Difficult Poems and Found Poems

[Angeline]

The current (June, 2003) print issue of Harper's Magazine (yes, I do go offline on occasion ) has a reprint of a wonderful and wonderfully funny essay by the poet Charles Bernstein. The essay "The Difficult Poem" addresses poems that we have trouble understanding and the various reasons why we do, and offers what I guess is the equivalent of a 12-step program for accepting that we do.

Here's a short excerpt:

Often a poet will ask himself. . .. "Why did my poem turn out like this? Why isn't it completely accessible like the poems of Billy Collins, which never pose any problems for understanding?" ...Like readers of difficult poems, writers of difficult poems must first come to terms with the fact that theirs is a common problem, shared by many other authors. And they must come to terms with the fact that it is not their fault . . .but that some poems just turn out that way.

It's just a great article; read it if you can.

Anywho, the essay also presents some very funny, perceptive "found" poems, some of which are composed (by Hart Seely) of various and sundry statements by U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. A few brief examples:

The Unknown

As we know,
There are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know,
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we don't know
We don't know.

--from a 10/12/02 news briefing


Clarity

I think what you'll find
I think what you'll find, is
Whatever it is we do substantively
There will be near-perfect clarity
As to what it is.

And it will be known,
And it will be known to the Congress,
And it will be known to you,
Probably before we decide it,
But it will be known.

--from an 02/28/03 news briefing

Uh-huh. Thank you, Donald.

Now I don't know about you, but that exercise looks awfully fun to me. Take a piece of prose--it could be something from current events, historic writing, fiction, poetry (we actually tried this once with the poetry spinner here, but I think prose works better), whatever. Create a "Found" poem and post it here. Stretch you imaginative muscles and see what you get!

 

[Rybka]

The current (June, 2003) print issue of Harper's Magazine (yes, I do go offline on occasion ) has a reprint of a wonderful and wonderfully funny essay by the poet Charles Bernstein. The essay "The Difficult Poem" addresses poems that we have trouble understanding and the various reasons why we do, and offers what I guess is the equivalent of a 12-step program for accepting that we do.

Here's a short excerpt:

Often a poet will ask himself. . .. "Why did my poem turn out like this? Why isn't it completely accessible like the poems of Billy Collins, which never pose any problems for nderstanding?" ...Like readers of difficult poems, writers of difficult poems must first come to terms with the fact that theirs is a common problem, shared by many other authors. And they must come to terms with the fact that it is not their fault . . .but that some poems just turn out that way.

It's just a great article; read it if you can.

Anywho, the essay also presents some very funny, perceptive "found" poems, some of which are composed (by Hart Seely) of various and sundry statements by U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. A few brief examples:

The Unknown

As we know,
There are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know,
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we don't know
We don't know.

--from a 10/12/03 news briefing


Clarity

I think what you'll find
I think what you'll find, is
Whatever it is we do substantively
There will be near-perfect clarity
As to what it is.

And it will be known,
And it will be known to the Congress,
And it will be known to you,
Probably before we decide it,
But it will be known.

--from an 02/28/03 news briefing

Uh-huh. Thank you, Donald.

Now I don't know about you, but that exercise looks awfully fun to me. Take a piece of prose--it could be something from current events, historic writing, fiction, poetry (we actually tried this once with the poetry spinner here, but I think prose works better), whatever. Create a "Found" poem and post it here. Stretch you imaginative muscles and see what you get!

(And lets try to do it without potshots at the board or anyone who posts here, hmmmm? If you want to be meanspirited, start your own thread, lol.)

10/12/03? WOW! They sure found that one in a hurry!

Actually I have been thinking of a similar challenge. It would be interesting to take a short prose piece and ask everyone to make it into a poem (as I recently did with "Butterfly Boots").

Regards,                                 Rybka

 

[Angeline]

Rybka, that's right! You have experience in this! (And I take it you saw the issue of Free Press, with the Seely poems?)

Any recommendations?

lol. ok i fixed it. the date would have been perfect with the other poem.

 

[Angeline]

My First Found Poem

Taken, of course, from the Difficult Poems article.

Difficult Poems

Reading poems
is not simple.
Let me be frank.
Difficult poems are
incoherent, meaningless, or hostile.
Come to terms with the fact that
you are often struggling.

Writing poems
is not simple
Why isn't it?
Sometimes a poem
is not saying anything.
Elevated linguistic intensity.
Textual irregularity.
Sensory Overload.

Why me?

Let me be frank.
No difficult poem is ever fulfilling.
After all many authors
are not Billy Collins.

Get a new perspective.

 

[Rybka]

Rybka, that's right! You have experience in this! (And I take it you saw the issue of Free Press, with the Seely poems?)

Any recommendations?

lol. ok i fixed it. the date would have been perfect with the other poem.

The Rumsfeld poetry has been around for some time. A month ago or so the first one was all over cable TV and the internet.

Re prose piece: I haven't found a good enough one yet. That is why I said I have been "thinking" about it.
I want one as good as those that already inspired me to "poetize" (?) them. I wish I could share the originals with you, but they are private e-mail from a good friend.

Regards,                                 Rybka

 

[HomerPindar]

I remember a found poetry thread way back - I think I turned a potato chip pledge of satisfaction in to a poem...

I'll have to look up some of the bubbleheads (talking head just doesn't cut it anymore) and see what works.

HomerPindar

 

[lickmyboot]

Flowers in May

I grabbed the first thing I saw off my bookshelf and randomly opened it up. I think it lends well to this excercise. This comes from "The Healing Herbs: The Ultimate Guide to the Curative Power of Nature's Medicines" by Michael Castleman.

Flowers in May

Hawthorn is a small deciduous tree
with white bark,
extremely hard wood,
sharp thorns, clusters of white,
aromatic flowers and brilliant red fruits

which look like small apples.

In Britain blossooms appear
in May,
hence its other names--
mayblossom, and
mayflower.

Some species prefer full sun.

Others grow well in
partial shade.

 

[WickedEve]

This poem isn't difficult but it is... um... hard.

Spam

get larger nuts and penis,
more pleasure, more satisfaction
Read More Here

"My hard-on is so powerful
I feel like I got a tree trunk
between my legs.
I just started going out
with a super hot girl
and when she saw me naked
the first time
I was the biggest
she's ever seen.

I'm at 8 inches now
and I'm going to keep
going.
Why the hell not?"

 

[HomerPindar]

This poem isn't difficult but it is... um... hard.

Spam

get larger nuts and penis,
more pleasure, more satisfaction
Read More Here

"My hard-on is so powerful
I feel like I got a tree trunk
between my legs.
I just started going out
with a super hot girl
and when she saw me naked
the first time
I was the biggest
she's ever seen.

I'm at 8 inches now
and I'm going to keep
going.
Why the hell not?"

Ok, the compitition is getting a bit stiff...

{{ducking}}
HomerPindar

 

[Angeline]

Taken from the Lincoln's Gettysburg Address:

Freedom

All are created equal.
It is fitting and proper.
All are created equal.

Who struggled here?
Will the world little note
nor long remember
who struggled here?

The unfinished work
is for us the living.
It is fitting for us
to be dedicated
to the unfinished work.

These honored dead
shall not have died in vain

From these honored dead
we highly resolve that we
shall have a new birth of freedom.

These honored dead
shall not have died in vain.

These honored dead
shall not perish from the earth.

 

[HomerPindar]

Ok, so I've not "found" a poem yet, but there was another aspect to this thread that I did think on - the difficult poem. So, answer me this - what kind of poem is this one:

damn form
everybody
can’t you see I am worn
on graffitte walls far from free
notice
single string structures satisfy simple solutions
tot aos wid otise
resolutions of such exections justify such confusions
unless such forms a crutch
cause then ya outta luck
to be is not
undone slip knots
realize all things as such
everthing fucks with structure

HomerPindar

 

[Rybka]

What kind of poem...?

Ok, so I've not "found" a poem yet, but there was another aspect to this thread that I did think on - the difficult poem. So, answer me this - what kind of poem is this one:

damn form
everybody
can’t you see I am worn
on graffitte walls far from free
notice
single string structures satisfy simple solutions
tot aos wid otise
resolutions of such exections justify such confusions
unless such forms a crutch
cause then ya outta luck
to be is not
undone slip knots
realize all things as such
everthing fucks with structure

HomerPindar

What kind of poem is this? One that at least needs a spell check! "graffitte", "exections", "everthing"? Come on now!
There are also a lot of linguistic style changes, that tend to hurt the poem's flow for the reader, and "tot aos wid otise" does not make it any easier.
It reads as if a computer program had written it; randomly extracting lines from many different styles, (I have such a Program.) or a human author was trying to use as many styles/forms as he could cram in (except word spacing/placement, which could really help).

Regards,                                 Rybka

 

[HomerPindar]

Re: What kind of poem...?

What kind of poem is this? One that at least needs a spell check! "graffitte", "exections", "everthing"? Come on now!
There are also a lot of linguistic style changes, that tend to hurt the poem's flow for the reader, and "tot aos wid otise" does not make it any easier.
It reads as if a computer program had written it; randomly extracting lines from many different styles, (I have such a Program.) or a human author was trying to use as many styles/forms as he could cram in (except word spacing/placement, which could really help).

Regards,                                 Rybka

You missed the part of the subject header that reads difficult? And yes, it seems that my computer once again does not save my spell checked version overtop of the originals. Ah well on that score... here, let me fix it up for you so you can actually attempt the difficult question of why write it. Or, perhaps answer the original quesition, what forms of poetry is it in?

damn form
everybody
can’t you see I am worn
on graffitti walls far from free
notice
single string structures satisfy simple solutions
tot aos wid otise
resolutions of such expectations justify such confusions
unless such forms a crutch
cause then ya outta luck
to be is not
undone slip knots
realize all things as such
everything fucks with structure

heres an odd one, graffito...always thought of it as graffiti, but my dictionary says otherwise ...anyhoot

oh, sorry Rybka, anyhoot isn't a word, I do so appologize for extending the english language by being silly. I know I know, but if the cockroaches were as wonderful as the fish were, we wouldn't be bothering...now would we?

HomerPindar

 

[Rybka]

Re: Re: What kind of poem...?

...
oh, sorry Rybka, anyhoot isn't a word, I do so appologize for extending the english language by being silly. I know I know, but if the cockroaches were as wonderful as the fish were, we wouldn't be bothering...now would we?

HomerPindar

Fish eat cockroaches. They are nice and crunchy, but they give me gas.

Regards,                                 Rybka

 

[HomerPindar]

Re: Re: Re: What kind of poem...?

Fish eat cockroaches. They are nice and crunchy, but they give me gas.

Regards,                                 Rybka

hahahahaha, see, i just knew that was a baited hook there...


HomerPindar

 

[Angeline]

Experimenting

What kind of poem is this? One that at least needs a spell check! "graffitte", "exections", "everthing"? Come on now!
There are also a lot of linguistic style changes, that tend to hurt the poem's flow for the reader, and "tot aos wid otise" does not make it any easier.
It reads as if a computer program had written it; randomly extracting lines from many different styles, (I have such a Program.) or a human author was trying to use as many styles/forms as he could cram in (except word spacing/placement, which could really help).

Awww c'mon, fishy! Is there no room for innovation?

Carelessness is one thing--you'll get no argument from me about the need to be doing what one does in a poem by choice and not mistake. Sometimes, though, poems that seem difficult are just different--experimental or avant-garde, no? If people like Kenneth Rexroth or some of his contemporaries didn't listen to jazz (sorry, lol, but it's the example that came to mind) and then apply improv to poetry, there would have been no beat poetry movement. Yes they had more traditional influences, too, but they were experimenters. Poets like Ted Berrigan and Ron Padgett wrote sonnets that that aren't iambic (nor is the famous one by Billy Collins, ), but they're great sonnets.

And what about music? Most people would call John Coltrane a musical genius, but if artists like Bird and Diz didn't precede him, what "style" would he have played? And even if you're not a fan of John Cage, other, less "out there" composers (Mahler, Bernstein) have drawn on disharmonic or atonal elements brilliantly.

That's true in every field. It's change and, often, progress. (It's even in your poem-spacing patterns. )

Here's a cool site I found with lots of very experimental poetry, much of which draws on the opportunities for new forms inherent in technology. Some of it sure ain't my cup of tea, but I bet just a few years from now some of it will seem as the norm.

Burning Press

And I never post my "posted" (at Lit) poems here, but this one is just too apropos, lol.

 

[Angeline]

Found?

or should it be lost again? While surfing through the great UBU site (easily one of my all-time top ten cool sites), I noticed they have a found poetry section (found + insane, actually lol). Some of the stuff there is just weird, but some of it is really really funny. This one entitled "Penis" (listed under the Assorted category) made me laugh out loud.

UBU Found + Insane Poems

Can someone explain to me the benefit of knowing what this found poem offers? Any possible reason I can imagine simply makes me giggle.

 

[HomerPindar]

Re: Found?

or should it be lost again? While surfing through the great UBU site (easily one of my all-time top ten cool sites), I noticed they have a found poetry section (found + insane, actually lol). Some of the stuff there is just weird, but some of it is really really funny. This one entitled "Penis" (listed under the Assorted category) made me laugh out loud.

UBU Found + Insane Poems

Can someone explain to me the benefit of knowing what this found poem offers? Any possible reason I can imagine simply makes me giggle.

I'm kind'a puzzled by the combination of found and insane - it would leave out most of the found poetry in this thread, don't'cha think? It's as if they're looking for a particular type of found poetry - the sorta wanted poster that would make the unobservant all the more oblivious. Which, in Penis, is exactly what they've got, the sort of "dogs missing" poster folks might pay no attention to.

HomerPindar

PS: Rybka will be by shortly to spell check this for me.