Discussion: Dungeons & Dragons 4th edition.

[Ravenloft]

Okay, so, how does everyone feel about 4th ed so far?

I've looked through it, and aside from DDI *D&D Insider* being a total and I mean TOTAL let down ATM, the only real thing I would like see changed is that you don't have to swap out old exploits for new ones, and only allow four encounter and daily power uses in the designated segments of time, seven utils max per an encounter as well.

I would automatically allow exploits which have obvious upgrades to take the place of older, weaker ones as well. Say you have a 1[w] + whatever damage as well as daze effect, you should automatically be able to replace that with the 3[w] + whatev and stun, since it is obviously related to the first.

 

[Abraxas Winterlight]

what language were you speaking??

 

[thewhiteone]

I've only skimmed the preview of the classes and races, and said "F*** this piece of shit."

Seems to be the general consensus around me. Most would love to do a bit more than exchange unpleasant words with the creators of 4th Ed.

 

[Ravenloft]

Abraxis, its Nerdiental, Dorkenese to be more precise. Although it shares much in common with Geekish, Dorkenese is a little more... Elegant.

Hey Whitey. It would seem that D&D is turning, quite litterally, into a table top game of WoW. LOL!

You know, I was of the same mind set initially, thinking the whole thing would be crap, and there is a fair portion that I disagree with in fourth ed, but I can see some good in it as well. Guess i'm a little more open minded and forgiving than most.

 

[Abraxas Winterlight]

screw it all
I still have all my 2nd edition books!

 

[Ravenloft]

What, don't you like whoresbro? LOL!

I have quite a few of my old 2nd ed books too, but mostly the old ravenloft stuff.

And you know how players run screaming from Ravenloft. "What do you mean my character can't escape the mists?!" Pussy's...

 

[Abraxas Winterlight]

Ravenloft is Chuthulu light

 

[Ravenloft]

Mmm, light in the aspect that Ravenloft uses cookie cutter stamp outs of all the classic monsters, I would agree, but other than being a horror setting, I don't see much of a similarity. Ravenloft is predominately, still medieval, to gothic londonesque horror, and cthulhu is mostly more modern feeling, where archaic evil dwells.

Oh, and the new 4th ed lingo I posted above breaks down to mean 3 times [current weapon] plus a relevant ability modifier with a damage type, like radiant or necrotic and any special effects, like if you throw sand in their eyes, they will be blinded for a few turns.

 

[Abraxas Winterlight]

yeah, second edition

 

[misturbond]

I understand that there were areas of the game that needed to be changed, but the changed the entire thing. I started on D&D, then AD&D, so when 3rd came out I was lost. I don't know anything about 4th yet, but I'm thinking there's no hope for me coz third threw me. One thing I give kudos for is they got rid of the THACO. The one who came up with that needs to be publicly flogged.

Just my two.

 

[cats]

I gamed a fair deal in 3.5 and some 3.0 and have run 4.0 twice now.

I must say other then character creation this version of DnD is incredibly simple to learn, and any one of any age can simply come in and learn quickly. If that was their goal they did an awsome job.

That being said I like 3.5 more. The 4.0 game play seems to be lacking details, probably because all character classes are essentially the same. They get 3 advantages from class, of which the warlock and ranger share 2, and then comes feat progression at the same rate and power progression at the same rate, where damage is all very much the same.

On top of that, while I am happy I can now multiclass at level 1 there is absolutely no reason to multiclass. To fully multiclass one spends a feat at first level and gains a skill and some weaken version of a class power, then they spend 3 more feats of the 5 gained before level ten to switch an existing power for a power in another class, naturally since powers are roughly equal to each other their is a slight loss in power from losing feats. After that comes the real kicker, the loss of the paragon path, (essentially a prestige class,) the paragon paths grant 3 abilities and 3 powers, and the multiclassed character simply gains 3 powers in place of the powers gained from the paragon path. The result is a loss of 4 feats and 3 paragon path abilities.

 

[thewhiteone]

Hey Raven, actually I heard they took elements from Magic the Gathering to make it.

What really made me throw my hands up in disgust was that now apparently (from the little I read) "all races are created equal." Aassimars, Tieflings, Drow... at first level! Then they have to spend feats to get stuff they are supposed to have been born with and learned growing up.

That and now everyone has limited healing powers.

 

[cats]

First off I see no magic tg influence. But I do suspect the rules work really well with the minitures game but I don't play it so have no clue.

Every one now has healing is a gross exageration. Basically the name of the ability is healing surges its based on con, it states the character can heal themselves ten or so times in a day, most common use of a healing surge is drinking a potion. Outside that a non dwarf can spend a full round action to gain back some hp once per fight (Costing a healing surge). So while yes every one can heal its so limited so limited people do it at when they have no other choice.

As for races drow are still better then elves, despite claims of balance. They balanced the races by saying no were-wolves in the party, and no trolls either. (Note some how Liches are still okay and effectively have a level adjustment, funny Monster Manual rules. They could expand the lich and add other races later, but it'll be hard to justify.)

Racial feats were in 3rd edition and here they behave the same. Only Dwarves don't get a bonus to dodge against giants any more, not that I ever had a dwarf face a giant now that I think about it. Instead they can get a racial feat that does the same thing except for all creatures large and larger, which would be very odd not to see in a campaign.

Really most of the Hate to 4th edition is on very poor grounds, but yes there things to hate just no one seems to care.

They redid two weapon fighting. Now the feat grants +1 damage while fighting with two weapons and nothing else, meaning no extra attacks. Unless one is a ranger there is no reason to ever get it.

 

[thewhiteone]

From what I've been told, one of 4th Edition's creators posted on the D&D website that they did take some elements from MTG, such as making every everything attack rolls. The article was removed 3 days later.

 

[Ravenloft]

*Headlock noogies Cats.* I was hoping you'd show up, dude! If anyone had something decent to say about 4th ed, I expected you would. LOL!

While I can see a remote semblance to some aspects of M:TG, its not so much that the game is defined by those traits. Essentially every spell/power, or special attack adds one of your character's ability mods into the effect in some way or another. Like, for instance, if you play a rogue and select to be an artful dodger, then you get several powers that apply your dex mod to movement, where as if you were NOT a dodger, you would only get a set number...

Cats, the one thing that did chap my ass was how saves work now... d20, 10 and up succeeds, below fails? And apparently the only ones who get ANY modifier to those kinds of roles are HUMANS?! Its simple and clean, yes, but where's the flavor? LOL!

Being used to having your attack roll modifiers go up based on your level, it also feels a bit odd that no one increases in the new edition, unless they pick a feat to do so.

Picking feats, its neat, makes you feel alot more in control of your character, but there are just some things that should simply increase in power without having to dedicate a feat to it, IE: multiple attacks.

 

[cats]

Before I forget again. Raven why is this stikied?

I've played magic and I've played 4th edition and I simply don't see the similarities, but all my magic stuff is several years old. But from my perspective the article was removed because it was wrong and not for any other reason. As for everything being attack rolls, I think you lost me there.



In terms of feats, and most other items, I feel power was grossly slashed from 3rd edition. Now this could be because I joined 3rd edition a little before 3.5 and as a result had many resources availible to make characters from the get go and now I have little to work with, but I miss metamagic feats, two weapon fighting, metalic dragons, and 4 of the 9 alignments. Further more magic items seem to be very lacking in potency.

Minor plus, it takes only one feat to make any and every magic item, clerics and wizards start with that feat, and it has many other uses besides item creation.

 

[Abraxas Winterlight]

i'm still going with second edition

 

[thewhiteone]

I never read the article, but apparently two people I play Magic and D&D with did. And like I've said, I only skimmed the preview book of the Races and Classes. Everything else I only have to go on what I've heard.

I joined D&D about the same time as you then.

I never did under stand why there where so may Item Creation feats. To me, there should be three: One for scrolls, staffs, and wands. One for Potions. And one for every thing else.

Or at least Rings should have been merged with Wondrous Items. I mean... all other jewelry and clothing are Wondrous Items, why should Rings be separate?

 

[Ravenloft]

It's stickied cause I want it stickied for a few days, Cats. Why? Do you have a problem talking about D&D or something?

Actually, I think the reason people think that M:TG has had an influence on D&D 4 ed might be in how all the exploits are presented. Seriously, if you take a minute to consider how each and every attack, power, what have you is presented, its like having a hand of magic card. In fact, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they end up marketing Exploit cards, so you can keep your current exploits in a handy, easy to manage form. "I use cleave, so its tapped for the rest of the encounter. Encounter's over, so I get to untap it."

Can you see the M:TG reference now, Cats?

Oh yeah, there is a HUGE power decrease from third to fourth editions. But what they lose in damage codes, I think they have made up for in the stratagy department. The ability to shift and manipulate friend and foe alike on the field of battle is interesting.

Why DO rings get their own item catagory?! I blame Lord of the Rings!

 

[cats]

Its got to be LOTR, it must I mean forge ring.

Yes I have a problem with stikies, unless Pooh or Ambro made it a sticky. I would also be fine with Arc or khad sticking, or Hy, and anything I sticky ofcoarse; but most of thats mute. Really most stickies I'd be fine with as long as its not done by some one whos lit name begins with the letter R, and contains a v and has a word for attic in it some where.

I see the magic reference now.

I think the power drop would be fine with me, if the powers didn't seem so cookie cutter. Basically they expanded all non class features of a character and then made the classes hugely long dull reads with little difference between the classes.

 

[Ravenloft]

Careful now Cats, or I might just sticky you.

Well, of course the class write ups are long and dull, after all, the majority of it is taken up with powers you don't get to pick right away. I skimmed through but didn't read every single one in detail, there's really no need to until a pc picks them...

And the prospect of several more volumes of the phb, as long as all they do is expand the pool of playable races and classes, and don't constantly reiterate the basic information might be cool. Although, I think they would serve themselves a little better if they called these books races of whatever, or complete guide to whatever... Not the PHB vol 2... That title makes a few people I know nervous that the rules are likely to be changed constantly.

 

[cats]

Well to sum up my feelings, I am bothered that this set up is power dominated and not ability dominated like the previous editions.

In a strange way it is as if the game has been reduced to really weak spells. In 4th the only reason to do a basic attack is the attack of opportunity.

 

[PandaPixie]

The thing that really throws me about 4.0 is the fact that Gnomes are a monster class now.

WTF?! That just makes me wonder what kind of crack they're on and the same with having Tieflings and Drow as base level races

It just throws me completely for a loop.

I'm sticking with 3.5

 

[cats]

If you lift up the Monster Manual for 3.5 you'll find it is heaver then the PHB or the DMG. If you pick up the 4.0 PHB it is significantly heavier then the DMG or the MM. This is because things were reorganized, essentially they wanted one to be able to play from the PHB alone and foolishly stuck to much in it, ( especially considering that each class now takes up close to ten pages.)

The Gnome is presented as a player option in the monster manual, sadly gnomes are not popular enough to hold weight in the players handbook. I must say this is also the first edition where would call the gnome a competitive choice, they are flat out the best rouges in my mind and a strong choice for all classes but the warlock which has class features similar to the gnomes race features.

Also Tieflings are given a stronger location in the DnD cosmology, having control of half the world opposite of the dragon born. Both of those races are likely in the PHB because they ruled the world before the humans built their great empire.

 

[Ravenloft]

Really, in the end, in a sick sort of way, fourth edition is just Whoresbro giving in to players demands, in the most expensive way possible, granted. Its all about money, kiddies, and how to get as much of ours as they can. It has been since the campaign setting explosion of the 80's. I mean, how many of us were able to focus on more than one or two settings at a time?

Lets see... Cats, help me here if I miss any? But we had...

Meztica (Reminder by Abrax)
Spelljammers (Cred to Abrax)
Red Steel
Birthrights
Dragonlance
Al Quadim
Kara Tur
Forgotten Realms
Planescape
Greyhawk
Darksun
(And last but far from least. *Ego showing*)
Ravenloft

Now, how in the HELL were we expected to follow ALL of that? Even with somewhat more reasonable pricing... 10-20 bucks back in the day for a book, not this 35-100 shit. Yes, 100+ for those fucking deluxe leather bound copies. Deluxe editions should only be for DVD's, kay? Not fucking D&D books!!! Gah!