Deconstructing slut-wife/wife watching stories

[vargas111]

Explaining the popularity of slut-wife/wife watching stories is a bit of a puzzle. Unlike most porn which is straight wish fulfillment: harems of beautiful, horny women of perfect romantic encounters being reifications of “normal” desires, these are stories about things that few men would want to “really” experience: their wives or girlfriends taken from them and sometimes impregnated by other men.

I see the explanation arising from a combination of fear and anger. Any given story is likely to have both elements, but let’s try to look at them separately.

Fear. Men are competitive about females and never loose the fear that a superior male could take away “his” female. Stories about fear are reassuring because a man is very unlikely to ever face the exaggerated situations of these stories. Children are said to fear monsters because they really know they do not exist, unlike some real fears (a parent’s death or divorce) In the same way these stories provide a cathartic fear that is ultimately comfortable. “There, but for the grace of God, go I,”

In “fear” stories the husband may have always wanted to see his wife (always physically desirable) with another man. The wife is reluctant, but with persistence, circumstances, alcohol and the right man, the wife gives in to the man’s desires, allows herself to be “taken,” and is permanently lost to the husband. These may include elements of humiliation for the husband. Much is made of his physical inadequacies, inability to please his wife. The wife is “happy” with her new life.

“Anger” stories have a different dynamic. In these, male anger at females for not being sexy/accommodating/man-centered enough comes out. The wife refuses to be exhibited, or engage in “uninhibited” sex, perform felatio, accept anal sex, etc. In these stories the wife is shy or conventional. Or the wife is older and starting back on a career. Here circumstance rather than the husband’s initiative brings the wife into contact with the “other” male usually “inappropriate” for her social and economic positing. He is a criminal, of another race, uneducated and crude. Here too the wife is taken and made the possession of the new male. In these stories more is made of the wife’s unfortunate fate. The message here to women seems to be: “Be careful in refusing my modest demands; it could be far worse.”

Does this make sense to anyone else?

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Well, I’m glad to see that I’m not the only one who spends considerable time trying to figure out the underlying dynamics of kink. In my case, it’s BDSM, but I could give this a try.

I’ve never done a straight slut-wife story, though I did do a story for someone where the guy’s wife was taken by a spirit and sexually humiliated in front of a bunch of people. I think it’s significant that he chose to have a spirit be her lover and not another male--kind of saves his male ego—but I think the dynamic is the same.

I think part of the thrill in slut-wife stories is simply the realization of the old male fantasy of the woman as slut. I think that all male fantasies basically come down to the idea that the guy’s so virile and sexy that any woman becomes a slut in his presence. This really doesn’t explain the appeal of the slut-wife story, which says that some other guy is so sexy that the woman becomes a slut in his presence, but it shares that same idea of woman-as-slut.

I think it might be that guys who have this fantasy have maybe been stymied by their wives. The fantasy could be an expression of the wish that maybe I can’t turn you into a slut, but someone else can. So you’re still a slut.

I’ve got to add too, that I don’t buy that thing about kids being afraid of monsters because they know they don’t exist. I remember very clearly being afraid of monsters—aliens in my case—and in my case it was purely fear of the unknown. Everyone told me they didn’t exist, but I knew they weren’t really sure, and that’s what scared me.

---dr.M.

 

[J.Q. Hack]

I'm certainly not very familiar with wife-slut stories but from reading the previous replies maybe I could add a little bit. In the stories described there seems to be a bit of displacement going on among the husbands in the stories. They are attempting to explain why the wife is with somebody else or the wife is justifying why she left in terms that highlight the superiority of the other male in ways that deflect criticism from the husband.

In one kind of story the wife is taken away by somebody who is either a criminal or somehow different from the husband. Perhaps in this the wife is lured away by what the husband is not, the idea of a criminal as being seen as more manly is not too far fetched. This perception of manliness may have little to do with the criminality of the other character but the lack of "bad boy vibes" present in the husband draws the wife away.

I suspect in stories where the wife is lured away by a hunkier, sexier male the husband has deedpseated emotional or self-image issues. I doubt there are many stories in this vein where the husband is described in any terms that are not less than perfect. The other male is everything the husband is not.

One point Dr. Mabeuse made ties in also. He said that the idea of the wife as a slut plays into these stories also, whether the husband makes her one or the other man does it doesn't matter. Along with this there is frustration on some men's part to be unable to control their wives and these frustrations transferred to the women's actions displace any blame from the man.

J.Q. Hack

 

[J.Q. Hack]

I'm certainly not very familiar with wife-slut stories but from reading the previous replies maybe I could add a little bit. In the stories described there seems to be a bit of displacement going on among the husbands in the stories. They are attempting to explain why the wife is with somebody else or the wife is justifying why she left in terms that highlight the superiority of the other male in ways that deflect criticism from the husband.

In one kind of story the wife is taken away by somebody who is either a criminal or somehow different from the husband. Perhaps in this the wife is lured away by what the husband is not, the idea of a criminal as being seen as more manly is not too far fetched. This perception of manliness may have little to do with the criminality of the other character but the lack of "bad boy vibes" present in the husband draws the wife away.

I suspect in stories where the wife is lured away by a hunkier, sexier male the husband has deedpseated emotional or self-image issues. I doubt there are many stories in this vein where the husband is described in any terms that are not less than perfect. The other male is everything the husband is not.

One point Dr. Mabeuse made ties in also. He said that the idea of the wife as a slut plays into these stories also, whether the husband makes her one or the other man does it doesn't matter. Along with this there is frustration on some men's part to be unable to control their wives and these frustrations transferred to the women's actions displace any blame from the man.

J.Q. Hack

 

[BlackShanglan]

What an interesting conversation. I love puzzling out the "logic" of kink. It makes it all so much more delightfully kinky

Displacement strikes me as a significant element. Possibly a glorification of the phallus and penetration by enacting it repeatedly? The husband derives a sense of super-virility by having his wife repeatedly penetrated essentially under his direction? I think that this goes with those types of stories that emphasize quantity of ejaculation as well.

I also think that the implication earlier is that there are multiple types of wife-slut stories, and this to my eyes is true. The above analysis works for the "wife's a slut and I want her to be / I made her into one." That also seems to involve control - i.e., husband controls wife's sexuality to the degree that he can make it into a sort of currency or object and give it to anyone he wants.

The other "brand" of wife-slut story - the one emphasizing male helplessness - strikes me as stemming from fear of inadequacy and a tendency to revert to infantilism. Not to get too Freudian here, but if we look as the fearful man as one who never successfully negotiated the stage of challenging the father figure, then in the "unwilling" wife-slut stories we have the wife restored safely to the position of mother (i.e., possessed by a stronger man), unable to make sexual demands of the nervous and rather unwilling husband.

One might also, of course, suggest that some of these are veiled homoerotic fantasies. Male desire for male through a mediating female.

But then we assume that all wife-slut stories are written by men. Are some written by women? Are they a fantasy of being the total center of attention, or of punishing a straying or inadequate male?

Just my rambling thoughts -

Shanglan

 

[J.Q. Hack]

I hadn't considred a sense of super-virility when writing about displacement. I could see how a husband in these types of stories would feel superior watching another man with his wife. Because in the end the couple remains together, she leaves the other lover and the husband is filled with a new sense of vigor.

Originally I had tried to convey in the idea of displacement a husband watching his wife sees the othe male as superior. Meaning the husband can safely feel that his wife is with the guy because he is simply better not that he has anything wrong with him, like being selfish or uncaring or abusive, that would drive the wife away in the first place. In the end it is delusional since the husband won't look at his faults and perhaps try to change.

Shanglan has an interesting thought, how would wife-slut stories written by a woman change the character dynamics? Does anybody have any examples?

 

[BlackShanglan]

The nature of the Internet being what it is, I can't promise that anything I've read was written by a specific gender. However, I have read some wife-slut stories that focused very heavily on the praise the wife received for being a slut and the admiration her behavior generated in those partaking of her favors. One even went so far as to have several of them wistfully congratulate her husband on his prize. This particular story struck me as likely to have been written by a woman who enjoyed the idea of the slut behavior as a way to attract male attention and receive praise while also enjoying the fantasy of endless satiation.

Shanglan

 

[HawaiiBill]

Good conversation

It is good to see the Editors Forum looking into motivation and the other elements of sexual drama. Keep up the good efforts!

Wife/slut and the other subjects you are discussing aren't familiar to me but --- from your thread--it appears there are many subtle underlayers. Glad to see this developing and hope we get around to the 'dull, straight stuff' soon for a similar examination..

 

[Delicious Blonde]

Explaining the popularity of slut-wife/wife watching stories is a bit of a puzzle...

...and watching the slut/wife haters' comments in the Feedback Portal is such a hoot!!!

 

[gystex]

Just a thought...

Not all readers would identify with the Husband. Some might prefer to see themselves as the one doing the wife - or the wife herself, for that matter.

Myself, I don't prefer the wife-as-a-slut stories, unless it's with another woman.

 

[rimmy]

I think there are a few points that haven't been metioned so here I go.... First of all not all slut wife stories have to humiliate the man, that is more cuckolding, but the element that works for me is the seeing the woman you love experiencing pleasure be it at my hands or someone else's. If you were to have a 3some with your wife and another woman and the other woman pleasured your wife would you not enjoy it. Secondly I think the element of power exchange plays a part in it. Having your wife submit to you so totally as to give herself to another man can be arousing to some. Just my 2 cents (Canadian so it's really like 1 cent)

 

[GingerV]

*fascinated by the discussion, so I'm putting my oar in...haven't thought about it as clearly as those above*

but the element that works for me is the seeing the woman you love experiencing pleasure be it at my hands or someone else's.

You raise the point I find most confusing about these stories, although I'm not sure you meant to. I don't think it _can_ just be seeing a wife taking pleasure. There has to be something substantial that differentiates this sort of story from "Group sex". These are fundamentally different from stories about orgies or swingers or 3somes. While the cliche's for this sub-genre seem different (she should be willing to do anyone, she should demonstrate the willingness with multiple partners in the story, the sex should not have an emotional component, etc.), I've always figured the defining characteristic had to do with the use of the nominally demeaning term "slut". While the woman may get praise sometimes, as Shanglan points out, I rarely if ever notice her being empowered by her actions. A man has always given her permission to be bad. I think those who implied earlier that it allows someone to enjoy voyeristic fantasies about their wife without any loss of control are largely right.

And I'm rambling, so I'm going to step out. Interesting stuff.

G

 

[BlackShanglan]

While the cliche's for this sub-genre seem different (she should be willing to do anyone, she should demonstrate the willingness with multiple partners in the story, the sex should not have an emotional component, etc.), I've always figured the defining characteristic had to do with the use of the nominally demeaning term "slut". While the woman may get praise sometimes, as Shanglan points out, I rarely if ever notice her being empowered by her actions. A man has always given her permission to be bad.

Those are excellent points. I always enjoy your posts, and have yet to see you ramble.

Your analysis of the key elements of the "slut" story is perceptive and brings to light significant ideas re: differentiation from group sex stories. Is this possibly linked to masculine fear of female sexuality as all-consuming or insatiable? That is, are the stories written to distance and "tame" that fear by refiguring the insatiable female as dominated by the male and acting under his direction? Then her demanding appetite can be seen as attractive, as instead of threatening the male sense of his own performance, it flatters his control and implies that any failing is the woman's - for being a "slut," albeit a "good" one - and not the man's.

Shanglan

(who has been reading far too much Freud lately)

 

[H piltdown]

Please forgive my intrusion into this particular forum. I'm not an editor, but this thread seemed a bit too bizarre to ignore. I don't know why you folks would admit almost no Knowledge and little comprehension of a subject just before jumping head first into a quagmire of unfounded supposition and gratuitous assumptions. The logic of this exercise baffles me.

Logical argument requires that the conclusions follow the premises. However, if the premises are not supported by verifiable evidence, those conclusions become tenuous at best. Furthermore, leaning on fictional stories that you haven't even read to create a psychological profile is puerile.

A person would have to be a pompous, puffed up, pretentious blowhard to make such uninformed arguments.

Now, do a few of you guys that posted previously feel I was being condescending and judging you unfairly?

I hope so. That was the intent.

That's how my wife and I felt while reading this thread. I'm sure a few more folks could say the same. People simply don't like being judged by those that do not understand what they're judging. Even intuitive arguments require some informed reason.

So, instead of speculating, why didn't y'all just ask?

Some sociologist, I believe, first said, "Generalizations aren't worth a damn, including this one." Therefore, I'm about to jump into a whole nest of them vile little vipers. The psychology of kink leaves little else.

A slut wife would normally be considered the submissive in a particular form of a D/s relationship. The other side of the coin is the Hot Wife - cuckold husband D/s relationship where the husband is submissive while serving his wife and her lover. The humiliation aspects are obvious, and the question that needs to be asked is; "Why anyone would choose to enter into any D/s relationship?"

It's really no more peculiar than any other kink. Each person has a myriad of reasons locked away in their heads for why they're especially interested in this thing or the other. That's what makes us all so interesting!

However, if you'd like an anthropological premise for why a person might choose this lifestyle, I'll attempt to provide one. Unfortunately, there's absolutely no studies that I'm aware of to fall back on. So, I'll speculate, but I'll do so as a person that has years of experience and dozens of real acquaintances involved in D/s relationships with an emphasis on this particular aspect...Cool?

Cool.

If we were to do a study of the demographics of the 'cheating wife' phenomena, I think we'd find that the husbands of the
slut wives would tend to be under forty-five, have some college or less education and earn less than $50,000.00 anually. The cuckold husband would tend to be over thirty-five, be a high school graduate or higher and earn over $40,000.00 anually. This would be very telling, (if my assumptions are accurate), when natural selection and the most robust reproductive age of men are taken into account along with that man's personal opinion of his level of success.

Women are a different matter. They're too complex and eclectic to get into in this limited forum. (That's called being diplomatic) But, the reasons they're interested in this lifestyle may be purely hedonistic. But, when it comes right down to it, isn't that what it's all about--For all of us?

We may never know exactly why we're attracted to certain characteristics or certain aspects of sexual behavior. We may know that we really get off when receiving oral, but we may never know all off the reasons why John Doe loves it, and John Q. is indifferent. People may share some strong desires, but not others, and still be interested in the same general type of role play.

So, the best way to find out why someone likes something is to just ask them.

If y'all would like to know why my wife and I get into this lifestyle, well....why not ask? People like talking about themselves a whole lot more than they like being pigeon-holed by others.

Thanks for y'all's patience....Pilt

 

[BlackShanglan]

I find this last post ... well. One grasps for diplomatic terms. Intriguing? Rather remarkable? It's really quite difficult to find the words. But as that has clearly never stopped me before, I shall try anyway.

Some key points in which I think we are in divergence, taken roughly in the order of their occurence:

Furthermore, leaning on fictional stories that you haven't even read to create a psychological profile is puerile.

This actually entails two assumptions which I would argue are equally erroneous. First, the obvious one: that we have not read the stories. I beg to differ. I at least have read quite a number of stories of this type, enough at least that I think, if you read carefully, you'll see that I'd already come to the same hot wife / slut wife dichotomy that you did.

Second, there is the assumption that some substantial barrier exists between one's fictional utterances and one's individual psyche. This would suggest that stories somehow come from a part of the brain utterly divorced from all other conscious and unconscious thought. This strikes me as highly unlikely. Furthermore, the close connection has been born out so often - I refer you to the most obvious in the case of an author like D. H. Lawrence, or more indirectly you might examine Yeats - through correlation of literary works with what is also known through letters, interviews, journals, and acquaintances that at this stage I think the burden of proof is really on the doubter. This is not, of course, to say that the works of an author can be read as a simple and open book of his or her life, but rather that, as Freud observed, the unconscious mind has an affinity for symbols and is likely to work its way into discourse, like literature, that has a strong symbolic element.

A slut wife would normally be considered the submissive in a particular form of a D/s relationship. The other side of the coin is the Hot Wife - cuckold husband D/s relationship where the husband is submissive while serving his wife and her lover. The humiliation aspects are obvious, and the question that needs to be asked is; "Why anyone would choose to enter into any D/s relationship?"

Acutally, well before that the question would need to be asked, "Are hot/slut wife stories written solely or largely by people who actually live the 'lifestyle'?" Many of the ones I have read are clearly not recitations of actual events and at times are so unlikely as to indicate that the author has clearly never attempted such actions. The underlying assumption in your focus upon the dynamics and economics of "real" hot/slut wife relationships is the implication that these stories are simply recitations of actual or potentially actual events by persons active in the lifestyle. I think this highly unlikely. This is not because of a paucity of participation in this lifestyle - I will not attempt to supply statistics, such as number of participants or their socioeconomic status, that I could not possibly possess - but because Literotica has, by its very nature, large numbers of writers of fiction, and because this "kink" is, as you so aptly point out, in many ways like so many others - rooted in the dynamics of power. That makes it attractive as fiction writing as well as a record of actual events.

However, if you'd like an anthropological premise for why a person might choose this lifestyle, I'll attempt to provide one. Unfortunately, there's absolutely no studies that I'm aware of to fall back on. So, I'll speculate, but I'll do so as a person that has years of experience and dozens of real acquaintances involved in D/s relationships with an emphasis on this particular aspect...Cool?

Actually, no. The statistical validity of "me and the people I know" is never a strong basis for argument, methodological popularity aside. I was intrigued by the nature of the community in your area that you know of, but don't feel that it tells me anything significant about the practice as a whole. As you pointed out with your delightful opening to your own post, it's rather fruitless to speculate in the absence of data. I do consider stories data - of a limited type, and of a limited quality. I do also consider your own experiences data - but also of a limited type, and of a limited quality. I don't find them especially more convincing than the literary record.

If we were to do a study of the demographics of the 'cheating wife' phenomena, I think we'd find that the husbands of the
slut wives would tend to be under forty-five, have some college or less education and earn less than $50,000.00 anually. The cuckold husband would tend to be over thirty-five, be a high school graduate or higher and earn over $40,000.00 anually. This would be very telling, (if my assumptions are accurate), when natural selection and the most robust reproductive age of men are taken into account along with that man's personal opinion of his level of success.

That would indeed be very telling. However, in the absence of all statistical support, what is actually telling at the moment is the way in which your assumptions reveal your personal experiences and ideology. It is impossible, by the nature of your information, for them to reveal more than that.

Women are a different matter. They're too complex and eclectic to get into in this limited forum. (That's called being diplomatic) But, the reasons they're interested in this lifestyle may be purely hedonistic. But, when it comes right down to it, isn't that what it's all about--For all of us?

I submit the above as a particularly interesting sample. Men are evidently quantifiable in specific terms - education, income. Women are evidently random, incomprehensible, and without clear motivation for their actions. This tells me very little about the phenomena of their behavior, but yields intriguing insight into the mental processes of the speaker.

So, the best way to find out why someone likes something is to just ask them.

If y'all would like to know why my wife and I get into this lifestyle, well....why not ask? People like talking about themselves a whole lot more than they like being pigeon-holed by others.

Again, multiple assumptions that I think need to be addressed. First, there is once more the inherent assumption that we were discussing people who actually "live the lifestyle." As far as I am aware, we were discussing stories - a key difference in my opinion because, as mentioned above, I doubt very much that there is a 1-to-1 correlation between writing and acting on the impulses described in the writing. In fact, I would assume that like many fetish interests, my own included, yours probably includes a wide range of participation from those who live the "lifestyle" 24/7 to those who simply pen a story or two of the "what if" variety. As we are addressing, amongst other things, the question of why the stories have resonance with a broad audience, we are actually in many ways discussing something antithetical to participation in a blow-by-blow fashion; we are examining the symbolic value of the action as writing. (Or at least, I would suggest that we were, as you are the first person to mention actual physical consummation of the actions in the stories).

Second, there is the assumption that asking someone the source of his or her behavior will yield an immediate, absolute, and accurate answer. I will submit the opinion that very often nothing could be further from the truth, and that many people, myself included, do not entirely understand the roots of their own behavior. Certainly one of the reasons I enjoy discussing the psychology of fetishism is to continue to prod gently at the snapping jaws of my own internal contradictions. You acknowledge yourself that "We may never know exactly why we're attracted to certain characteristics or certain aspects of sexual behavior," so why assume that you have the answers?

Third, you assume that no one responding or discussing here is active in this lifestyle or considers him/herself part of that community. I see no evidence either way. I shall confine myself merely to observing that should I find my own particular fetishes and inclinations under public discussion, I would participate in pretty much exactly the way I have here - speculating, exchanging ideas, and choosing not to identify myself as a participant in the activity. This would not be from shame but in my case a desire that my stories and communications not be read from that point forward in the light of my stated interests. I prefer to identify myself more primarily as "writer" generally than "<X> fetishist" specifically.

Finally, I shall end this admittedly lengthy post on the topic of "pigeon-holing." A pigeon hole is, of course, a small, narrow, enclosed slot into which something might be crammed uncomfortably. Leaving aside the delightful sexual imagery that entails, I would observe that that is not, in fact, what has taken place through the course of this discussion. Rather than seeking a single, reductive answer to the question - something akin to, say, "it's just a Darwinistic manifestation of alpha/omega male status" - we've actually sought many divergent explanations, none of which has to date been shouted down or denied by anyone. We are in fact as far to the opposite of pigeon-holing as can well be imagined. We are engaging in an act of civil discourse in which we ponder openly the ramifications of power, sexuality, control, release, and pleasure. Thank you for joining it.

Shanglan

 

[GingerV]

Hi Pilt,

Dang! You mean the proto-typic slut wife story is ANYTHING like real life? I would've assumed it wasn't. I, in fact, did assume it wasn't. I pretty much figured most of the people writing about it WEREN'T lifestylers, and therefore weren't writing documentaries.

Hell, I've RARELY read a group sex story that seemed like real life (especially the ones that start off "I couldn't believe it when this really happened to me"). Hell, I've rarely read a straight sex story that seemed a lot like real life. So check me on this one, cause I'm really curious if you come back. No sarcasm intended at all. Are the slut wife stories reminiscent of the lifestyle? As I type this I realize that I don't know if you write for the site or not, I know I've not read any by you. I'll pop off and check as soon as I'm done with this. Cause if they're not alike, it kinda seems like you're getting your apples in a twist over our discussion of oranges.

Mind you, I understand that offense can be taken where it wasn't meant and do want to know if an appology is still owing. You just caught me by surprise, is all.

With that said, should a writer of the proto-typical slut wife story happen across this, I do see where they could be within their rights to take offense. There's something to think about.

G

 

[Delicious Blonde]

...I still think the slut/wife public comments are a real hoot!

 

[H piltdown]

GingerV, thanks for understanding, and no apology is needed or expected. I wasn't particularly upset. I just find that talking over people in generalizations is more like gossip than a legitimate inquiry into the nature of a subject. It's like three neighbors speculating about the actions of a fourth without consulting the fourth. They may touch on a few of the real reasons, but may also attribute some that are wrong, and ignore nuance.

Actually, if you were to Google for some of these key words, or search internet groups, I'm sure you'd uncover an entire online community. The majority of these folks may not live the life. They could be role players, or more likely just some folks with an active fantasy life, but a community exists, and there is plenty of people physically active. Although, I do agree with you in thinking that most of the people that write the stories aren't physically active in the lifestyle, but do contribute, and therefore, I think, involved. They do help to shape the fantasies of others.

Plus, the lines of involvement could be gray at times. For instance, at what point does a simply voyeuristic fetish become a cuckold fantasy?

Plus, I did say that my wife and I were involved in D/s relationships, but I didn't specify how.

 

[H piltdown]

Shanglan, I'm not quite sure of what you were trying to say, other than you think I was wrong about something, and that is your right. If you honestly believe that a better understanding of a subject can be found through the speculation of the inexperienced rather than those involved, then that is your opinion. I will respect that, but I will also reserve the right to disagree.

What I did read in your post was a long list of assumptions that I'm supposed to have made. Well, let's address that list.

My first assumption was that you never read any of this particular type of story. Well...I never said you had. You weren't the only person posting. I had no intention of singling you out--And, I didn't.

My second assumption was "that some substantial barrier exists between one's fictional utterances and one's individual psyche." Who, other than you, brought up barriers? People write for a lot of different reasons. Many people at Literotica have written stories specifically for others. Some are even creative enough to invent a character that has little if any interests resembling those of the author. Some people write in partnership, blurring the lines of individualism. Some may prefer to write, catering to a target audience.

Look, all I'm trying to say is that sometimes a writer of fiction might be doing what they do best--Write fiction! I don't think it's really wise to psycho-analyze someone simply on the basis of a story or two. Certainly, much of the material on this site is written as fantasy, but that doesn't mean a person will ever attempt to fulfill that fantasy, or that they are any less involved in the lifestyle.

Your opinion may vary. That's your right.

Next, you say, "The underlying assumption in your focus upon the dynamics and economics of "real" hot/slut wife relationships is the implication that these stories are simply recitations of actual or potentially actual events by persons active in the lifestyle." Again, I neither said that, nor assumed it. In fact, it never even occurred to me until you brought it up.

I haven't thought of a person writing about D/s relationships as being anything other than intimately involved with the lifestyle. They help to shape it as much as those that role play and those that are involved 24/7.

As for the Anthropological premise, that was an assumption on my part. I clearly admitted that. Plus, I'm happy it elicited such a profound rebuttal from one with admittedly no interest. Thanks.

"[W]hat is actually telling at the moment is the way in which your assumptions reveal your personal experiences and ideology." This one’s lagniappe. I'd be most interested in knowing what this says about my "personal experiences and ideology." Really...You do appear to have become an expert on H piltdown.

“I submit the above as a particularly interesting sample. Men are evidently quantifiable in specific terms - education, income. Women are evidently random, incomprehensible, and without clear motivation for their actions. This tells me very little about the phenomena of their behavior, but yields intriguing insight into the mental processes of the speaker."

I must confess, the implications of this comment did initially piss me off. But, in the interest of civility, I'll suppress the urge to respond in kind, because I could be misinterpreting your intent. So please, be more forthright. Is this intended to be a veiled ad hominem? Please tell me what psychological processes this indicates. I will freely admit that I believe women exhibit more nuance in relationships. I will also grant that this is simply a generalization, but I previously said that I was going to entertain generalizations. Also, if I would have entered a long dissertation on the psyche of women in general, I would have been treating women in the same condescending manner that originally prompted me to respond to this post. As you’ve shown by your response, people don’t like to be represented or misrepresented by generalized speculation. Your response was exactly the type I anticipated.

When did I say "that the inherent assumption that we were discussing people who actually 'live the lifestyle.'" Perhaps, this misunderstanding is my fault for not specifically explaining those that participate in any number of D/s lifestyles do not necessarily have to "live the lifestyle." There are any numbers of ways that folks can be involved in D/s relationships. Sharing fantasy is certainly an alternative. You expressed this same opinion, but went on to attribute to me a quote I never made.

"[T]here is the assumption that asking someone the source of his or her behavior will yield an immediate, absolute, and accurate answer." Once more, at which point did I express this idea? Immediate? Absolute? Accurate? The only point that I tried to make that could possibly beg this erroneous accreditation is one of my two primary arguments that someone involved with this lifestyle would have more insight to offer than those that offer only cursory experience and imprecise speculation.

Let me explain this opinion in simple terms. If I have one friend who works as a plumber and another who is a mechanic, and I have a problem with my car, I will most likely get better advice from the mechanic. That statement doesn't imply that the plumber cannot offer quality advice, but accepts that odds favor the advice of the mechanic.

Finally, you say that I assumed "that no one responding or discussing here is active in this lifestyle or considers him/herself part of that community." This was no assumption. First of all, the words "no one" are not mine. Next, let’s look back at the words of some of those posting.

"In my case, it's BDSM, but I could give this a try."

"I'm certainly not very familiar with wife-slut stories..."

"Wife/slut and the other subjects you are discussing aren't familiar to me..."

Shanglan, I’m making no judgment, but from what I’ve been able to gather, you seem to want to put forth an argument that you have discredited. You seem to want to say that a person that has simply read a few fictional accounts are at the least equally qualified to comment on a subject and the psychology of those involved as another person that is intimately familiar with that subject. You said, “you might examine Yeats - through correlation of literary works with what is also known through letters, interviews, journals, and acquaintances...” You’re absolutely correct. We cannot prove the man’s motives without using other evidence. I’d certainly have a hard time psycho-analyzing Robert Heinlein by just reading a couple of his books, or even the complete set. Yes, one or two characters may be based on Heinlein’s own personality, but I couldn’t know that without having other evidence, or personal experience with Mr. Heinlein.

Plus, it’s been years since I studied Freud, but why can’t someone write a story without having some underlying “symbolism” driving their pen? Use your imagination. Don’t you think that if I offered you a hefty fee for writing an insightful story about, oh, let’s say, curling in Canada, wouldn’t you study the culture revolving around the game, and even interview those involved?

I’m not trying to say that you can’t have good ideas of your own, but wouldn’t the competitors and fans be so much more revealing of the true nature of the game?

Now, if you are a true and rabid curling fan, there’s no doubt you'd have a distinct advantage in your writing.

And, you can say you’re involved in any number of fetishes, but I would not prejudge your writing, your psychology or your earnestness. I prefer to let you establish such things. After all, you are the foremost expert on BlackShanglan, even if you don’t understand every little reason for your own behavior.

One more time, thanks for your patience…Pilt

 

[BlackShanglan]

That's a lengthy and interesting reply, Pilt, but for the sake of brevity and the patience of the others on the board, I shall confine myself largely to the one area in which we are evidently most at odds. That would be the concept of "assumption."

You seem to believe that your writing lacks "assumptions" because you have not stated anywhere in it "I assume this." I, of course, take the opposite position, that assumptions in on the whole tend to be unstated, but no less present for being unstated. What we choose to mention or not to mention, what we think is or is not valid information, whose points of view are considered more or less significant - these opinions all base themselves on assumptions. Consider the actions or opinions carefully, and the assumptions reveal themselves. All rational argumentation relies, to some extent, on a set of shared assumptions; I was merely pointing out that I found many of yours difficult to share and requiring more support.

Related to that, one's assumptions certainly leech into one's writing, whether one wills it or not. Certainly it seems unlikely that Heinlein, for example, was willfully baring to the world his thinly veiled Oedipal/castration fanatasies in "Farnham's Freehold." But there they are. Assumptions of other natures are equally rife. Harriet Beecher Stowe, for example, never flatly states "I think that people of African descent are best when they look and act most like me." And yet it would be very difficult to argue against this point with a copy of "Uncle Tom's Cabin" open in front of one.

Thus, when I included the comments on Yeats's and Lawrence's letters and journals, I actually did not intend to imply that the letters were necessary to come to the conclusions. Anyone giving a careful eye to "Snake" and "Sons and Lovers," or to "Meditation in Time of Civil War" joined with "Prayer for my Daughter," hardly needs any external information to learn much of what there is to know about Lawrence's sexuality or Yeats's fascination with the fall of the Ascendancy. My purpose in citing them was to point out that the validity of examining the author through the symbolic matrix of his or her text has support; i.e., the same conclusions could be reached through a more "empirical" or verifiable process. Given that the process is valid when carefully applied, I think it stands alone quite nicely.

Shanglan