Discussion: Roleplaying or Cooperative Story Telling

[Otto26]

Discussion: Roleplaying or Cooperative Story Telling?

How do you view it? I tend to take the idea that I am telling a story with my writing partners and that I am telling the story from the viewpoint of one character (sometimes more, but generally just one). Accordingly, I try to adhere to the following guidelines.

1) Make your partners look good. If you make your fellow writers/characters look good the story will be fun to read and you will look good.
2) Accept what is written. If it is written, then it is so. You may add detail/clarification, but do not contradict what is written.
3) Build upon what is written. Don't leave material hanging. Use it. Take the details that have been provided and incorporate them into your narrative. You should provide cues for your fellow writers, and they should look for them. They may or may not be used.
4) Be detailed. A vase is boring. A blue vase is less boring. A blue vase with a bunch of multi-colored flowers starting to visibly wilt is interesting. Don't drown in details, though. In real life, we tend to have tunnel-vision and we notice different levels of detail. The more detail we notice, the more important the object is.
5) Characterize. Always seize upon the opportunity to build your character. The interaction that takes place between the characters is what is important. Everything else is just various types of background.
6) Don't say it, show it. Don't write, "He was angry." Better would be to show that he is angry by the actions he takes, or the words he speaks. "He threw the papers down on the desk. 'What do you mean there's no money?' he shouted."
7) Avoid questions, when possible. Questions require an answer and slow things down. Questions can be asked in private messages and the answers incorporated into your narrative.
8) Write for your character. Doing major things to another character should only be done with that character's permission. Doing something major to someone's character without their permission is rude. But if you are going to interact with a character, interact. Let them play their part. Writing for them robs them of the opportunity to characterize.
9) The narrator/story-originator sets the broad scope of the scenario. S/He is responsible for 'setting the stage', getting things started, and keeping everybody moving along a broad plot path. Everyone is expected to play within that broad plot path.
10) Readers are prepared to suspend a little disbelief. Don't make them work too hard. Keep things as close to the scenario-reality as possible in order to make the story more believable.
11) Keep your fellow players up to date. Private notes can provide information that other players can incorporate into their narrative. These notes also help to define the story world. Notes are subject to debate right up until they become part of the narrative. Once it's written, it's so.
12) It is okay (strongly encouraged) that narratives overlap. If one writer writes narrative describing a scene that involves another writer, then the second writer is encouraged to 're-tell' that scene from their point of view as part of their narrative. It is important that players not contradict each other. This is disruptive to the flow of the story and creates ill-will. The easiest way to minimize contradiction is to make it clear that a character is registering impressions. If Jack says something to Albert, Jack may perceive his words as kind while Albert perceives them as being harsh. If both characters make concrete statements to this effect, then they are contradiction each other. If they each record what they perceived, then there is no contradiction, simply different views of the same action.

 

[TearsoftheWorld]

Good idea for a topic ^_^

1) I do agree that making the story worth reading is a plus, it shouldn't have to add work on your part to make it that way, or rather you shouldn't have to put more work in just to make your partner look good. Since I'm a fan of first impressions, if they can't put a little thought into their posts then it ruins the fun. Does this mean I'll give up on the thread, or put less thought into my own posts? No, it just means that it won't be the greatest story ever.

2) Never have I ever (love saying that) had to change a post because I didn't like how it went. If it's there I go with it =)

3) Meh, sometimes I can be pretty dull in adding onto a post, but then again I'm not a control freak so I allow some leeway in which my partner has some control.

4) *nods her head* Detail is always a plus, not a requirement but it'll make the story that much better. If you can visualize the setting... mmmm =)

5) *is always plotting her characters* Nothing is set in stone, ever.

6) I think questions from the character are necessary, although they don't go in posts. Say I'm playing a woman in a foreign land, naturally she'll ask questions to customs that she doesn't quite understand. She won't be a genius and pick things up just like that, but eh, PM's are good.

 

[Maid of Marvels]

I'm not sure what you had in mind when you posted this thread, but since you took the time, so will I -- or at least give it a shot. I can't help wondering if this is directed at someone specific or all of us, in general.

1) Make your partners look good. If you make your fellow writers/characters look good the story will be fun to read and you will look good.
Why not do the best you can and not worry about beauty contests and competitiveness? When you choose who you write with, it's a typically good indication that you enjoy the way they write. (Most of the time.) This comment made me consider whether "making them look good" implies that one would be overcompensating to make up for what they consider a less-than-good co-writer. It is my opinion that this is a joint effort. This smacks of holier-than-thou: look how well I can write compared to...

2) Accept what is written. If it is written, then it is so. You may add detail/clarification, but do not contradict what is written.
NOTHING is written in stone. Ever. Just think how boring that would be. Then again, some people don't like expressing their own opinions or thoughts and find it safer to be led by the nose rather than stand behind or for what they really feel. Why not say what you mean or think instead of slogging along unhappily?

3) Build upon what is written. Don't leave material hanging. Use it. Take the details that have been provided and incorporate them into your narrative. You should provide cues for your fellow writers, and they should look for them. They may or may not be used.
You just contradicted yourself.

4) Be detailed. A vase is boring. A blue vase is less boring. A blue vase with a bunch of multi-colored flowers starting to visibly wilt is interesting. Don't drown in details, though. In real life, we tend to have tunnel-vision and we notice different levels of detail. The more detail we notice, the more important the object is.
A description that goes on for ages gives me a nosebleed, though I would rather someone describe a character than slap down some measurements. Personally, I am quite amused by bra sizes given for characters pre-1920's. Tunnel-vision implies seeing only one thing rather than a more panoramic view of something.

5) Characterize. Always seize upon the opportunity to build your character. The interaction that takes place between the characters is what is important. Everything else is just various types of background.
Hmm... even one-dimensional, cardboard characters need backdrop. If there is no background, you might as well take your thread to IM. On the other hand, there are many who are just fine with writing only dialogue or actions without considering anything else. And what of a story that has only one character? Hmm...

6) Don't say it, show it. Don't write, "He was angry." Better would be to show that he is angry by the actions he takes, or the words he speaks. "He threw the papers down on the desk. 'What do you mean there's no money?' he shouted."
Interesting, but not always practical, but I would like to see a return to emotions of the characters having a part in the writing here.

7) Avoid questions, when possible. Questions require an answer and slow things down. Questions can be asked in private messages and the answers incorporated into your narrative.
Yes, speed is everything. If we pause for questions (and replies) between characters or don't work an answer into our posts, the other writer will have to take time to reply. This absolutely debunks your theory on interaction and brings us to the return of one-dimensional characters/stories.

8) Write for your character. Doing major things to another character should only be done with that character's permission. Doing something major to someone's character without their permission is rude. But if you are going to interact with a character, interact. Let them play their part. Writing for them robs them of the opportunity to characterize.
I suppose this, too, depends on the writers involved. I refuse to read a post that is simply a copy of the previous with a couple of things added in. It rarely helps to move a story forward. If you get to know your co-writer and their character, you can easily do it.

9) The narrator/story-originator sets the broad scope of the scenario. S/He is responsible for 'setting the stage', getting things started, and keeping everybody moving along a broad plot path. Everyone is expected to play within that broad plot path.
If all writers READ every post, as they should do in a group thread, then the story should move smoothly. That doesn't seem to happen here by admission of writers I have asked this same question of. Side stories are part of what makes a group effort fun and twists (when believable) are also fun. Many thread starters grumble but choose to say nothing. Others simply don't care.

10) Readers are prepared to suspend a little disbelief. Don't make them work too hard. Keep things as close to the scenario-reality as possible in order to make the story more believable.
Don't underestimate the intelligence of the readers or writers at Lit, though I personally need things to make sense. Don't dumb down your writing. It's insulting to your co-writer, your readers, and - most importantly - yourself.

11) Keep your fellow players up to date. Private notes can provide information that other players can incorporate into their narrative. These notes also help to define the story world. Notes are subject to debate right up until they become part of the narrative. Once it's written, it's so.
Forget that "once written it is so" stuff. I'd wager you edit stories (or have them edited for you) before submitting them to this site. Perhaps the once written only applies to us dummies in the SRP?

12) It is okay (strongly encouraged) that narratives overlap. If one writer writes narrative describing a scene that involves another writer, then the second writer is encouraged to 're-tell' that scene from their point of view as part of their narrative. It is important that players not contradict each other. This is disruptive to the flow of the story and creates ill-will. The easiest way to minimize contradiction is to make it clear that a character is registering impressions. If Jack says something to Albert, Jack may perceive his words as kind while Albert perceives them as being harsh. If both characters make concrete statements to this effect, then they are contradiction each other. If they each record what they perceived, then there is no contradiction, simply different views of the same action.
Although I do understand (or think I do) what you mean here, I just don't want to read that same scene ten times. It's like deja vu all over again, all over again, all over... ad nauseum. Besides, that is what OOC, PM and IM are for. Discussion.

Oh, and just an aside: While short posts (one or two lines) leave me lacking, overlong posts make me either skip or skim. Bigger is NOT better -- especially when it's a rehash of the previous post.

 

[Kousotu]

my 2 cents

How many times this thing has contradictions is funny.

On #6: I agree that things shoul be better described, but allow me to use your example, "He was angry." Instead of that longwinded alternative, minor changes could be made. such as: "He was livid." Many would still be short, but more descriptive.

#7: sometimes questions are essental to stay informed, especially when they are about the plot, or details in the story

 

[Steiner]

1) Make your partners look good. If you make your fellow writers/characters look good the story will be fun to read and you will look good.

I think that *I* understand what you meant by this. Don't write your posts to score points off other people's characters by stating that your character is so much bigger, faster, more handsome, smarter etc etc etc. It's fine to have a positive editorial slant towards your character in subjective descriptions - but if you write slanted descriptions that are supposed to be objective then your other writers may wonder what the hell your problem is.

2) Accept what is written. If it is written, then it is so. You may add detail/clarification, but do not contradict what is written.

Actually, whilst I believe in maintaining the narrative flow of a story, if I'm writing with just one other writer and they put something in or leave something out that I think compromises the story I WILL write and ask for an edit. I generally only do this on my very favourite threads, and only on threads with one other writer.

3) Build upon what is written. Don't leave material hanging. Use it. Take the details that have been provided and incorporate them into your narrative. You should provide cues for your fellow writers, and they should look for them. They may or may not be used.

Ja. Da. Oui. Hai. You must absolutely weave elements of the other writers work into your own posts. Reading cooperative and reactive writing is far more interesting than watching two writers trying to wrest control of reality from each other in posts that may as well be in different threads.

4) Be detailed. A vase is boring. A blue vase is less boring. A blue vase with a bunch of multi-colored flowers starting to visibly wilt is interesting. Don't drown in details, though. In real life, we tend to have tunnel-vision and we notice different levels of detail. The more detail we notice, the more important the object is.

Provide interesting but above all RELEVANT detail. Chekov said of playwrighting that if one hangs a gun on the wall in the first act, it should be fired in the third. Use the weight of your descriptive text to highlight items, people or details that are IMPORTANT IN THE PLOT. Don't go describing a masterwork longsword for two pages if your character puts it in a box and then never uses it again. If said sword was the heirloom of your house and a key part of the next six weeks of writing, then you'd be justified in writing a hefty description. Yes, you should add in sufficient detail to set the scene, but overwriting is as grevious a sin as underwriting.

5) Characterize. Always seize upon the opportunity to build your character. The interaction that takes place between the characters is what is important. Everything else is just various types of background.

Anything that affects the characters and their relationships is of paramount importance. If two characters are having a meal, I describe the food. Describing the food means that I can describe my characters reaction to it, and so can my partner writing the other role. These details suddenly become important to the plot.

6) Don't say it, show it. Don't write, "He was angry." Better would be to show that he is angry by the actions he takes, or the words he speaks. "He threw the papers down on the desk. 'What do you mean there's no money?' he shouted."

It should be noted that it is no good saying "He was furious" nd then going on to describe how he was furious and what the visual effects of that fury are. We're not writing children's stories here. I personally prefer to descaribe the fury and leave the bare fact unreported. Our readers get it.

7) Avoid questions, when possible. Questions require an answer and slow things down. Questions can be asked in private messages and the answers incorporated into your narrative.

This could be said of almost any requirement for interaction. Let's face it, we've all been there - when three of the four writers are up to four posts a day and the fourth posts once every three days. Yes it's annoying to have to wait for that response but, as we said, interactions between the characters are the key thing. Unfortunately (I mean fortunately, of course) you will never remove the need for the other writer to post.

8) Write for your character. Doing major things to another character should only be done with that character's permission. Doing something major to someone's character without their permission is rude. But if you are going to interact with a character, interact. Let them play their part. Writing for them robs them of the opportunity to characterize.

This is a borderline question because whilst what you say is simple good manners in most threads, those threads where the writers can transcend this rule and write posts that include both characters are the best on here. Write words and actions by anothers character only by arrangement and subject to edit, say I.

9) The narrator/story-originator sets the broad scope of the scenario. S/He is responsible for 'setting the stage', getting things started, and keeping everybody moving along a broad plot path. Everyone is expected to play within that broad plot path.

Works in theory. Good luck!

10) Readers are prepared to suspend a little disbelief. Don't make them work too hard. Keep things as close to the scenario-reality as possible in order to make the story more believable.

The phrase we're looking for is absolute consistency with the threads spirit. That means that if the thread is based on a computergame, roleplaying game, anime, movie, historical period or book - it must be utterly consistent with the established rules of that work. Any deviations MUST be agreed collectively. If you're writing a FFVII fanthread, for example, and you decide that Cloud and Sephiroth are having an affair, it's best to make the person writing Tifa aware that you intend to do this well in advance.

11) Keep your fellow players up to date. Private notes can provide information that other players can incorporate into their narrative. These notes also help to define the story world. Notes are subject to debate right up until they become part of the narrative. Once it's written, it's so.

I often write PM's to cowriters. Some of my threads actually have a predecided plot arc agreed upon before we write a single post. Even if I'm not discussing plot with a cowriter, I might chat by PM with them - it's best to know something about the person you're writing with. Meet their expectations for the thread so that everyone is having fun!

12) It is okay (strongly encouraged) that narratives overlap. If one writer writes narrative describing a scene that involves another writer, then the second writer is encouraged to 're-tell' that scene from their point of view as part of their narrative. It is important that players not contradict each other. This is disruptive to the flow of the story and creates ill-will. The easiest way to minimize contradiction is to make it clear that a character is registering impressions. If Jack says something to Albert, Jack may perceive his words as kind while Albert perceives them as being harsh. If both characters make concrete statements to this effect, then they are contradiction each other. If they each record what they perceived, then there is no contradiction, simply different views of the same action.

Here I quote the difference between subjective and objective writing again. Subjective descriptions can and should disagree - because no two people agree totally on something. I agree with Maid's point about life being too short to read every scene four times. Personally speaking I weave details of the previous narrative into my own post and react to them. That way there is a GOOD balance of fresh material and recap. Writing a post that is 100% just your characters version of a previous post does NOT advance the plot. The plot must flow!

 

[Otto26]

I'm not sure what you had in mind when you posted this thread, but since you took the time, so will I -- or at least give it a shot. I can't help wondering if this is directed at someone specific or all of us, in general.

It's discussion.

3) Build upon what is written. Don't leave material hanging. Use it. Take the details that have been provided and incorporate them into your narrative. You should provide cues for your fellow writers, and they should look for them. They may or may not be used.
You just contradicted yourself.

Consistency is not a trait I possess an abundance of. But I fail to see where I have contradicted myself. I look for details and cues my writing partners provide and I try to provide cues and details to them. Sometimes that stuff gets left hanging.

7) Avoid questions, when possible. Questions require an answer and slow things down. Questions can be asked in private messages and the answers incorporated into your narrative.
Yes, speed is everything. If we pause for questions (and replies) between characters or don't work an answer into our posts, the other writer will have to take time to reply. This absolutely debunks your theory on interaction and brings us to the return of one-dimensional characters/stories.

No, I think it means I prefer narrative that flows rather than being a choppy series of questions.

11) Keep your fellow players up to date. Private notes can provide information that other players can incorporate into their narrative. These notes also help to define the story world. Notes are subject to debate right up until they become part of the narrative. Once it's written, it's so.
Forget that "once written it is so" stuff. I'd wager you edit stories (or have them edited for you) before submitting them to this site. Perhaps the once written only applies to us dummies in the SRP?

Ouch. Wasn't aware I'd posted this to the General Board.

 

[Kousotu]

Know your role, and Shut your mouth!

 

[TearsoftheWorld]

See now that was definitely not necessary, apologize Kous >=(

 

[Kousotu]

See now that was definitely not necessary, apologize Kous >=(

neither was bashing the board members as a whole. Tired of wanna be kings..

 

[Steiner]

As an intellectual discussion, I think this has merit. As an emotional discussion it has a VERY low Signal to Noise ratio. Let's keep it objective, people.

 

[Otto26]

neither was bashing the board members as a whole. Tired of wanna be kings..

????

How do you view it? I tend to take the idea that I am telling a story with my writing partners and that I am telling the story from the viewpoint of one character (sometimes more, but generally just one). Accordingly, I try to adhere to the following guidelines.

If you felt I was bashing anyone then I'm sorry you thought that. I was offering a starting point for discussion using guidelines I wrote for myself about two years ago. I certainly don't have a lock on skill at writing nor do I feel that my particular style is inherently superior to other styles.

And being 'king' is not a job I want. The hat lets the rain in and the peasants are a scruffy and ungrateful lot.

 

[Kousotu]

you know what I meant, smartass

 

[Otto26]

I think that *I* understand what you meant by this. Don't write your posts to score points off other people's characters by stating that your character is so much bigger, faster, more handsome, smarter etc etc etc. It's fine to have a positive editorial slant towards your character in subjective descriptions - but if you write slanted descriptions that are supposed to be objective then your other writers may wonder what the hell your problem is.

I tend to think of 'make your partners look good' as my golden rule with all the other guidelines contributing to that goal. The basic idea, to my mind, is that I'm not in competition with my writing partners. If I end up being Joe Extra in the Great Story then that's okay, because making the story good is what matters.

And that moves back to my original question: roleplaying or cooperative story writing? I tend to approach everything as a cooperative story. I'm curious how other people approach this exercise.

 

[why_me884]

Educational

I find this thread interesting and informative as new to lit roleplaying. I find I read much more then participate because I am trying to learn how different people view writing with someone else.

I've always wondered how you find a partner that you will not dissappoint or will dissappoint you. It is nice to read what other people expect out of role playing partners.

I was real tired of yahoo chat role playing that wasn't a story at all just cyber sex but the one in a 10,000 that I did find was a real source of entertainment.

Hope you don't mind an outsiders viewpoint.

Amy

 

[Otto26]

I find this thread interesting and informative as new to lit roleplaying. I find I read much more then participate because I am trying to learn how different people view writing with someone else.

I've always wondered how you find a partner that you will not dissappoint or will dissappoint you. It is nice to read what other people expect out of role playing partners.

My experience has been that you can:
a) Wait around until you see a thread you're interested in and join in. This lets you pick someone who shares your interests.
b) Start your own thread. This way you need to state your interests up front.
Welcome.

I was real tired of yahoo chat role playing that wasn't a story at all just cyber sex but the one in a 10,000 that I did find was a real source of entertainment.

Hope you don't mind an outsiders viewpoint.

Amy

Actually, I posted the thread to get other viewpoints. So I'm just fine with your opinion.

I very much prefer this format to chat. The mechanics of sex are the mechanics of sex and it's the context that helps to make them varied and interesting. I also enjoy the slower pace of writing (along with the ability to interact with people who live in very different time-zones) and believe that it allows me to produce better material.