying "Began kissing his best friend" you could say "Began kissing his best friend back," something to draw the attention towards his reacting to her kiss, rather than as if he was starting all over again.

RF: Child, I always take you very seriously-but this time I'm not taking your suggestion. Best I can tell, it's just a matter of taste. Mine's usually not that good but I'm sticking with it on this one..

--

I thought that Debbie was the one who got married...stupid me? or not? after reaching the end of the story, which I thought was going to end sad since I went through the whole thing thinking Debbie had married Harvey, I went back and re-read and re-read this paragraph and it still felt to me like Debbie was the one who got married :confused: To prevent idiots like me from assuming dumb things (you know what they say about assuming...) maybe this deserves another look-over and maybe a re-write.

RF: I take your point, although so far you're the only one who's mentioned this being confusing. But I'm going to give it a good look-see. Thanks.

--

Okay, I'm done. Again, a very heart-warming story, one I could relate to even though I've never been in the situation. I was easily lost in this womans head, easily cheered along with her to get the guy, and was very satisfied when she did. Good job!!

RF: Many thanks for your time and suggestions and especially for the warm fuzzies.
 
My approach to doing a review is to intentionally not read the earlier posts (except of course, the introductory post) so as to not be influenced by other people's viewpoints. Afterwards I go ahead and read them to see how dense I really was in my viewpoint.

Things I liked:
  • You get us at the scene quickly in terms of where and when
  • The story is complete within a short time and you still show a try with fail attempt through the flashback - so we have a beginning where you set the stage, a flashback try and fail, try and fail, current time to try once more, and resolution, she wins (gal gets guy)
  • you do keep the difference in season apparent and teach the reader about how the Old Man has drastically different levels at different times of year by showing and telling - only problem here is, why wouldn't Debbie also know about that - minor, anyone not having lived near the river would not know (I only know is because my wife grew up on its banks and she took the pains to educate me when the backwater was up)

Things I would have done differently:
  • Your heroine seems to be hormonally out of control and any rational man would run for the nearest exist as fast as he could. So the transition from irrational self arguing in her head, to rational planning and quiet triumph is surprising.
  • I know it's in the south and I know everyone is supposed to drive trucks, but: "Propping her head against the tree truck" made me think of a truck up on blocks, it's rooted there and ain't goin nowhere. (trunk?)
  • Had to do a double take with "They're in love, remember? If one of 'em had falling in," I read fast but have really good reader brakes. My mind asked the question "falling-out" or "fallen-in"? before I read the rest of the sentence which declared the winner: "the other would be raising all kinds of hell."
  • I think I would have made the original trysting spot a little closer than it seems when you say: "The hallowed ground... is upstream from here... ," he said, twisting around and pointing north. "You've gotta look back from where dat 'Old Man River' is rolling along now. See that big pile of brush and logs at the foot of those skinny willows? It was just above the shore back then and made a perfect nighttime hideout."
    To combine that with Debbie opening her blouse and then: "Nodding toward the spot where they first kissed, she said, "Let's go over there and pick-up where we left off." It seems a little out of kilter, she's going to have to button-up and apparently they have a bit of a hike to get to the old spot, too much time for feelings, reflections, hesitations, etc. before consummating the new relationship.
I know these are really minor points, but they ring the bell on slipping the reader out of that suspension of disbelief and remind us that it is a story, not really happening.

-FF (hopefully you'll think kindly of me as a smartass city boy and not a dumbass left coaster, or I don't know what I am now, in the Carolinas)
 
-FF (hopefully you'll think kindly of me as a smartass city boy and not a dumbass left coaster, or I don't know what I am now, in the Carolinas)
Stress not, ffreak. I just consider the source. :)

Thanks for taking the time to give me your left-coast, city-slicker thoughts. I like the way you break out your comments. Makes it easy for even a single digit IQ writer like me to follow them.

Rumple Foreskin
 
Put your glasses back on next time you read the test results. I was pretty sure yours had three digits.

-FF (IQ, UQ, we all queue for IQ - hmm... somehow the I keeps missing the Q - hey I'm not sterile, just rejected)
ps. too many emoticons in the morning can lead to blindness.
pps. or as the boy said to his father upon the advise that playing with oneself could lead to blindness, "Dad, I'm over here."
 
Re: bump!

champagne1982 said:
Thanks champagne,

You're good people. I don't care what ffreak keeps saying about you. :D

The story's doing so-so in voting, about 4.58 with no feedback or comments. But some AH folks say they were able to finish it without the need for stong drink or Dramanine so I rate it a qualified success. :)

Rumple Foreskin :cool:
 
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The Earl said, in ages past,

//You've got a weird tense going on in the flashback. You start off in a present perfect 'she had started...' and then switch to a perfect of 'she started.' Present perfect is the true flashback tense and then you switch to a storytelling tense. It feels like you were going to flashback and then decided to make it the subject of the story.//

I see a couple instances of that, in the paras below.

But first: "she had started" is NOT the 'present perfect'. It's past perfect. I don't know if it's 'flashback tense'; a flashback could be in any of several tenses, including present. (Neither is 'she started' a 'perfect' tense; it's simple past.)

The point is, a series of sentences with 'had' and past perfect start to sound clumsy AND the time frame is clearly set. So the ear says, "drop the 'had'" It works just fine. There may be a problem emerging from the flashback, if the remaining story is past, but that can be handled.

She'd been gazing** unseeing at a tanker heading slowly downstream. Now she had to squeeze her eyelids shut to keep from crying. She felt* angry and weepy, and incredibly stupid for not knowing why. Propping her head against the tree truck, she tried to come up with an answer. [...]

After she'd talked** Mike's ear off about her latest romantic disaster, he'd put together a party here on the levee to get her out of the blues. This afternoon, three girl friends invaded* her room. Saying she'd been in bed all day, which was true, they forced her to get up and, ignoring her protests, made her put on some clothes and come with them.
 
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I've always read that if you MUST use flashbacks, and I'm a frequent abuser, it's best to get through with the transitions quickly and then treat the flashback in the usual story telling manner.

Rumple Foreskin :cool:
 
IMO, they can be marked by typography, like italics, and/or tense change. Even present. Also, person change.

Tom went up the stairs towards the room in which he'd been born; it was there on the left of the hall. Images flooded his mind, one scene took over his thoughts:

//I'm standing at the top of the stairs which look very steep, and I don't stand much taller than the railing. Downstairs Mom is shouting at Dad, 'How could you have gone to the track with your paycheck!.'//
 
This story sets a nice mood and scene, and the two main characters had good chemistry together. That's important in a love story. I wasn't sure about when the story was set until they mentioned 1968, which was a little way in; I don't know if this is a problem, though. Also, a little more descriotion of the characters physically would have been nice early on. What were they wearing? How did they like what the other was wearing, etc.?

My only major suggestion is to mix action with dialogue a little more. While the two were talking, it was hard to picture them doing so, since all we had was the talking. Could the breeze move her hair or a sound from the tanker in the canal come to them? That sort of thing, judiciously applied, can add real strength to a scene. I had no real problem with the flashback.

Nicely done, though. I'm glad I had a chance to read this.
 
Nice story.

What I didn't like was some of the dialogue seemed unnatural to me. Though I don't think I like this guy! She says his favorite saying is, "Bullshit, not thy own self." I suddenly felt like banging his head with a video cassette of Gone with the Wind. Also to me she didn't seem like a person that would smoke weed, I would of left that out or mention something like that she breathed in the pot being smoked by her friends. I liked that he is able to pick exactly the place they had kissed before even if it was submerged, that really shows that it was an important moment for him. The ending left me hanging a bit but I didn' t mind since I knew it was a romantic story and having him fuck her like a dog in heat might not seem very romantic.

I found it kind of ironic that the last thing she says is "Don't you are dare stop," since I just put this line is in the story I am working on. I am going to have to delete it now since it will look like I ripped you off. That line does work well for your story and since you did not want to pursue the direction of "fucks her brains out" then its a perfect fit for the ending.

Of course this is only my opinion and I certainly do not qualify as an expert so you can ignore anything I have said.
 
Well this is the first romantic story I've read, so bear with me. I just got a bit confused, it seemed for lack of a better word over detailed. I thought the dialogue was well writen though. Also it seemed like we where building up slowly all thoughout the story, then bam it ends. I don't know, this is not the best review, but I tried.
 
Greetings,

Many thanks for all the recent crits. One of the fun things about doing these is discovering how two people can read the same thing and get different impressions--and both can be right.

For instance, Karen thought the story might need a little more description but had no problem with the ending. Meanwhile, Lord Naraku thought it might be a tad over detailed and the ending left him hanging. Considering who the writer is, odds are you're both right.

Karen, thanks for your input about action in the dialogue. That's always such a subjective area. You either use too much action and it drags, or too little and some readers get confused. It's hard to please everyone. But in light of Slick's comments on the dialogue, I'll look back over it and keep your suggestion in mind.

Slick, I'm not being defensive, but folks tell me dialogue is what I do least bad. These are southern college kids in 1968 who have been life-long friends. Maybe that "sound" was what bothered you. On the other hand, maybe the dialogue doesn't work for most other readers. If you can give a few examples it might help me figure this out.

You're right that she's not a doper and you'll notice she just tried it, then went back to beer. There was a lot of experimentation in the late '60's and she was trying to be a good sport. As for that line, "Don't you dare stop," there's no copyright, use it if it'll help your story.

If any of you have more questions, comments or some such, feel free to post 'em here or send me a PM.

A last note about the ending. The current version seemed to annoy guys more than gals. But to satisfy "The Earl" and others who complained, I wrote a companion version to this story called "Loving on the Levee" which I placed in "First Time." If you're interested in taking a look, it's at: Loving on the Levee

Rumple Foreskin :cool:
 
I sent you another PM after reading your story for a second time. If you thought the previous comments I sent you were "fascinating" just wait untill you read about what I interpreted about Debbie's character ;)
 
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