Discussion: Rumple Foreskin, 2-06-05; SDC main queue

Rumple Foreskin

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Discussion: Rumple Foreskin, 2-06-05

Greetings.

At least a thousand thanks to everyone who helped turn ANN'S STORY into something almost resembling, but not quite, an acceptable Lit story. The version you see now (3/3/5) reflects changes I've made in reponse to suggestions from the SDC.

One change sharp-eyed folks may notice is the name. I finally decided to submit the story as Non-Consent, primarily because I'd never submitted a story in that category. The old title, Ann's Story, seemed a little prosaic for that category. So I re-christened it, SCHOLARSHIP SEX.

In an attempt to show more coercion, I added this sentence: "You mean having to ball Mr. Perkins? If you don't count not being able to sleep the night before, then feeling sick that morning and dirty afterwards; no, not really.

and this one: "Anyway, he'd fool around for ages, you know, doing the big C and all that shit, before getting down to the dirty deed. I'd close my eyes and try to shut my mind off, or pretend I was in a porno flick. Some days it almost worked.

Other tweaks include changing the much maligned "Pervis" to "Perkins."

Anyone reading this revised edition is encouraged to add their thoughts to those already posted. I can use all the help the SDC can provide.

Rumple

--

SCHOLARSHIP SEX
by Rumple Foreskin


"It's just not fair."

From the tone of her friend's voice, Cindy Davis knew Ann was only half-joking. "What's not fair?" They were in Cindy's cramped, one-person dorm room, preparing tuna fish au gratin on rye toast for supper.

"It's not fair that you actually met a good-looking single guy under ninety on that geriatric unit disguised as an ophthalmology ward." Ann was in the midst of opening a large can of tuna fish. "And while you're spending the summer of ‘70 making out with this ‘Nam vet, I'm stuck on the urology ward with a bunch of old farts who can't pee, and jive doctors who keep coming on to me."

Cindy carefully placed slices of rye bread in the combination toaster/broiler that was a fixture of her room. She was beginning to wish she hadn’t told Ann about that afternoon’s kiss. "Now don’t exaggerate. We haven't been making out. Ray kissed me, once. That’s all.”

"Of course you haven't been.” There was blatant skepticism in Ann’s voice. "After all, you’re engaged to Johnny De-Wop-de-do. And we all know making out with a patient would be incredibly unprofessional, especially for a lowly Bellevue nursing student. Just tell me this, will you go back to see him?"

"His name is DeAngelo,” said Cindy, referring to her long-time boyfriend and fiancé. “And talk about lowly. We’re just summer-relief Nurse Techs, remember? Maybe you get to set your own schedule, but I sure don’t. So if I'm assigned to his room, I’ll go back."

"And you're always assigned to his room, right?"

"Well, okay, I usually am.” Cindy pulled out the toast and began to spread on mayonnaise.

"Which means you'll be going back. And when you do go back, you two will end up kissing again.”

Cindy tried to ignore the tiny quiver in her stomach. The problem was, her friend might be right. But she didn’t want to consider Ann's logic. It was time to change the subject. Besides, she was curious. Ann Williams was short and cute with creamy milk-chocolate skin and a neatly trimmed afro. Guys were always coming on to her. "What's wrong with those doctors? Are they married or creeps or what?"

"Oh, they're no creepier than most doctors," said Ann, as she piled tuna fish on two pieces of rye toast. "And I think one’s single. The problem is, they're all white. And you know how I feel about dating white guys."

After she placed cheese slices on top of the tuna, Cindy shoved the concoction back in the toaster oven and then gave her friend a concerned look. "You've mentioned that before, about not dating white guys, but you've never said why. I mean it's none of my business. It’s just that Robin, Sue, and I are white, and we're your friends, aren't we?"

"True, but the last time I checked, I wasn’t dating any of you. Although with the luck I've been having with dudes lately, you're beginning to look better and better, child." Ann gave Cindy a lascivious grin.

"Get away from me, you deviant.” Cindy waved a mayonnaise covered dinner knife in Ann's direction. "My mama warned me about girls like you."

The toaster went off, interrupting their teasing. The latest rendition of the famous “Tuna Fish Au Gratin on Rye Toast a la Bellevue School of Nursing” was extracted and placed on plastic plates. They opened cans of Diet-Rite soda, then sat on the bed to watch a "Star Trek" rerun on Cindy’s small black and white TV.

It was one of their favorite episodes, but Cindy sensed her friend’s mind was elsewhere. Afterward, they cleaned-up. While Cindy put the plates away, Ann looked into the tiny refrigerator. "Where'd you hide that wine I left in here?"

"It's on the bottom shelf, in the back, behind the bread.”

She pulled out a half-empty bottle of apple wine, filled two tumblers requisitioned from the school cafeteria, and sat by the desk in the room’s only chair. Waving grandly, she said, "Go ahead and make yourself comfortable child, 'cause I've got a story to tell."

As instructed, Cindy sat on her narrow bed and scooted back while trying not to spill any of the wine. She shoved a pillow behind her back and leaned against the green plaster wall to wait for Ann's story.

"You asked why I won't fool around with white boys. Well, I'm about to spell it out for you, sordid details and all."

Ann took a long sip of wine and began. "When I was a senior in high school, I needed an A in honors English, if I wanted to snag a college scholarship. No A, no scholarship. No scholarship, no college. It was that simple. I mean my folks are great, although my mother can drive me just as crazy as yours does you." Both girls laughed in mutual sympathy and understanding.

After another sip of wine, Ann continued. "It's not like my folks don't love me and work hard. Dad’s a delivery driver and moonlights as a security guard while Mom's a part-time receptionist. The problem is, I'm the oldest of five kids. So if I wanted to get into nursing school, I had to land a scholarship.

"Well, that was the situation when Mr. Perkins came into my life. He was a skinny white guy and the only one at my school who taught the honors English Lit. course I absolutely, positively, had to ace. It didn't take long to figure out I was in trouble. I mean, I'm no brain, but I’ve always done okay if I bust my butt. But no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't pull an A in English.

Ann got up and refilled her glass. “You know how it is. English, especially English Lit, is so damn subjective. I really tried, I even told Perkins about why I needed to pull an A. But at the end of the first term, he gave me a damn C+."

Cindy expressed her sympathy, but passed on the offer of more wine.

"So I arranged to have a conference with him right after school,” said Ann, as she sat down. “I played it straight and tried to explain my problem. But when I finished, he just looked at me, and suggested that I might benefit from some personal tutoring at his place, for about four hours every Saturday, either morning or afternoon. He said that if I did what he suggested at our sessions, he was sure I'd have an A at the end of the year."

"Are you telling me what I think you're telling me?” There was a note of incredulity in Cindy’s voice.

"Right on, child. If I wanted to make an A under the good Mr. Perkins, I had to spend every Saturday, for the rest of the damn school year, under Mr. Perkins."

There was a strained silence until Cindy asked, "So what did you do? I mean, did you report him or, or what?"

"Well, I'm here talking to you in the quaint old dorm of the world famous Bellevue School of Nursing. So what do you think? I did the ‘or what’ of course."

Cindy couldn’t think of anything to say and just shook her head in sympathy as Ann continued. "However, I should point out in defense of my virtue that I did manage to negotiate my visits down to only once every other week. I mean, I might be cheap and go down for grades, but I'm not easy.”

After another silence, Cindy asked, "Was it terrible?"

"You mean having to ball Mr. Perkins? If you don't count not being able to sleep the night before, then feeling sick that morning and dirty afterwards; no, not really. He was a single white dude and a teacher, but other than that, not really a weirdo. I never asked, but I guess he was somewhere in his mid-thirties and he wasn’t really that bad looking, either, for a white guy. Have I mentioned that he was white?"

”Oh, yes.”

"Thought I had. Well, there was a story going around school that his wife had wised-up and left him the summer before. I guess by the time I came along, he was horny enough to risk doing it with one of his students."

Ann finished her second glass of wine. "It wasn't like I was some sort of pure virgin. I had already done the dirty deed with a couple of dudes from school. Both were okay, at first. But then they got real possessive. You know the type. So I dropped them.”

Cindy didn’t know the type. Johnny was the only person she’d gone out with for the last four years. But she nodded.

"To tell you the truth, actually doing it with Perkins wasn't that bad. Like I said, he was no weirdo or anything. In fact, he taught me a thing or two, especially about oral sex."

Ann grinned at a startled look on Cindy's face. "That's right, child, he even performed the big "C" on me. That's cunnilingus not cancer, in case you haven't figured it out.

"What really bugged me about making it with Perkins, was that I ‘had’ to make it with Perkins. What I mean is, being forced to putout for that damn A just about freaked me. If he’d come on to me like any other guy, I might have been interested. Older guys aren't really my thing, you understand. But like I said, he wasn't that bad looking and doing it with a teacher might have been a trip."

"How did you explain to your parents, I mean about being away all those Saturdays?"

"Told 'em I had to go to the library to bone up for English. What else? That way it was only half a lie."

Ann got up, finished off the bottle of apple wine, stuffed it under some papers in the overflowing wastepaper basket, and sat back down. "Anyway, every other Saturday, I'd get up early, make myself pretty, then head over to the Perkins Passion Pad, home of Perkins the Pervert.

"He'd let me in, take my coat, and offer me some coffee. The guy was a fiend for coffee. There'd always be somebody like B. B. King or Aretha Franklin on the stereo and we'd talk for a few minutes before he'd suggest we adjourn to the bedroom. I swear, that's what he'd say almost every time, ‘Why don't we adjourn to the bedroom?’

"There was a big bed, at least queen-size, in his bedroom. He'd give me a big kiss and start taking off my clothes. When he had me stripped buck-naked, I'd get under the sheets, satin of course, while he undressed.

"He was a funny looking guy with his clothes off. Of course, most guys are when you come to think of it. Still, Perkins looked funnier than most. He had almost no body hair, real white skin, knobby knees, and a little beer-belly."

Cindy grimaced. “I think I get the picture.”

"Anyway, he'd fool around for ages, you know, doing the big C and all that shit, before getting down to the dirty deed. I'd close my eyes and try to shut my mind off, or pretend I was in some porno flick. Some days it almost worked.

"Afterward, he'd pull out some grass and we'd lay there in bed and blow a joint or two. That was the best part of the whole day, laying there talking and smoking dope. He was a pretty smart dude, for a teacher.”

She sniggered at her own joke, then continued. "He'd always get around to screwing again, of course. Thanks to the weed, most of the time it wasn't as bad. On days when he was super horny, there'd even be a third session. That’s when he'd start showing me some really off-the-wall shit, right out of the Kama Sutra."

Ann emptied her glass in one gulp and gave Cindy a silly smile. "Well, to make a long, boring story a short, boring story, I'll skip anymore gruesome details about our sinful Saturdays. However, before I go tuck myself into my lonely little bed, I want to tell you about my last Saturday with Perkins.”

Cindy sat down her empty glass, repositioned herself on the bed, and braced for the finale.

“What I decided to do was embarrass him in front of the entire school. On our last Saturday together, I brought over a little bottle of cognac as a present and made sure there was a double slug of it in every cup of coffee he drank. Then I proceeded to lay some serious loving on that sorry-assed honky. It was the only time I took the lead, and I really got him going, if I do say so myself.” A sarcastic smile made a brief appearance, then vanished.

"Well, in the middle of it all, just when he was about to go outta his gourd, I gave him a hickey to end all hickeys and made sure to put it way up high on his neck. It was May and already pretty hot, but I knew he'd have to wear a turtleneck to school on Monday to cover it up.”

Ann’s laugh was humorless. "Sure enough, on Monday he shows up in a turtle neck, even though our school wasn't air conditioned. Just before my last class with him ended, I stood up and said that without his help, I'd never have made an A and gotten my scholarship and that I wanted to come up and show my appreciation.

"You could tell he was getting nervous and he started babbling about how that wasn't necessary, but I kept insisting and finally he said okay.

“Let me tell you, child, I had on the shortest dress I owned. Most of the time, it would have gotten me kicked out of school. But I was a senior and it was the last day of classes so what could they do to me?"

Ann flashed an ear-to-ear grin. "So I sashayed my young ass up to his desk, walking real slow and sexy. By the time I got there, I had everyone's attention. Then I leaned over and planted a big kiss on his cheek while I pulled down his collar.

"Everyone immediately saw the hickey. Hell, there was no way they could have missed it, I made sure of that. It was big and dark and seemed to cover about half his scrawny white neck. The whole class broke up. I just acted cool, like I hadn't noticed a thing, and kept holding down the collar while he tried to push it back up without looking too obvious.”

Both Ann and Cindy giggled. "All that went down during first period. By the end of second period, the whole school knew what had happened. They let us out after lunch, but by then, I was a school legend. Who knows, if I had pulled that stunt earlier in the year, I might have been homecoming queen.

"Anyway, to conclude this sordid tale, I got my A and my scholarship and admission into this fine bastion of higher education. As for Mr. Perkins, I know for a fact he quit or got fired later that summer. I've heard he's out of teaching, back with his old lady, and selling insurance somewhere upstate."

After a short struggle, Ann stood up and walked unsteadily to the door. She paused, and turned to face her audience of one. "So that's why, dear Cindy, I don't do it with white guys. Mr. Perkins turned me off the breed."

Taking a deep breath, she clenched her fists and stared at the floor. Her body began to tremble and a torrent of bitterness burst forth. "That sorry bastard made me his whore, his damn slave. I hate me for not saying no. But I hate him even more for making me do it.” Tears of rage broke through her protective wall of cocky, street-wise cynicism.

The room fell silent after the outburst. Ann’s trembling body slumped back against the door as she struggled to regain her normal, sassy demeanor. “I suppose it might be possible to meet a white guy who doesn’t remind me of Perkins. I mean, for a redneck, this Ray character you made out with today seems okay. But child, with so many fantastic black dudes out there, why bother?”

Ann tried to grin even as she wiped at her tears. Cindy was already off the bed and walking over to her friend. "I don't know about you, but I need a hug.” For a few moments they embraced, one sharing her pain, the other her sympathy.

"Look, do me a favor," said Ann, as she released Cindy and reached for the doorknob. “Before you get into any real heavy breathing with old Ray, make sure he doesn’t want to be an English teacher.” They both started giggling.

“I would,” said Cindy, “but there’s not going to be any heavy breathing between us.”

“Bet a Diet-Rite there will be. And when it starts, you better give me all the juicy details.” With her facade back in place, Ann winked, and made her exit.
 
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A nice little tale that kept my interest. I could see sexing it up a bit (in a humorous way). I do like the line about every other week. You conveyed well the outward bravado and inward anguish of such a choice for a young girl (even if she has been around the block a couple times). You could take even more account of the fact that the average 17 year old is not really into prostitution, for a grade, no less.

I do think Ann is shown enjoying or learning a bit too much, e.g.,

we'd even do it a third time. That's when he'd start showing me some really off the wall shit, right out of the Kama Sutra."

Although Ann says 'off the wall', she seems too much the apt learner. I would have had it be--more clearly-- something a) she didn't quite understand, and b) did not enjoy at the time.

(Upon re reading your questions, I think your raising the 'non consent' issue shows the same reservation. To put it bluntly, either 1) she does what she has to (which is no turn on) or
2) she gets a bit of a lark--undertaken(begun) with a bit of reluctance--and some 'education' in exchange for a good grade, with the guy who is not a half-bad lay. In the first case, his sexual aptitude, if present, does NOT present a plus to the girl. In the first case, the extended nature of the thing is also a minus, whereas in the story it's something that seems hardly to affect her (for, why should it?).***

I could see early on adding a scene where Ann recounts a date or relationship gone bad. IOW postpone the revelation a bit, for drama. I just saw the movie "Door in the Floor" and the revelation took almost the entire movie to come out

Dialogue, characters, setting all fine, up to your usual standard.

Anyway, most of the above is piddling stuff you've probably thought of. Perhaps consciously you avoided something truly in the ball park of non consent. Old sweety.
---
PS 1:
Btw, "Mr Pervis", the name is a bit much, though 'Mr. Perv' might be a good student nickname for him. Hell, why not call him Mr. Reddy Forrit.

***PS 2. Silly me. Above I'm talking 'true' non consent. As a piece of Literotica nonConsent, it's definitely in the ball park: Though expressing initial reluctance to ball five stevedores, after a bit of muscle, the woman gets wet like crazy, so the story goes, and ends in screaming orgasms calling out 'once again, boys!'

PS 3. Of course there is nothing impossible about being pressured a bit and then liking something. But that would require laying a groundwork: her liking the teacher; his not making it outright extortion, etc. The Lit 'non consent' so-called is without plausibility since the reader is not given a basis for the woman's drastic change of heart. Only the force and brutality itself is alleged to caused the change toward sexual voraciousness.
 
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Pure,

Thanks for the read and the insights. I was trying to emphasize that Ann's hositility came not from the act, but the coercion. That might be too fine a distinction for me to handle in a short story, if at all.
"What really bugged me about making it with Pervis, was that I ‘had’ to make it with Pervis. What I mean is, the thought that I was being forced to put out for that damn A just about freaked me. I mean, if he’d come on to me like any other guy, I might have been interested. Older guys aren't really my thing, you understand. But like I said, he wasn't that bad looking and doing it with a teacher might have been a trip."
I thought about ramping-up the sex content by having Ann give more details, perhaps recount a particular episode, but that didn't feel right. This may reflect my coming-of-age during the '60's and 70's, but most RL discussions of sex don't include a lot of up-close-and-personal details. It would be no problem to add more, of course, but I want the story to have an authentic feel.

Your idea about slipping in something having to do with sex earlier in the story might be a way around that problem--assuming it really exists.

Thanks again for helping me see the story from different perspectives.

Rumple Foreskin :cool:
 
I think the issue of coercion is important. It should be sufficient to account for a life change-- not dating white guys.

It is fuzzy coercion is I'm half willing to begin with: If Halle Berry calls me and says, because my number was drawn from the phone directory, I *must* take her out or lose a month's paycheck.

It is diminishing coercion if I get to like the thing: In a Korean prison, I'm forced to live on fermented cabbage, which I initially hate, but grow to like; since leaving, I now make it at home.

Both of these seem to obtain, in my impression of the story.

Particularly, the first is seen in the key sentences of Ann's statement:

"I mean, if he'd come on to me like any other guy, I might have been interested. Older guys aren't really my thing, you understand. But like I said, he wasn't that bad looking and doing it with a teacher might have been a trip."

cf
"But just for the odd experience, I might have done it, if I'd dared myself to."
 
I think I'm following you. To better sell the reader on the after-effects of the coercion, more is needed about her emotions at the time it occurs. The trick would be doing that while not having her appear or at least admit to being vulnerble. That facade doesn't collapse until the end of the story. Perhaps something like having her joke about throwing up before or after the "tutoring" sessions.

Thanks, Pure. I will cogitate.

Rumple Foreskin :cool:
 
Rumple,

I enjoyed the scene. I thought the characters well done for a work of this length. The dialogue was first rate, as was the technical quality. That said, the piece didn't grab me. I never felt any real tension, more like mild curiosity.

What category is this? I see the quandary, but for me it had zero "sizzle." My vote goes for non-erotic. Non-erotic can still be explicit, right?

I don’t have a big problem with Ann discovering the coercion was not as bad as she expected but still shunning white guys simply to avoid the memory. Having enjoyed some aspects of the experience could make her feel more guilty, and disgusted, than if she had loathed every moment. Plus, how much of Ann's "it wasn't that bad" assertion is fact and how much is bravado? In short, I have little problem believing Ann's character.

Some minor nits:

I could have done without the surnames.

What about a little less description early, let the reader figure out what meal it is the girls are making, for instance? I also don't think the reader needs to be told Ann is black.

I cannot recall watching any Star Trek episode without a male present.

Mr. Pervis is a corny name.

If there's any place that felt a bit false for me, it was that Ann regains her normal demeanor so quickly.

The line I found most touching was this one from Cindy:
"I don't know about you, but I need a hug.”
This line not only says so much about true friends, but says it in just the right way. Did you consider weaving that theme into the title in some manner?

Thanks for sharing your refreshingly different story. Although it didn't have me on the edge of my seat, I liked the characters and would have continued reading had you written more about them.

Take Care,
Penny
 
Hi Rumple,

Standard disclaimer: I have no idea what I'm talking about, and I only ever imagine I know what I'm doing.

My feedback is kind of vague, but maybe you can get some use out of it. What I mean is, there are things which slightly distracted me or elements which led me off in another direction from where things are going. It maybe that I was reading initially with too critical a focus... but here are some thoughts:

1. I think the first thing that threw me off track was that the discussion (and story) started about one girl kissing somebody. Some detail was then provided about that guy that she kissed and so my mind slipped into that's what the story is about. This contributed to a part of my mind thinking "when are we getting back to the vet and what was he doing in that ward?" for the remainder of the story.

2. I got a little confused on who was who as the race discussion came into it and I had to back track (see who was who). I don't know what I'm saying here, maybe if that was mentioned earlier it would have been easier for me to follow.

3. What about the fiance? Again, you gave a little detail and it made me think it was about the first girl.

4. I agree with Penelope's comment about the name "Pervis". It made me think this is going to be a light hearted humorous story.

5. Penelope's comment about girls only watching Star Trek with guys is depressing... sorry, got distracted.

6. The story of Pervis and Ann was ambiguous:

Some times it sounded like she enjoyed--make that "may have got off" during the encounters-- and other times it wasn't that. There are elements in your descriptions that make it into major emotional trauma:

"Her body began to tremble and a torrent of bitterness burst forth"

"Ann’s trembling body slumped back against the door"

That stuff is in the present. In the past there isn't much indicating that at the time. In fact there is description that leads one to believe it wasn't all that bad.

If the past wasn't that big a deal or was sublimated at the time, and it became traumatic only later, then I think more transition is needed at the end of or after telling the tale. I mean maybe more drawn out/explained/described. Or more post-Pervis history.

If it was traumatic at the time, then more indication of that at the time. (Like if she wasn't sexually excited how did she make do for certain sexual acts?)

Also: If she was OK with white guys before the encounter and not after, I think I needed more on what about it put her off of white guys and not just guys. Like maybe Pervis was obsessed with her race, maybe Dom about her racially.

Maybe there's some bit of help there, or maybe you'll reassure me that you've met women that watch star trek alone. Or in groups. Or in lesbian orgies...

OC
 
First of all, I’ve got to give you a lot of credit for being able to pulloff that story-within-a-story thing, which is something that never seems to work for me. It takes really skillful use of dialogue to make that work, and I think it works great here.

I was especially impressed with the pacing during the recounting of Ann’s story, the way you used their wine-drinking and other stuff to pace the story. I thought it worked very, very well.

I had some trouble in deciding what this story was really about. It’s either about how Ann gets her revenge on Pervis, or it’s about the scars that her affair with him left on her, but I don’t know if it can be about both. The hickey incident is funny and clever, but then showing how scarred the whole episode’s left her leaves a funny taste in our mouths, like maybe we shouldn’t have laughed.

I wonder, in fact, if her outburst is warranted. I mean, I know she’s supposed to be a tough and cynical chick, so we don’t expect her to be weeping during her story, but there’s not much in her tale that sets us up for her outburst, and it caught me quite by surprise, really seeming to come from left field. From what she says about her Saturdays with Pervis, I got the impression that she actually rather enjoyed them, and that the hickey was more like a practical joke than a serious attempt to ruin him

There’s something I didn’t get about the hickey thing too. When she exposed his neck, wasn’t Ann pretty much admitting to the class that she was the one who gave Pervis the hickey? Wasn’t she trying to keep that secret? Why would she be the hero of the school for having had an affair with her professor?

Another thing I didn’t quite get was the deal between Cindy and her fiancee and the guy in the opthamology ward. I don’t understand why she had a fiancee, or why she was fooling around behind his back. That seemed to raise some issues that weren’t addressed.

One last thing, and it’s kind of picky on my part and maybe just a matter of personal taste, but when you start making jokes about “Tuna Fish Au Gratin on Rye Toast a la Bellevue School of Nursing” , it kinds of injects the author into the story and ruins the sense of objectivity.

But overall, I think this is a very well-told story. Very nicely done.

---dr.M.
 
Rumple,

Haven't read any of the other comments so forgive repetition.

First impression - it's a kind of morality tale writ small, nice, easy reading, prods away at the back of the mind, you know what she's doing is wrong but you don't want to stop her because, in a sense, it's only a blow job. But this is toward the end.

I struggle to get started in this story, the passage through to clearing after the meal. There is a very strident opening - "It's just not fair." - I'm looking for why, and though you tell, I come away with an impression of the girls making supper, Cindy's dilemma over patient v's fiancée, and no real sense that Ann 'needs' to spill the beans.

I struggled to achieve an idea of relationship between the two girls, and I feel bad about that because you went to some trouble to spell it out. Part of my difficulty in this respect is the way you establish location, career, working environment, etc in the first few paragraphs, for me there was too much information within the dialogue, it fractured the flow. For me, 'they were making supper' would have been enough; I'm more interested in their relationship than what they are putting on their toast.

Ann's tale begins with little clear understanding (for me) of the bond between the two girls. A confession needs a confessor, and this is a confession. Cindy's unease at her own relationships distances her from being the confessor; she's not drawing Ann's words - is she simply 'voyeuristic'? Hardly, in fact she's pretty much devoid of emotional response, almost impassive. There are two lines that stand out to demonstrate why I have this feeling: in the passage where Ann makes comedy out of her dislike for 'white guys' Cindy replies, "Oh, yes." - why not a laugh or giggle, after all, Ann is being funny, some emotional indicator.

The other line, a little further down when Ann describes Mr Pervis's body,
"I think I get the picture," said Cindy - again delivered with no emotion, is she disgusted, interested?

I have similar feelings at the end of the piece. Ann's made the confession, skipped her way though, and finally penetrated the wall of her anger. At this point Cindy seems incapable of giving Ann the emotional support she needs, not true consolation - it's almost lip service. I'm left with the impression Cindy disapproves of Ann's blowing Pervis to get her grades, and you return to this troubling relationship of Cindy's, it intrigues (me) more, particularly as Ann vacillates in her confession between degrees of disgust and enjoyment.

As for category: I don't think it's strong enough for non-consent in its current form, the coercion is piqued by Ann's willingness to 'earn her grade'. You might consider Exhibitionism and Voyeurism, Ann is largely wanting to tell of her exploits, Cindy is largely wanting to hear of them, it will need some emotional undertow to establish their positions, but that may not be the story you want to write.

I have the notion that in the development and various incarnations of this story you have a firmer idea of the characters than is presented on the page.

Don't know if or how that helps - it's an interesting story, just don't think you've found the key to unlock it.
 
Penny, Doc, Op_Cit, Neon:

Many thanks for your time and input. It's exactly the sort of feedback I was looking for. I'll be re-reading all of them, working on the ideas, but here are a few initial thoughts.

This is a huge, oversimplifictaion, but it's interesting that the guys, including Pure, didn't think there was enough coercion while Penny thought there was. I'm not going to ramp-up the coercion much, but I'm probably going to add this little bit.

After another silence, Cindy asked, "Was it terrible?"

"You mean having to ball Mr. Pervis? If you don't count not being able to sleep the night before, then feeling sick that morning and dirty afterwards; no, not really.
--

The story is about friendship. When it opens, they are talking about what happened to Cindy. But when the conversation swiches to Ann's molestation by a white teacher, Cindy follows right along. At the end, Ann realizes what's happened. When she brings the original subject back up, it's her way of acknowledging what happened and thanking her friend.

--

Maybe it's just me or my skill level as a writer, but I swear, having one character tell another about a sexual incident is hard to make erotic. I'm open to suggestions.

--

I can't believe not one of you cold-eyed realists liked "Pevis" for the guy's name. Sulking, I wander away to consider the options.

--

And finally, on the burning issue of gals watching Star Trek when no guys are present. I know of at least two who did. The characters in the story, and the incident that happened to Ann, are based on RL. That doesn't mean their watching the show is a good device to use in this story. However, being so old I remember Star Trek when it was on network prime time, I'll stick to my version.

--

Thanks again to all of you for the feedback.

Rumple Foreskin :cool:
 
Rumple

I confess. I assumed the Star Trek insertion was based on RL, otherwise...

Pervis didn't bother me, I took at 'authors licence'.

I'm still concerned about the friendship issue, I don't 'feel' the friendship in the story, I don't feel it enough to allow Ann to enter the confessional, I still feel, on reflection, that one is displaying and one is watching. It's like that moment before you become conspirators, bonded by secrecy, passion is the key.
 
neonlyte said:
Rumple

I confess. I assumed the Star Trek insertion was based on RL, otherwise...

Pervis didn't bother me, I took at 'authors licence'.

I'm still concerned about the friendship issue, I don't 'feel' the friendship in the story, I don't feel it enough to allow Ann to enter the confessional, I still feel, on reflection, that one is displaying and one is watching. It's like that moment before you become conspirators, bonded by secrecy, passion is the key.
Thanks, Neon.

In NYC in 1970, Star Trek reruns came on around supper time. Both gals were hooked. In one version of the story, I had them talking about Uhura's legs.

I'm not sure what, if anything, I can do about the friendship issue, but you've given me something to cogitate on. Many thanks.

Rumple Foreskin :cool:
 
Regarding:
"Maybe it's just me or my skill level as a writer, but I swear, having one character tell another about a sexual incident is hard to make erotic. I'm open to suggestions."

In my opinion it's almost impossible to make a related story both erotic and realistic because of the issue earlier discussed: rarely do acquaintances, or even true friends, talk about a sexual encounter in the detail that is usually necessary to generate arousal. That said, I think women are much more likely to have such a conversation. Women discuss sexual experiences as a true information exchange. With men, is it not most often bragging?


How is the coercion in this story lacking in strength with regard to being worthy of the non-consent category? Is there a belief that for a story to qualify for non-consent that it ought to involve force? Although I thankfully cannot say, I imagine being coerced into a sexual liaison could be worse than being raped, at least after the fact. It's the difference between being the victim of a theft and having paid a bribe. Both leave the victim feeling angry- but which makes the victim angry with herself?



If just anyone had said this:

"... you don't want to stop her because, in a sense, it's only a blow job."

it would really have ruffled more than my feathers. I am curious what is meant by "...it's only a blowjob..." There would seem to be an implication here that somehow it is less offensive to coerce 'just' oral sex from an unwilling party? I have to assume, considering the integrity of the source, that I am misreading or somehow removing the phrase from its proper context. I would appreciate an explanation.

When Cindy says, "I think I get the picture," I believe she is clearly disgusted and is indicating that she doesn't want details. I don't think Cindy enjoys hearing anything about Ann's ordeal, but she's willing to listen because that's what friends do.

Did anyone else believe the hickey part of Ann's story? That part of her story didn't ring true to me, but I was willing to believe that Ann would say that it happened. I've similar doubts about the entire Kama Sutra / cunnilingus claims. I view it as one of the strengths of this story that Ann may be not telling the whole truth.

What's the point of the Star Trek line anyway? Is it just an extraneous detail? A period indicator? Or is it meant to tell us something about these two characters? The more I think about it, the more unusual it seems. Ok, my personal view of Star Tek may be shaded my brother idolizing Mr. Spock and thinking it was just too much fun to put the Vulcan mind grip on his little sisters. Even so, I think two women having favorite episodes of Star Trek is just a little too campy to be common- even in the days of but a handful of television channels. I'd like to know what their favorite episode is, and why. If it's worth putting in the story, is it not worth a line of two of dialogue discussing what they like?

What an interesting little story. I saw it as a serious piece and that's why I didn't care for a joke name like Pervis. As an exploration of friendship, I think it works better not being arousing.

Take Care,
Penny
 
Penny,

The "coercion" issue may, to a certain extent, be a male/female deal. My problem is that, depending on where published, on average half the readers will be guys. That's one reason I decided to add to Ann's dialogue the words in bold:
After another silence, Cindy asked, "Was it terrible?"

"You mean having to ball Mr. Pervis? If you don't count not being able to sleep the night before, then feeling sick that morning and dirty afterwards; no, not really.
--

As I mentioned to Neon:
In NYC in 1970, Star Trek reruns came on around supper time. Both gals were hooked. In one version of the story, I had them talking about Uhura's legs.
Without going to my source authority, "Cindy" is in another room, I believe their favorite was "The Trouble with Tribbles." The Enterprise is taken over by soft furry little beasties that make a soothing purring noise. The problem is they multiply geometrically and begin to overrun the place.

http://www.startrek.com/imageuploads/200306/tos-042-those-tribbles-are-get/320x240.jpg

Penny I really do appreciate your feedback. Not only has it been a lot of help, it's been an enjoyable process. Thanks.

Rumple Foreskin :cool:
 
Poussin,

You have no reason to worry. IMHO, you're a keeper, and I hope you continue contributing to the SDC.

For starters, all your points are well taken. I'll be going back over all of them, giving special attention to trying to soften Ann's initial image.

Now, hang in here with me; truth be told, Ann is a racist. BUT, this is 1970, the Black Power movement is swelling. That spirit being summed up in the words of James Brown, "Say it loud, I'm black and I'm proud," and those of Nina Simon, "To be young, gifted, and black, that's where it's at."

Interracial dating was becoming more acceptable among some groups. What follows is an over-simplification, but one group that did not find this acceptable, was black women. I won't get into a sociological analysis of the issue, but it did exist. Not only were they leery of white guys coming on to them, they often dished heavy grief on black guys who dated white girls. It's more than possible that even if Ann didn't have this experience, she would have still balked at dating white guys. The molestation however, sealed the deal.

Now, how do I communicate that in a short story? IMHO, there comes a time when the short story writer has to, in effect, ask the reader to take his word for things. I might be able to put Ann in a dashiki and say more about her afro, but I'm not sure that, or anything else, would be a quick fix.

Still, the important thing for me is you gave me some good stuff to gnaw on. Many thanks.

Rumple Foreskin :cool:
 
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After reading Poussin's comments, I 'm wondering whether race should even be a part of this story. I wonder if it doesn't confuse and obscure what went on between Pervis and Ann, because when you look at it, Pervis seems like the one person in the story for whom race wasn't an issue. Sex was the issue, and I think maybe the way Ann translates her sexual trauma into racial prejudice kind of confuses the dynamics of the story.

In other words, she's demeaned as a woman, but she understands what happened to her in terms of race, which kind of suggests to me that she really doesn't quite get what happened to her as a woman.

I know that, as a matter of story telling, you have to give Ann some sort of aversion to the kind of person who did what Pervis did to her. Her aversion is what provides the occasion for her story. But I wonder whether age might not have worked just as well. Or married men.

As far as bringing heat, I think it could be done, but you'd have to bring emotion into Ann's story. She'd have to enjoy some aspect of it, otherwise she's just describing a rape and there's no such thing as an erotic rape.

---dr.M.
 
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Apologies for posting again. I received a PM from Penny overnight asking me to defend or explain my 'blow job' comment. I've been reading through critiques for the first time, and have become aware that my views of this story are somewhat different from other contributors.

I'm struck by the number of replies that take up the cross-racial condition. It is a strand of the story that clearly reinforces the coercion at a level beyond that immediately apparant to me and served to a degree to skew my reading of the story. It is a cultural and personal issue, you must take me at face value and accept I am barely moved by the cross racial aspect of the story, if Pervis had been a garlic eater causing Ann not to date guys who ate garlic, I'd have had much the same reaction.

I missed a whole cultural spectrum in this story that would have exaggerated my reading of the coercion possibly resulting in a different understanding of the writers intent. The emotion I've been looking for in the story is a racial play that skips by me.

Ignoring the race issue, I'll stand by my comments. I can see why the coercion is more clearly drawn for readers for whom cross-racial sex raises cultural issues, it would be wrong for me to attempt to critique from that perspective.

My apologies if my comment offended, it was wrapped in the perception of coercion, if you miss the cross-racial play, you miss the emotional undercurrent.
 
Having read neon's words on many an occasion, I never imagined he could intend anything negative from the 'it's only a blowjob' statement. Should anyone doubt my respect for neon as a person and author; one of his stories has been, and will continue to be, on my favorites list. I still don't understand the meaning of the line, but I don't want to distract from the main focus of the thread to elaborate on it further. Perhaps best to shrug it off as a the type of misunderstanding that so easily accompanies the hastily read word.

Did Pervis pick Ann because she is black? If so, I missed that. Otherwise, I agree this isn't a story about race- but I'm willing to believe Ann would form a negative association in her mind regarding the issue. And, yes, this would cloud her perception of the incident in a way that obscures that her gender was assaulted far more than her race. This must confuse Ann, but I like the way it plays into her character and the story.

I was unaware that many black women found interracial dating to be unacceptable during this era. Interesting.

I thought this was an excellent line, conveying Ann's angst as seen through her swagger:
"You mean having to ball Mr. Pervis? If you don't count not being able to sleep the night before, then feeling sick that morning and dirty afterwards; no, not really.

As for the tribbles, would you believe that even as I read that the girls had a favorite episode I wondered if it might be the one with the little furry things. Too funny.

There are plenty of stories on Lit dealing with sex-for-grades as an erotic angle. I admire the way this story examines the lingering effects instead of the particulars of the incident itself.

Take Care,
Penny
 
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@#$%^&*

What happened to that very insightful post I made last night? ;)

I'll try to recap if it doesn't reappear within the next few days.

:mad:
 
Black Tulip said:
@#$%^&*

What happened to that very insightful post I made last night? ;)

I'll try to recap if it doesn't reappear within the next few days.

:mad:
To: Black Tulip

:rose: X 12

Rumple Foreskin :cool:
 
Here's me, collecting my :rose: :rose: . ;)

I'm surprised nobody mentioned them, so perhaps I found two errors in spelling/grammar that aren't really there?

As instructed, Cindy set on her narrow bed and
Shouldn't that be "Cindy sat on her narrow bed"?

said Ann, as she got up and to refill her glass.
I think you have to say "she got up to refill her glass" or "she got up and refilled her glass".

As for the story itself, I liked the idea and I would place it in Non-Erotic because the moving factor is anger, resentment and not so much the sex. Sure, Ann is not happy she had sex with the teacher, but her motives are found more in the anger at being forced, being made to obey him. The coercion is not adding to her sexual pleasure as far as I could tell. So that would mean it's not a good candidate for Non-Consent, in my opinion.

You even have Ann say she hated having to do what Pervis wants more than the acts themselves.

I think it shows that you are wavering between these two categories. You have to shift your focus to one or the other to make the story a bit sharper.

The way the girls are interacting is very good. Specially at the end where Cindy needs a hug. Very nice touch. As for the speed with which Ann is recovering, I find that believable. Crying, wiping of the tears and a wisecrack to put the mask back in place.
I can relate to that. :rolleyes:

Even if a bit late, I hope my contribution is still helpful.

:D
 
BT,

Thanks for your insight. As a guy I'm always working in a certain amount of fog when it comes to the relationship between females. And bless you for catching those screw-ups.

Rumple Foreskin :cool:
 
Disclaimer: I don't know what I am talking about either.

A nice story, but unsure of where it should go.

Perhaps you should develop the characters at the beginning of the story, rather than let it develop in the story.

Your descriptions of the apartment and life of nursing students was very detailed and right on target. Bravo! Very life-like.

It's my first time Critiquing, so plase bear with me.
 
msboy8,

Thanks for your time and thoughts. And see, you wrote a crit and are still alive with your physical and mental faculties intact, at least most of 'em.

Some other critters also suggested beefing up the characters earlier in the story. It's not a bad idea and I might have done that except I felt Ann's background needed to be a part of her story. That's why, even though the story opens and closes with talk of Gwen, and her kissing a patient, that character isn't developed at all. But I'll look back over the story and see it adding something about them a little sooner might work.

Rumple
 
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