Discussion: LilyMelb

[KillerMuffin]

Lily is a fabulous writer who dropped in and gave us some really great feedback this week. I hope she sticks around. Let's show her some good old SDC hospitality.

From the Author:

Hi...

I've finally worked up enough courage to volunteer a story for discussion (as a newbie to this forum, I hope I haven't messed up any rules/ettiquette here..!)

The story is "Truth or Dare" in the BDSM category - I found this much more difficult to write than usual, so I'm very interested in other's opinions on how it turned out.

Story link: http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=99467

My queries are as follows -

1) The length. Too long? Did it flow well/was the pacing okay, or did you grow bored/stop reading at any point? If so, where were the places where you began to drift off?

2) I worried in the early paragraphs there was too much 'set up', ie. too much past tense before it got to the current action/present tense. Yet I couldn't find a way around it. Do you agree or disagree? Did it take too long to get to get to the sex/action?

3) Elspeth's character - is the switch she makes at the end too sudden/brutal? I struggled writing the end section most of all and was concerned Elspeth's character became lost in a too sudden adoption of the submissive role. I guess I'm wondering if her journey seems natural/realistic to you?

4) Who do you feel is really in control here? Do you feel that Elspeth is as in control of events as Davy is, or does she totally lose all control completely? Do you get the impression at the end that this is still a temporary game where such roles will be forgotten by morning (or whenever), or that more premament, ongoing power/control relationships were established?

5) Most importantly - is it sexy???!!

Thanks in advance for any feedback on these questions, or anything which struck you at all - I tossed and turned about this one for a long while, so anything you can give me is definitely appreciated!

Ta... Lily

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Lily,

This is a hard story for me to critique. Therefore, please take everything I’m about to say with a truckload of salt. IMHO, the story is WAY too long and might have done better in Novels/Novella. That, plus the lack of any sex until the second page probably dooms it to a low score. That's a shame, because it’s easy to see the time and effort you put into this story.

For me, the set-up was not only too long, it contained too little info that would have let me relate to the characters, such as: appearance, motivation for playing/not stopping, plus time and setting. Even worse, the opening is all narrative “tell” with no “show” and no dialogue until the next to last paragraph of the first page.

There were other problems. The word “had” showed up way too many times, IMHO. it’s a good idea to limit the use of “had” as much as possible when working in the past tense. Here’s the last sentence of paragraph three, “But she had picked out truth and he had directly asked and she had had no choice but to tell, that was the game, after all.”

IMHO, three of those four “had’s” could easily be omitted while maintaining the current form of the sentence. “But she picked out truth and then he directly asked and she had no choice but to tell…,”

Another problem MAY have been POV shifts. This is a tricky area but it is vital. In the beginning (read that before somewhere) the story appears to be in limited third person and we see the story through the eyes of Elspeth. But later, we’re given the thoughts of the other two characters. That’s not wrong, if you intended to use omniscient third person. For what it’s worth, I’d have stuck to telling the story strictly from Elspeth’s perspective.

Please remember, all this is strictly, in my humble opinion (IMHO). I admire the amount of work you put in on this story. Even if I’m right about some the story’s flaws (unlikely, but possible) they are the type of things which can be corrected with a little work on the nuts and bolts of writing fiction along with practice.

Hope some of this helps. Answers to your questions are below.

Rumple Foreskin

--

1) The length. Too long? YES
1b) Did it flow well/ YES
1c) was the pacing okay, NO, IMHO, IT WAS SLOW
1d) or did you grow bored/stop reading at any point? YES
1e) If so, where were the places where you began to drift off? PAGE ONE

2) I worried in the early paragraphs there was too much 'set up', ie. too much past tense before it got to the current action/present tense. Yet I couldn't find a way around it. Do you agree or disagree? THERE WAS TOO MUCH “SET UP” BUT TOO LITTLE INFO ABOUT THE CHARACTER’S APPEARANCE, THE REASON THEY’RE PLAYING, THE TIME, OR THE SETTING. THIS MADE IT HARD TO RELATE TO THEM.
2b) Did it take too long to get to get to the sex/action? YES

3) Elspeth's character - is the switch she makes at the end too sudden/brutal? NO
3b) I struggled writing the end section most of all and was concerned Elspeth's character became lost in a too sudden adoption of the submissive role. IT DID – BUT THAT’S HARD TO AVOID.
3c) I guess I'm wondering if her journey seems natural/realistic to you? NO, BUT I’M NOT INTO BDSM AND SINCE I WAS NEVER SURE WHY SHE WAS PLAYING, I’M NOT CERTAIN WHY SHE CONTINUED.

4) Who do you feel is really in control here? DAVY, I SUPPOSE
4b) Do you feel that Elspeth is as in control of events as Davy is, NO
4c) or does she totally lose all control completely? APPARENTLY, BUT SINCE IT WAS VOLUNTARY, I SUPPOSE SHE REALLY DIDN’T.
4d) Do you get the impression at the end that this is still a temporary game where such roles will be forgotten by morning (or whenever), or that more premament, ongoing power/control relationships were established? PERMANENT

5) Most importantly - is it sexy???!! NO, BUT AGAIN, THIS GENRE ISN’T “MY THING”

 

[LilyMelb]

Hi Rumple,

Thanks for the critique; I appreciate all the effort you go to for these - and don't worry, I keep piles of salt out the back for just this sort of thing..!

I take your point with the length/pacing issues you had with this one. One of my problems is actually adjusting to the format of the website - it's makes a difference whether a peice is read in hardcopy, on screen in a wordprocessor, or in this case, in the format it is presented on literotica.

Which is not to blame the presentation format of the site for my problems of length and pacing! Rather, I need to keep more in mind the format in which the story will be presented/physically read, especially as this is the only place I intend to present erotic writing. Kind of bypassed the first rule of writing school with this one - focus on the target audience and how will they be reading it!

As for some of your other points - I'm not sure I actually agree there are point of view shifts in this one. What emotions that are read in Davy or Brett are those seen and judged through Elspeth's eyes. That is, their reactions are filtered through her point of view/reading of the situation. Or at least, that's the intention - I might just go back and have another look through, following your comments, I think!

The no 'show' all 'tell' in the first paragraphs, however, I totally agree with - I think that's what was worried about in regards to too much set up. Take your point on that completely.

Finally, in regards to the character movitivation, I was playing a little with the BDSM psychology and the complexities of power and control in such games, which are never quite so simple when you have at least one participant who wants to be dominated.

Elspeth is enjoying herself - she knows what is turning her on, she deliberately pushes for it and in the end she gets exactly what she wants, (there's even a possible reading of her manipulating Davy into it; he, though, being just as willing.) And part of what she enjoys so much is the appearance/illusion of losing control (and it is always illusion, but that's an entire other debate.)

That's where my questions on who is really in control came from - it's not written with any definitive right/wrong reading in mind of course, I was simply interested in the various and differing ways it might be read.

I've had a couple of good responses from those into BDSM as to understanding the motivation and psychology of these characters, so I was very interested to read your response, as one not into BDSM and who subsequently found it far too opaque. That's something I'm going to have to keep in mind for the future, I think...

Once again - thanks for your time and effort, it's very appreciated!!

Ta... Lily

 

[Madame Manga]

I agree with RF about the sustained past perfect tense. It puts the whole thing at a remove, and became harder and harder to read as I went on. I would probably answer all your questions the same way he did if I had been able to finish the story--I couldn't get past the brick wall of the intro and gave up at the end of the first page when I saw how long it was.

Why not tell it from the beginning in simple past and with dialogue? Sometimes there might be good reasons for writing long passages of 'had been', but IMO they had better be compelling ones to make up for the inherent awkwardness and distance. In erotica, I think those reasons would be rare.

Your style is an interesting one. It has a definite voice, restrained but detailed and tense. There is an atmosphere of matter-of-fact decadence that reminds me of The Story of O. (Not my favorite erotic novel by a long chalk, but certainly a good style for study. I read it in translation, natch.)

The voice kept me going for a while, but the long, unusually punctuated sentences often take a couple of reads to make out. Some of what at first appeared to be errors turned out not to be--these are not so much grammar problems as other more subtle ones that get in the way of clarity. But there are run-ons and comma splices throughout, with many superfluous words. This makes things sound headlong, overdense and breathless to the extent that I repeatedly tripped over the syntax. Breaking complex sentences in two or in some cases conjoining the clauses with semicolons or dashes may help.

I noticed a number of typos: 'hetro' for 'hetero', 'subtley' for 'subtlety' and so on.

A few sentences edited for clarity and conciseness:

Brett's words had registered with her, for all she had been reluctant to acknowledge much beyond the feel of Davy's mouth deliberately rough against her own, his hands gripping hard around her upper arms so that the next day there would be bruises there, the imprints of his fingers.

Brett's words registered with her although she was reluctant to acknowledge much beyond the feel of Davy's mouth deliberately rough against her own; his hands gripped so hard around her upper arms that he left her with the bruising imprints of his fingers.

I am not sure at this point whether she is looking at her arms the next day and seeing bruises, or if she only figures that is going to happen in the future.

He was not going to allow her to break off that kiss until he was good and ready and he chose the moment to do so, for not a second later he broke away himself anyway, with one of his typical laughs.

He was not going to allow her to end that kiss until he chose the moment. Not a second later, he broke away with his typical laugh.

Brett's fantasies, of course, had been all about men and what he liked to do with them and Davy, for all he had long known his best friend's sexual orientation, still got uncomfortable when hearing any of the details.

Brett's fantasies, of course, were all about men and what he liked to do with them. Long familiarity with his best friend's sexual orientation didn't save Davy from discomfort with the details.

I'm not sure I got to any of the meat of this story in what I was able to read. It shows some promise of an interesting tale, but not enough of the good stuff is out in front for me to tell. It's a very long story for Lit, and probably needs drastic editing. Try taking it down to three pages or less if you can--and I know that sounds cruelly truncated. But that might force you to cut to the chase and use a more efficient storytelling style to draw the reader in.

MM

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Okay, having just made my way through the first page and looked at another, and having not looked at the other reviews, here's my half-baked impression:

Dense.

Very, very dense.

My eye cast about for some white space, a place to rest, to draw breath, to relax and digest a little bit, to serve as a sign that I was getting somewhere. But the prose just kept on coming.

I went to a random page in the story: same thing. Another page: again the same stolid, fist-sized paragraphs. No dialogue, no respite.

What I read before I felt too oppressed was good, there's no doubt about that. She knows how to write, but from what I saw it was way too much of the same thing in terms of style and pacing. I missed any sort of variation in rhythm, in focus, in mood, but as I say, after a while I just scanned and so I might have missed just these things.

Surely there must have been some dialog in there? Some moaning and groaning? A chance to breath? A 2- or 3-line paragraph? Really. The way it is now, it just seems brutal, unrelenting.

I'll try and go back and give it another go. As I've said time and again, I personally have a lot of trouble reading off a screen anyhow. It's not fun for me, no matter what I'm reading. It's not like paper. Plus the lit format tends to make evberything look like stacks of blocks anyhow. So I don't know how legitimate or fair ity it is for me to crituque something based on the sample I read. Still, the fact that I was put off by the sheer density of the piece (and by the length. This is a very long piece to critique) must mean something.

---dr.M.

 

[the_bragis]

G’day Lily,

You know it’s kind of interesting to me that you asked if your story is ‘too long’. I’ve come across stories on this site, that were just on the minimum 1,500 words required, that were too long for me. I've also read stories that much longer than yours and I was left wanting more.

The main problem I see (excuse the pun) with posting a piece like this on Literotica is it’s just simply not as easy to read off a computer screen as it is the page of a book. Your eyes get tied after a five minutes, and you want to rub them and look away. Well mine do anyway.

Another ‘problem’ I think you may have, and really it’s already be addressed here but just more politely, is most readers who come to this site want a quick fix of titillation. An introduction is essential to any story, but it’s probably just as important to hook the reader as soon as possible. In an erotic story sex is usually the hook. If you don’t give them sex in the first five minutes they quickly get bored and back click.

Like most people, I like a story balanced with descriptions and dialog throughout. I like lots of it too, it makes me feel close to the characters, like I’m right there watching from behind a curtain or slightly open door. Terrible aren’t I? I guess it’s like when you meet someone for the first time, you see that person, but it’s not until you speak with them that you really get to know what they’re really about.

Personally I don’t have problem with gays, but I have a funny feeling that the dirty old man who opens this story looking for some hot and nasty sex may get a nasty little surprise himself when he begins reading about Brett and Davy’s little games. It mightn’t be a bad idea to include a little ‘warning’ at the start. Again that’s just my opinion.

To answer a couple of your quesitons, and this is just my slant on things. Yes, Elspeth's switch to submissive did seen too quick and too brutal. I mean it all happened in a matter of hours didn't it? Maybe it was just a game for the the evening, but I don't think she would have endured a hard slap across the face in those circumstances. I don' t think so. I really think that kind of 'play' would evolve over month or even years of 'practice'. I'm not a huge fan of that anyway, so I suppose I shouldn't really comment - to me the face is off limits. Yes, her journey did seem a little unnatual, no seduction, no slow sexing sinking into the darkness of it, just wam bam... she's there!

A few other things I noted as I read were:

His jaw clenched angrily, annoyed not only by her insistence, but by her elaborate wording, her refusal to let him escape from the detail of what he had heard. Without saying anything, he nodded, just the once. A sharp, quick movement, easily missed if you weren't looking for it.

You have some amazing detail, but some it just seems, well to me anyway, more than is perhaps needed. Take the above, the clenched jaw indicates annoyance. I know from reading the previous paragraph she is insisting on being told everything. A clenched jaw and a quick nod would have told me the same thing in fewer words. People who know a whole lot more about writing than I ever will always say, “write you story then check it and cull for unnecessary words.” When I first read that especially in regard to something I had written, I thought, that just plain dumb, the readers needs all that information, but they don’t, and it was good advice. To be honest I did find myself skimming over some of the passages.

"Cut it out, Elspeth..." Davy tried to sound exasperated, but he ended up only sounding uneasy, edgy, out of his depth. Her grin grew nasty.
Someone here is going to jump on me and tell me I am wrong here, but I think you need to watch for funny little this like this. I think, and repeat, I think and I’m not 100% certain, that you need ‘Her grin grew nasty’ as a new paragraph since you are switching from him to her. I noted this a few times, so if I’m wrong I apologize in advance for mentioning it. It probably sounds super nit picky, but that’s what this forum is all about isn’t it?

"… my lord …"

Again this is just me. I know submissives say it, but it just sounds funny to me, like I’m back in Sunday school. Mmm… that might make an interesting survey thread in the bdsm forum. Which do you prefer? My lord, master, or just plain old sir?

Ok, on the up side, it’s different and intriguing. You’ve obviously put a lot of time, sweat, tears into this one, and it shows. You had some delicious descriptions of the sex acts and it wasn't hard to follow who was dong who, which is not always the case in these group sex scenes. I guess this could be the beginning of a whole series of these stories couldn’t it?

I wish you well with your future writing.

Have a great day.

Alex(fem).

 

[LilyMelb]

Hehe... I have caused a bit of tut-tutting with this one. Hmmm, I think next time I might just keep to the short and simple for discussions, saves my ego that way...!

That's the reason I posted this one for discussion, though - it was more dense than other short (sic) erotic fiction I've written, and had more problems, so I was interested in other's reactions to it.

Thanks to everyone who's reviewed, epsecially those who hated it (everyone? sorry, now I'm just being facetious); I know it takes time and effort to review and if you're not enjoying the story even more so. But I really do appreciate all comments and will take them all on board for the future.

I won't be revising this one... I tend to write erotic fiction as a once off, post it up and let it go. It's kind of the light relief from writing longer work (which is probably where all the issues on length come in; just can't write short.) But all comments and criticisms help immensely with new pieces, so it is all carefully listened to, I promise..

Anyway, thanks all.... Lily

 

[Erotic Author]

This is purely from a casual reader's perspective.

I thought the story was extremely long. Honestly, if I wasn't going to be discussing it here, I would have taken a pass on it. Only because of the length and not the quality of your work. Someone previously mentioned that this might belong in novels and novellas and I'm inclined to agree.

Your main character doesn't have a name until the end of the first page. IMHO, I thought since I have been introduced to the other character's names, it is odd that I don't know hers.

Your story was very detailed and painted a pretty clear picture, especially once there was dialogue. Once I got past the first page, the flow was better.

Keep up the good work.