Discussion: Op_Cit

[KillerMuffin]

Op_Cit has been a wonderful face in the Circle this past week or so. He has series of four chapters in a story for you to review.

By convention, the group has agreed that we review separately posted chapters in separate discussions, however, you may review as many of the chapters as you wish.

Please, let's give Op_Cit the attention we're getting to be known for!

From the Author

Ok, now I get to ask for some feedback (though I will continue to offer my lame efforts for at least a few more stories or until a crowd assembles with pitchforks and torches.) This is not my first story, but I have only written a few.

Though the story is in four segments it's less than 10k words, and I don't want to take up a lot of space and time in this group reviewing each chapter separately. (Unless you want to). Here are the links:

"They Change the Letters"
http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=102148

It was written very quick and dirty, with only 1 read through edit pass. There is probably a lot of nitty gramatical stuff, so don't feel compelled to undertake the tedium of identifying each, but please point out anything that reaches out and pokes you in the eye. Mostly general criticism and specific areas of trouble.

Basic concept of the story: what if those magazine letters are changed by the editors to make them more erotic but their mods fall short of reality. From there, the story kind of went its own way.

1. How do you rate the concept & delivery?

2. I'm very uncomfortable with the multi-chapter format, but I was in a hurry. Please rate the segmentation of the story and its effect on readability/continuity and enjoyment.

3. I'm still pretty wet behind the ears on this sex scene writing, please point out where it's not working. (Especially how to more effectively intersperse action and words).

4. Tell me the worst things you possibly can think of about the story, pull no punches. Please limit these to no more than 36.

5. If you still have time, can you explain the effect of Vatican II on the geopolitical relations of North African nations and the middle east, provide diagrams where appropriate. At some point please tell me what the heck Vatican II was.

Many thanks in advance,
OC

Ten thousand writers out of work and everybody wants to be a comedian...

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Op_Cit,

For a “virgin” you put out like a pro. The story is imaginative. The letter gives it a good “frame” and, at the end, a nice “tie-back” to the beginning. I thought Erin’s changing rationalizations was also well-done.

IMHO, there were some problems with the story. Chief among them was the lack of any description of the setting, characters or their motivations which made it hard to visualize what was happening. For instance, here’s a sentence from paragraph two, “You see my neighbor and friend Julie is single and had not been dating in quite some time.”

To me, the obvious question is, why? Does she have a face that would stop a clock? Is she an emotional wreck from a failed relationship? Does she have BO or maybe breath so bad it'd knock a buzzard off a gut wagon?

We learn that they’re neighbors, but what type of neighborhood do they live in? Is this a fancy apartment complex, a seedy trailer park, middle class ranch style suburban homes, a condo overlooking the Pacific, etc.?

A little physical description of the characters, early in the story, would help with visualization. As is, the reader’s not even sure about their age or general physical appearance. While a canopy bed was mentioned, there was almost no other description giving of the interiors. That meant readers didn’t know what the women looked like or anything specific about the setting where they were making love. And speaking of making love, do either of them do anything else-like work?

As for motivations, why would Erin volunteer her husband for stud service but not want him to know he has a different partner? Granted, all that’s needed for the story to work. But for this reader, at least, it took a major “suspension of disbelief” to say, “Of course, she did,” and keep on reading.

All my nuts, knocks, and aches aside, your writing's not bad, especially for someone just starting, but there are a few things you may want to work on. For instance, IMHO, you used “I” in the first person singular, way too often.

Here’s an example: “I didn't know what to say. I thought of myself and my fantasies and masturbation. I never had a wit of trouble. Well the first time, when I was ten and I didn't know what was happening... but I never had a problem since.”

The letter “I” appears six times in that paragraph and shows up as the first letter of the first three sentences. It’s a hard habit to break, especially when writing in first person, but it can be done.

You said not to worry about grammar unless something was a major problem. This short paragraph from the last chapter may qualify. “After four orgasms Julie begged me to stop... I don't know how many she'd had by then.”

Maybe you meant to say something along the lines of, “After I’d experienced four orgasms of my own, Julie begged me to stop(use an em dash, not an ellipsis)-I don’t know how many she’d had by then.”

That’s more than enough crap to shovel your way. Remember, all of this is just the subjective opinion of another writer. If some of it’s helpful, great. It it’s all bilge, well, the price was right.

With any luck, I’ve covered some of your questions. However, I’ll admit to not having referred to number five.

5. If you still have time, can you explain the effect of Vatican II on the geopolitical relations of North African nations and the middle east, provide diagrams where appropriate. At some point please tell me what the heck Vatican II was.

My answer to the first part of your question is simple: NO
As for part two, that answer is also simple: Vatican II was what came after Vatican I.

Thanks for your kind words about my story. I hope some of my flotsam and jetsam is more help that hinderance.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[Op_Cit]

Wow, thanks RF. These are things I didn't even think to ask about.

In regards to background/detail:

Are the items you mention questions that occurred to you at the end as an editor, or where they things which you stumbled upon as a reader, or did they slowly creep up on you as a reader?

If there were specific stumbling points from lack of background can you identify where?

The area of background/fill is something I have trouble with. As a reader, I often find myself getting annoyed with stories where I have to go through a lot of background to get to the story. When I've started stories out with explaining, I tend to get carried away explaining too much: if I say 'this' is because of 'so' then I think I have to say 'so' is because of 'such', and then 'such' is all to often becaus of 'thus'... and I start getting all tangled up...

With this story, I was concerned about the length. I just wanted to write a short, but shortly into it, I realized it wasn't going to be able to be done in 3k words. Then I wanted to do it in 6k words, but still the transformation I wanted to make in the main character didn't work, so it went on. I worry that I made the last segment too short in my attempt to not let it get carried away.

Anyway, the question is, how much backfill is enough, and how? Is it enough to make simple one sentence explanations as you go along?

Limited physical description was intentional, as I tend to like to let the reader fill that part in with their imagination. I want the characters to be pin-up models, but I think stories get hokey when authors begin by describing centerfolds, it tends to hinder that suspension of disbelief for me.

There was an actual PF letter that this is based on (though I'm sure the names are different), and I got really caught up in telling the story in the voice of the main character.

A part of me wanted to leave a lot unsaid about what happened before to let the reader's imagination fill in. And as I tried to tell it like the main character would tell it, I thought she'd leave out things while writing in context.

I originally thought to write this story in 3PPOV but that was going to get tricky in a number of ways, so the 1PPOV was laziness on my part.

One interesting thing is that I had some feedback where the reader said he liked the seduction of the main character by the second. It confused me for a moment because I had gotten so into describing things from Erin's point of view (where she wasn't aware of being seduced), that I didn't think there was any seduction going on: I had forgotten that it was my original idea for Julie to seduce Erin.

Anyway, I did have trouble at times balancing writing with her voice and writing better than she would. That explains the "I" too much in places but I see now what you're saying and I realize how I can write that more fluidly and still stay in character (did I just say I too much?).

As for the next, I think maybe I was trying to be too clever:

"After four orgasms Julie begged me to stop... I don't know how many she'd had by then."

It was kind of written like a zinger to be funny: Erin is being caught up in her own experience and then remembers as an after thought to explain to the reader what she was saying...

Thanks for the feedback, you've provided much for me to consider next time.
OC

But what was Vatican I?

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

OC,

What you're having to wrestle with is the "art" of fiction writing. How much is too much? When should something occur? IMHO, questions such as those have no "right" answer. Therefore, everything I'm about to say can, and probably will, be contradicted by another writer-and they'll also be right.

Some of the items I mentioned as "missing" occured to me while reading, others while writing. They may not have occured at all to another reader. In the 19th century, writers would go on for page after page describing how someone was dressed, the view from a window, or the interior of a room. As a rule, modern readers don't care for such elaborate detail.

You wrote, "Limited physical description was intentional, as I tend to like to let the reader fill that part in with their imagination. I want the characters to be pin-up models, but I think stories get hokey when authors begin by describing centerfolds, it tends to hinder that suspension of disbelief for me."

You might want to read (or re-read) a few Elmore Leonard books. As his sales indicate, they're very good reads. But read them as an author. Notice how his introductions of characters and settings are almost always vivid and concise. (He's also considered by many to be one of the best dialogue writers working today so I'd suggest you pay attention to that as well.)

For what it's worth, I thought the "seduction" of Erin was well-done and the finest part of your story. To me, it more than justified the lenght. My only suggestion would be to have indicated this earlier (stronger) in the story. Virutally all writers MUST hook the reader quickly. Doing this involves scene setting, character description, and plot indicators. None of that comes easy for most of us.

Hope some of this helped. Get back in touch if it didn't.

Oh, yeah. Vatican I is the one that came before Vatican II. But seriously folks, those were major policy councils of the Roman Catholic church. VII "modernized" the church and is probably most famous for switching the mass from latin to local languages.

RF

 

[Guest]

VI and II

Op cit: I can't tell if you really want to know, but this is stuff I happen to know so I'll just post it here. (Yes, I'm RC, though very ambivalent and lazy about it.)

Rumple is correct, most people think of the Catholic Mass switching to the vernacular language vs. the old Latin when they think of VII. But more substantively the altar was turned around so the server (priest) now faced the people vs. being an elite minister unconnected to the prayers of the faithful. Other major changes included less restrictions on the laity’s participation in worship, a greater outreach and communicative understanding with non-Roman faiths, and a greater concern for social issues and justice. The Dogmatic Constitution of the church came out of this council, the first ever written down and voted upon such offcial 'policy' explaining just 'what' the Church is.

Vatican I was held in 1869 and is mostly known for declaring the infallibility of the Pope. (Big booboo as far as I'm concerned.)

Regards, Perdita

 

[the_bragis]

Hello Op_Cit,

1. How do you rate the concept & delivery?

I really enjoy these first person stories that have this ‘chat over a cuppa’ kind of feel. As for ‘rating’ your story, well I’ll leave that for those who know a whole lot more about grammar and technical issues than I do.

2. I'm very uncomfortable with the multi-chapter format, but I was in a hurry. Please rate the segmentation of the story and its effect on readability/continuity and enjoyment.

I don’t have any problems with this. I consider it’s entirely up to the author how a story is presented.

3. I'm still pretty wet behind the ears on this sex scene writing please point out where it's not working. (Especially how to more effectively intersperse action and words).

I won't go into more detail here as that part of the letter is true and you can read it in that magazine.

I can’t read the letter and I wish you had gone into more detail, for two reasons. I didn’t really understand what was going on here. I read it several times and it’s still not entirely clear to me. And the detail or lack of it put a whole new meaning on skimming over what happened. It could’ve really sizzled here. Damn it a whole red-hot chapter or story could have been written around just this one event.

4. Tell me the worst things you possibly can think of about the story, pull no punches. Please limit these to no more than 36.

Nothing really jumped out at me, just a few very minor things that you may want to consider.

Had not, hasn’t, is not, isn’t. Contractions I think give your story a smoother feel especially in the first person. I’m not about to make a list here, but I think there were a few places where you could have used them more.

I think there is a minor typo in the third paragraph.

Her concern startled me and I my heart lept (sic - leapt)as I felt her concern, …

It’s not a big deal but it’s best to avoid the same words (concern) too close together.

Those funny little ** , what were they all about?

5. If you still have time, can you explain the effect of Vatican II on the geopolitical relations of North African nations and the middle east, provide diagrams where appropriate. At some point please tell me what the heck Vatican II was.

Cute!


Overall, very nicely done.

I wish you well with your future writing.

Alex (fem).

 

[Op_Cit]

I can’t read the letter and I wish you had gone into more detail, for two reasons. I didn’t really understand what was going on here. I read it several times and it’s still not entirely clear to me. And the detail or lack of it put a whole new meaning on skimming over what happened. It could’ve really sizzled here. Damn it a whole red-hot chapter or story could have been written around just this one event.

...

Had not, hasn’t, is not, isn’t. Contractions I think give your story a smoother feel especially in the first person. I’m not about to make a list here, but I think there were a few places where you could have used them more.

I think there is a minor typo in the third paragraph.

...

Those funny little ** , what were they all about?

Alex (fem). [/B]

Hey Alex (shouldn't 'the_' be capitalized?),

Thanks for your help.

The letter was really hot and I tried to walk the line between repeating what went before and tantalization. More self imposed pressure to be brief here though, but I'm sure you're right about a few more bits of description being necessary.

Good point about the contractions also, again I was wavering between what the character would say and better writing. I think I took out a few contractions on my second read through, but you're probably right in that they go with the voice being used.

Word repetition is something I hate too... next time I'm gonna try to find someone else to look my story over before I post it.

As for the asterisks. There are different minds and conventions out there about how to write/format these stories for the internet. I find myself wanting to use italics and bold at times and I find myself giving in to these urges. However, different sites handle these differently. Some leave text as is, some reformat for you, some reformat differently...

I think more sites lean to underscores to set off italics and asterisks to set off bold.

I'm thinking that maybe I better read the submission guidelines for literotica before I post again...

Thanks once more,

OC

 

[the_bragis]

Hi OC,

Yes it should be The_Bragis. I don't know how that happened, but I just never bothered to bother Laurel with it.

Please remember my comments are just my opinions. It's entirely up to you how you present your stories.

Alex.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I read the first chapter.

You've got a very breathless, very chatty narrator there. To be blunt, I think she talks too much.

Okay. Takling it from the top.

First of all I read that paragraph obout what happened with Erin, Julie, and David about 6 times and still couldn't figure out what had happened. I know, you refer the readers to the letter in the magazine where you describe it, but of course we don't have access to the magazine, and in any case, what seems to have happened as I understand it is bizarre beyond believe.

You're telling us that somehow Erin and Julie switched places, and that Erin's husband ended up fucking Julie while thinking it was his wife Julie.

This is simply impossible. It's unbelievable. There's no way you could not know you were having sex with a different person. No way.

But then someone hides "behind" a canopy. A canopy goes above a bed. There is no "behind".

Then there's another switch, and Julie ends up blowing her husband while Erin sneaks around and eats her, and still the old man doesn't suspect anything's amiss. What? Is he brain dead?

No, no. That just won't do. You lost me right there. I just couldn't believe it at all.

But all that is actually preface to the real story, which is Erin's lesbian seductionof Julie. This part took too long for me. As Lit readers, we all pretty much knew what was going to happen between them, but for the sake of form you have to have some reluctance. This is, after all, a seduction. Even so, I think this goes on for too long between the two women. They're sitting there talking about not being lesbians while they're already practically masturbating in front of each other, and I think that goes on for far too long.

Something in you style made this part confusing to me as well. I think it's the way that you have action, a quoptation, maybe more action or description, and then sometimes another quotation all in one paragraph. It gets bewildering.

Here's a more or less random paragraph:
--------------------------------------------
I said, "I know what you mean. It was so exciting to me thinking we might get caught. Hearing his pants hit the floor and then feeling the bed move as he pushed into you. I think he was slamming you the way the bed was creaking." Julie's other hand was on her tummy toying with her belly button and as I spoke I saw her hand slowly move lower. I was so caught up in the moment: there was a subdued excitement in the air and we were both feeling so good. I wanted to touch myself, but I couldn't in front of Julie.
-------------------------------------------

Here's the way I would rather see it:
--------------------------------------------
I said, "I know what you mean. It was so exciting to me thinking we might get caught. Hearing his pants hit the floor and then feeling the bed move as he pushed into you. I think he was slamming you the way the bed was creaking."

Julie's other hand was on her tummy toying with her belly button and as I spoke I saw her hand slowly move lower.

I was so caught up in the moment. There was a subdued excitement in the air and we were both feeling so good. I wanted to touch myself, but I couldn't in front of Julie.
--------------------------------------------------
Now, I happen to be a big fan of lots of paragraphs for just this reason: it's easier to read and it avoids that breathless, words-tumbling-all-over-each-other feel that a crowded paragraph conveys.

I also changed the colon in the last line to a new sentence (between "moment" and "There") because it should be a new sentence. I would also lose the "so's" which come from the vernacular but don't translate into text well.

For all this, I really think you do a good job of mixing dialogue and action to give a full and living pictrure of what's going on between these women. My only beef is that I think they should be put inseparate paragraphs.

They spend an awful lot of time touching themselves and talking dirty before they get down to doing anything. As I said before, that seems pretty unnatural to me; contrived. It also blurs what's important or covers it in a lot of detail.

The sex was good. Her climax was disappointing because she passed out, which is an easy way of getting out of actually decribing what it felt like. (I'm wise to those tricks. I've used them myself) Butother than that, I thought the sex was good. I appreciated the concrete sensual detail you put it there, the feel of her mouth through your panties, the lock of hair falling in her face. All excellent. That's really just the kind of detail that gets me off, making it so I can see what's happening in my mind's eye.

You asked about errors hitting us in the eye. Well, the one that hurt the most was when someone's "damn[sic] burst" and someplace where there were 2 commas separated by a space.

Overall I would say it's good. I'd like to see more paragraphs. I;d also like to see more believable sex, not in the lesbian scene, but in the first scene with the girl-switching.

Now I'll go read the other reviews.

Best

---dr.M.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I read the first chapter.

You've got a very breathless, very chatty narrator there. To be blunt, I think she talks too much.

Okay. Takling it from the top.

First of all I read that paragraph obout what happened with Erin, Julie, and David about 6 times and still couldn't figure out what had happened. I know, you refer the readers to the letter in the magazine where you describe it, but of course we don't have access to the magazine, and in any case, what seems to have happened as I understand it is bizarre beyond belief.

You're telling us that somehow Erin and Julie switched places, and that Erin's husband ended up fucking Julie while thinking it was his wife Julie.

This is simply impossible. It's unbelievable. I know that this is just porn, just fantasy, and I am willing to suspend disbelief for the sake of the 16 inch penis and the nymphomanical virgin, but there's just no way a man would not know he was having sex with a different woman than his wife. No way.

But then someone hides "behind" a canopy. A canopy goes above a bed. There is no "behind".

Then there's another switch, and Julie ends up blowing her husband while Erin sneaks around and eats her, and still the old man doesn't suspect anything's amiss. What? Is he brain dead?

No, no. That just won't do. You lost me right there. I just couldn't believe it at all.

But all that is actually preface to the real story, which is Erin's lesbian seductionof Julie. This part took too long for me. As Lit readers, we all pretty much knew what was going to happen between them well before they did, but for the sake of form you have to have some reluctance, I understand that. This is, after all, a seduction. Even so, I think this goes on for too long between the two women. They're sitting there talking about not being lesbians while they're already practically masturbating in front of each other, and I think that goes on for far too long.

Something in your style made this part confusing to me as well and made it hard for me to read and understand. I think it's the way that you crowd your paragraphs. You have action, a quotation, maybe more action or description, and then sometimes another quotation all in one paragraph. It gets bewildering.

It also gives the prose a rushed, tumbling-over-itself feel.

Here's a more or less random paragraph:
--------------------------------------------
I said, "I know what you mean. It was so exciting to me thinking we might get caught. Hearing his pants hit the floor and then feeling the bed move as he pushed into you. I think he was slamming you the way the bed was creaking." Julie's other hand was on her tummy toying with her belly button and as I spoke I saw her hand slowly move lower. I was so caught up in the moment: there was a subdued excitement in the air and we were both feeling so good. I wanted to touch myself, but I couldn't in front of Julie.
-------------------------------------------

Here's the way I would rather see it:
--------------------------------------------
I said, "I know what you mean. It was so exciting to me thinking we might get caught. Hearing his pants hit the floor and then feeling the bed move as he pushed into you. I think he was slamming you the way the bed was creaking."

Julie's other hand was on her tummy toying with her belly button and as I spoke I saw her hand slowly move lower.

I was so caught up in the moment. There was a subdued excitement in the air and we were both feeling so good. I wanted to touch myself, but I couldn't in front of Julie.
--------------------------------------------------
Now, I happen to be a big fan of lots of paragraphs for just this reason: it's easier to read and it avoids that breathless, words-tumbling-all-over-each-other feel that a crowded paragraph conveys. I'm a big fan of white space. It gives you room to breath and allows the eye to rest a little bit

I also changed the colon in the last line to a new sentence (between "moment" and "There") because it should be a new sentence. I would also lose the "so's" which come from the vernacular but don't translate into text well.

You narrator sounds like she is actually narrating, most of the time. There are a few places where, even though she's still tellingthe story, she kind of absents herself and we seem to be getting a kind of third person feel.

I myself don't much care for the kind of narration that tries to immitate speech, but that's a personal preference. Prose isn't the same as oral speech, and using this style confuses the two. You see a lot of vernacular and speech mannerisms--the use of the "so's" in the above example, for instance--sneaking in. As I say though, this is a personal preference of mine and others might not share it.

For all this, I really think you do a good job of mixing dialogue and action to give a full and living pictrure of what's going on between these women. My only beef is that I think the dialogue and action should be put in separate paragraphs.

They spend an awful lot of time touching themselves and talking dirty before they get down to doing anything. As I said before, that seems pretty unnatural to me; contrived. It also blurs what's important or covers it in a lot of detail. I found myself skipping impatiently through all that talk about how hot they were.

The sex was pretty good. Her climax was disappointing because she passed out, which is an easy way of getting out of actually decribing what it felt like. (I'm wise to those tricks. I've used them myself) But other than that, I thought the sex was good. I appreciated the concrete sensual detail you put it there, the feel of her mouth through your panties, the lock of hair falling in her face. All excellent. That's really just the kind of detail that gets me off, making it so I can see what's happening in my mind's eye.

You asked about errors hitting us in the eye. Well, the one that hurt the most was when someone's "damn[sic] burst" and someplace where there were 2 commas separated by a space.

Overall I would say it's good. I'd like to see more paragraphs. I'd also like to see more believable sex, not in the lesbian scene, but in the first scene with the girl-switching.

Now I'll go read the other reviews.

Best

---dr.M.