Digital Books Survivor Rights

[jaF0]

PUNK's thread reminded me of something I've seen discussed with no apparent clear answer.

Where is the world as far as survivor's rights to digital content? Generally what I see is that there are none. It's all about that license to use bit and you never really own them, so you can't transfer them during or after your life. I've even seen discussion of Probate law that disallows inheriting them.

Have laws not caught up with this? Or have publishers gotten ahead of the curve by manipulating those laws to restrict transfers?

 

[oggbashan]

If you buy digital books you never really own them.

All you have is a personal licence to read them on one device, or perhaps several if the providers allow that.

If your device dies? Your e-books do too.

Unless, like me, you have bought masses of public domain books on CDs. I can load them on to any device repeatedly.

 

[jaF0]

But how would the provider even know you died? A family member could simply be left the device and login details.

If your device dies while you're still alive, you can transfer content to a new device. So why couldn't a family member do that?

 

[oggbashan]

But how would the provider even know you died? A family member could simply be left the device and login details.

If your device dies while you're still alive, you can transfer content to a new device. So why couldn't a family member do that?

Transferring content? That depends on the provider. Some don't allow it without an additional fee.

Reading the small print terms and conditions on downloading e-books is enough to make anyone stay with real printed books.

 

[Alice_Rosaleen]

If your device dies? Your e-books do too.

No, they're still in your cloud/online account.
And if you've downloaded the content, you can read it offline, so the existence of the e-book distributor wouldn't matter either, if you own the licence (which you get when you purchase the book)

 

[KeithD]

The OP specifies "rights." I believe rights to e-book purchases are not transferable to anyone but a single reader. It probably says that in the fine print where you, technically, rented the right to download one copy. The authors on the board should want it that way.

 

[LWulf]

But how would the provider even know you died? A family member could simply be left the device and login details.

If your device dies while you're still alive, you can transfer content to a new device. So why couldn't a family member do that?

There's the letter of the law, and the basis (or spirit) of the law. what the letter of the law wants is for you to not distribute the copy you have to multiple people. The basis of the law, is such that, as long as there is only one copy, and the copy doesn't change hands too quickly, and often, then no crime has been committed; such as in the case of your example of a family member dying and someone else obtaining it. Understand, by the letter of the law, it's still illegal for the inheriting family member to have it, but as you say "how would the provider know?" The trick is, they wouldn't and therefore, it circumnavigates the law. However, the longer it is in existence, the greater the chance someone will find out, and thereby the provider might find out. In such an instance, and there isn't much precedent for it, the provider would simply destroy the inherited "copy." However, it depends on how much red-ass the provider has.

However, when the one copy "dies" whether by accident, or on purpose, then all ownership dies with it. This is why on all movies (and I'm paraphrasing), the blurb "duplicating, even without intent to distribute, is against the law." In other words, you can't make a copy for yourself so if/when the original gets trashed, you have something remaining.
My point being, when the inheriting family member's "copy" dies, then it's gone.

In effect, all (physical) books have a similar "no distribution" law, and yet libraries are chock full of books they have "inherited," let alone some books get bid on at auctions for being "first editions." Some wealthy people have libraries in their possession that are inherited books, or purchased estate sales, books.

 

[Hypoxia]

Paying for an ebook download is not RTO (rent-to-own) but merely rent with no rights of ownership, just as signing a rental agreement on an apartment limits your use and transference of that property. It's rented to you, not your little sister, unless she's written into it. And no Dobermans allowed.

Vast amounts of literature is available for free download as TXTs or PDFs or MOBIs or whatever. Burn those to CD for storage. Or if you want a current bestseller, wait a few months and you can get a physical copy at a thrift shop or yard sale for under a buck.

 

[oggbashan]

...

In effect, all (physical) books have a similar "no distribution" law, and yet libraries are chock full of books they have "inherited," let alone some books get bid on at auctions for being "first editions." Some wealthy people have libraries in their possession that are inherited books, or purchased estate sales, books.

Only all MODERN physical books.

Older books didn't have that "no distribution" restriction. They were expected to last for centuries. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries some imprints were intended as disposable books for reading on a train journey, for example, and then to be thrown away. There was a real distinction between the cheap print, the mid-price book, and the de luxe edition to be kept in the family library. The paper used for the cheap print, and often the mid-price printing too, was too acid. The pages could turn brown and start to break up after a decade or so. The full price or de luxe editions were intended to remain permanently readable.

Some paperbacks from the 1970s onwards had a restriction 'only with the original cover' to stop reselling of copies sent for pulping. That was an innovation.

Originally books were sold with a paper cover for the purchaser to have it bound to their own taste (or with their coat of arms!). In the late 18th and early 19th centuries publishers started putting their own hardback covers on books. A first edition of that age is more valuable with the publisher's boards than with a local bookbinder's leather. Many were sold as three-volume works that could be bound as a single book or in the three parts.

Most Charles Dickens novels were sold as part works. The buyer was expected to buy the later hard covered copy if they wanted to keep the book. Some cheapskates had the part works bound into a single volume. But the number and variety of Dickens editions became ridiculous. The original Chapman and Hall editions have value. The Daily Express versions, or Heron Books in fake plastic leather, are only for reading, not to keep.

But if you buy a real book by the original publisher it should still last to pass down several generations.

The Book Club version might last one generation because, again, the paper is cheaper and degrades.

 

[LWulf]

Only all MODERN physical books.

...

Uh... okay, interesting factoids ((which I basically already knew) and I would quibble on when redistribution laws came into effect in which country), but bringing it back to basics, modern libraries get modern physical books, donated to them, which circumnavigates the modern 'no redistribution' laws. As hypoxia mentioned, there are dollar book stores that get (either by "lot" purchase, or donated) modern books which, they in turn, sell for a dollar.

The dollar book store, and libraries, capitalize on what is, by the letter of the law, an illegality.

 

[KeithD]

Let's just keep straight in the discussion that there's a difference between what we have the "rights" to do with books in various mediums and what people actually do. Just because you have the capability of doing it and its widely done doesn't mean you have the legal "right" to do it. It means you and others have chosen to circumvent legal rights because you are able to do it and it's widely done.

 

[Alice_Rosaleen]

I know several librarians that work in purchasing and they have to pay for books for legal purposes. They can sell donated books, but not circulate them. At least in the U.S.

 

[LWulf]

I know several librarians that work in purchasing and they have to pay for books for legal purposes. They can sell donated books, but not circulate them. At least in the U.S.

I've seen dollar book stores that advertise "we buy and sell." I've seen one or two libraries that had donated books on their shelves. How often do publishers do audits of libraries to verify that all books distributed; were legally paid for?

I've seen libraries that have a corner where they have a "take a copy/leave a copy."

As Keith mentioned, people get away with what they can. but, to me, that was the point of what the OP was asking "how would the provider know?" That's why I said, in most cases, if/when the provider found out, most likely all they would do is destroy the copy. By the letter of the law, it's illegal, but if it is inherited (and if it's the only copy found in possession), the provider usually would not file for punitive damages.

 

[Alice_Rosaleen]

I've seen dollar book stores that advertise "we buy and sell." I've seen one or two libraries that had donated books on their shelves. How often do publishers do audits of libraries to verify that all books distributed; were legally paid for?

I've seen libraries that have a corner where they have a "take a copy/leave a copy."

As Keith mentioned, people get away with what they can. but, to me, that was the point of what the OP was asking "how would the provider know?" That's why I said, in most cases, if/when the provider found out, most likely all they would do is destroy the copy. By the letter of the law, it's illegal, but if it is inherited (and if it's the only copy found in possession), the provider usually would not file for punitive damages.

I'm just referring to books/media they're allowed to circulate. Every so often, a public library purchases from publishers and vendors, usually in bulk, and every book in circulation has an accompanying purchase record (including price) in their database. Not sure how e-books work, but I do know they can only lend a certain number of copies of a specific e-book at a time, not a limitless supply.

This whole question makes me wonder what happens to all of your software license agreements when you're gone too. I suppose the most legally respectable thing to do when a loved one dies is cancel all of their accounts and delete their digital content. And perhaps the most legally sneaky thing to do would be to make copies while you're alive (which you can technically even do of most e-books) and allow your loved ones to decide if those now count as tangible goods.

 

[KeithD]

As Keith mentioned, people get away with what they can. but, to me, that was the point of what the OP was asking "how would the provider know?" That's why I said, in most cases, if/when the provider found out, most likely all they would do is destroy the copy. By the letter of the law, it's illegal, but if it is inherited (and if it's the only copy found in possession), the provider usually would not file for punitive damages.

The OP invoked the word "rights" in the thread title. It's so easy for folks to think that "everyone does it" and "I can do it without getting caught" negate the legal protection of "rights" to the owner of the material. They don't. We're on the AH here--authors' hangout. Authors/owners should be the last ones to accept "everyone does it and can get away with it" as negating their legal rights to control the material, whether or not they physically can do so (or they themselves do so with what others own).

 

[SimonDoom]

In effect, all (physical) books have a similar "no distribution" law, and yet libraries are chock full of books they have "inherited," let alone some books get bid on at auctions for being "first editions." Some wealthy people have libraries in their possession that are inherited books, or purchased estate sales, books.

This isn't entirely true. If I lawfully buy a book from someone, the "first sale" doctrine applies, meaning the copyright owner's right in the specific material copy that I bought is exhausted. I am free to resell the book, or to rent it to someone, or to pass it to my heirs. Or I can burn it.

I'm not free to distribute copies of it, but I have rights in the physical thing itself.

In the case of many first editions, of course, the copyright has expired and isn't an issue anymore. I can do anything with the book at that point, including things covered by copyright.

 

[SimonDoom]

The dollar book store, and libraries, capitalize on what is, by the letter of the law, an illegality.

Not so. Under the first sale doctrine, which has been part of US copyright law since 1908 and continues to be part of American copyright law (section 109(a)), once the book has been lawfully sold it may be lawfully sold without restriction after that. If a library acquires a book that was subject at some point to a lawful sale, it's free to loan out the book to library patrons without restriction.

 

[Hypoxia]

I'm totally uninformed but here goes. We should distinguish between ownership rights of the contents versus the package.

The copyright holder owns the contents and somewhat controls restrictions on the package. Do I own the package of a physical book or disc or tape I have acquired? Can I value them for a theft or damage loss claim? How far does the copyright holder's control extend?

Question: A single volume might pass from yard sale to yard sale to thrift shop to yard sale, so who's to track the transactions?

Answer: Soon everything will be chipped and surveillance will be quite ubiquitous. Every item and action will be recorded and archived and taxed. It will almost be painless.

 

[oggbashan]

...

Question: A single volume might pass from yard sale to yard sale to thrift shop to yard sale, so who's to track the transactions?

...

The EU drafted a law on the sale of secondhand and antique goods. All trade vendors would have to be registered. All sales would have to be recorded with verified name and address of the vendor and purchaser. There was a massive campaign by booksellers across Europe to exempt secondhand books from the legislation for sales under a set value.

As a secondhand bookdealer I often acquired books in lots of hundreds or even thousands. If the EU law had been passed unamended I would have to list and record every single book even if they were damaged and only fit for pulping.

 

[Handley_Page]

PUNK's thread reminded me of something I've seen discussed with no apparent clear answer.

Where is the world as far as survivor's rights to digital content? Generally what I see is that there are none. It's all about that license to use bit and you never really own them, so you can't transfer them during or after your life. I've even seen discussion of Probate law that disallows inheriting them.

Have laws not caught up with this? Or have publishers gotten ahead of the curve by manipulating those laws to restrict transfers?

I came to the conclusion that the fee that one pays to the supplier of the book is not for acquisition at all. I think it is a hiring fee.

 

[jaF0]

This thread is about Survivor Rights of Digital Content in the eyes of the courts after death of the person that made the initial acquisition, whether you call it the purchase of the content or a license to use the content.

Matters not if the content is ebooks, movies, games, software or music. And I'm not sure if it matters if the content was initially downloaded, acquired on disk or came preloaded on some device like the OS on a computer.

 

[jaF0]

If a collector of ebooks dies and two or more family members try to claim the content in Probate, what happens to it?


In my limited reading, it seems the court cannot award the content to anyone, but I'm not sure if that applies across the globe.

 

[oggbashan]

This thread is about Survivor Rights of Digital Content in the eyes of the courts after death of the person that made the initial acquisition, whether you call it the purchase of the content or a license to use the content.

Matters not if the content is ebooks, movies, games, software or music. And I'm not sure if it matters if the content was initially downloaded, acquired on disk or came preloaded on some device like the OS on a computer.

What matters is the small print on the supplier's terms and conditions. They aren't all the same.

Take Windows as an example. You get a license to use Windows but Microsoft can and will stop supporting an older version so if you want to stay safe you have to buy a newer version. It doesn't matter that many people don't really need the added functions from Windows XP onwards. That product is obsolete. Your license for Windows XP is now useless.

If ebook suppliers should decide to upgrade and not to support the current standard reading software? Your license is useless.

But if you have your ebooks as .txt files you are probably safe.

Project Gutenberg is every e-reader's friend.

 

[jaF0]

Take Windows as an example. You get a license to use Windows but Microsoft can and will stop supporting an older version so if you want to stay safe you have to buy a newer version. It doesn't matter that many people don't really need the added functions from Windows XP onwards. That product is obsolete. Your license for Windows XP is now useless.

But if you die while you have a current OS and a family member wants the PC, does the current license transfer to them or is it void?

 

[oggbashan]

But if you die while you have a current OS and a family member wants the PC, does the current license transfer to them or is it void?

You would have to read the pages and pages of Microsoft's small print (which they change from time to time). What might be true now could have changed in a year's time.

You probably need legal advice to avoid breaking the terms of your license.

Most of us just don't give a fuck. 'Our' Windows is ours to do what we whatever we want to do. I doubt Microsoft would be concerned about what an individual does with a time-limited product.