D(r)ead - critique please

[Zhuk]

some systems go dead I doze on bed posture correct no snoring so boring life and strife running to hide bleed from barbs that hurt but break when pulled out of water half drowned barely breathing polluted air tough task but they ask for identity papers no baggage maybe the age need to change already old stone cold nude statue in public view a full phallus faithfully fills lovely pool stand and drool full moon very soon fall from grace they replace with who displays longer stronger spring of life feels my wife is family & kids open my lids to see me lying on pillow crying silent scream deafening dream

 

[Angeline]

some systems go dead I doze on bed posture correct no snoring so boring life and strife running to hide bleed from barbs that hurt but break when pulled out of water half drowned barely breathing polluted air tough task but they ask for identity papers no baggage maybe the age need to change already old stone cold nude statue in public view a full phallus faithfully fills lovely pool stand and drool full moon very soon fall from grace they replace with who displays longer stronger spring of life feels my wife is family & kids open my lids to see me lying on pillow crying silent scream deafening dream

Did you see the flash fiction thread? This is similar to some of the stuff there. It's very good and I like both the lack of punctuation and the internal rhyme. This has a really nice rhythm and flow.

Nice to see you again.


Ange

 

[Jennifer C]

Did you see the flash fiction thread? This is similar to some of the stuff there. It's very good and I like both the lack of punctuation and the internal rhyme. This has a really nice rhythm and flow.

Nice to see you again.


Ange

I agree with Ange that the rhythm and flow is very nice and i love the internal rhyme but if i'm honest I could use a few punctuation marks in there.

I'm no where near as qualified as Ange to critique your poem and I bow down at her greatness, but and i'm saying this as a reader not a writer a few puntuations marks would of helped me to get a better feel of this poem.

That is just my opinion, punctuation aside I thought it was a good poem

 

[4degrees]

i love the long run-on sentence style. love that beat. i think it's perfect, do more.

 

[PatCarrington]

for me, punctuationless flash fiction doesn't work.

as poetry, it's screaming for linebreaks.

and without punctuation, i think linebreaking becomes an essential art - random linebreaking creates the impression of a bunch of lazy nothingness to me.

there are many poets here who linebreak beautifully without punctuation when they decide not to use it...tristesse comes to mind, and jd4george, who is no longer posting, unfortunately.

 

[Angeline]

for me, punctuationless flash fiction doesn't work.

as poetry, it's screaming for linebreaks.

and without punctuation, i think linebreaking becomes an essential art - random linebreaking creates the impression of a bunch of lazy nothingness to me.

there are many poets here who linebreak beautifully without punctuation when they decide not to use it...tristesse comes to mind, and jd4george, who is no longer posting, unfortunately.

Zhuk is a good poet--he writes "standard" free verse as well as form (eastern forms) poetry, and has published in some pretty darned good journals. This is the first experimental prosey piece of his I've seen. I rather like the lack of punctuation and the breathless reading it encourages. I also like breaking lines in odd places or not breaking them at all because it encourages a myriad of interpretations. Not every reader likes that, but if we all tried to appeal to every type of reader what would we write?

Patrick, you are just an opinionated boy--but then I'm a pretty opinionated girl in my sweet way, heehee.

And Jennifer no bowing down please, lol. I write some real crap in case you haven't noticed already.

 

[PatCarrington]

Zhuk is a good poet--he writes "standard" free verse as well as form (eastern forms) poetry, and has published in some pretty darned good journals. This is the first experimental prosey piece of his I've seen. I rather like the lack of punctuation and the breathless reading it encourages. I also like breaking lines in odd places or not breaking them at all because it encourages a myriad of interpretations. Not every reader likes that, but if we all tried to appeal to every type of reader what would we write?

Patrick, you are just an opinionated boy--but then I'm a pretty opinionated girl in my sweet way, heehee.

And Jennifer no bowing down please, lol. I write some real crap in case you haven't noticed already.

i've never seen any of his poetry.

i'm sure it's good. i like the words here. it's just that prose written in a straight run becomes beyond breathless for me. i've seen it done before, and it might be a matter of taste.

but i like stretch poetry without punctuation. linebreaking takes on added importance, almost becomes the dominant skill.

breaking in odd spots does add wanted ambiguities i agree, but you have to be good to do it well. it takes understanding and deft handling, don't you agree? otherwise, randomness takes over and it just stumbles along.

hi, girl of sweet ways.

 

[Angeline]

i've never seen any of his poetry.

i'm sure it's good. i like the words here. it's just that prose written in a straight run becomes beyond breathless for me. i've seen it done before, and it might be a matter of taste.

but i like stretch poetry without punctuation. linebreaking takes on added importance, almost becomes the dominant skill.

breaking in odd spots does add wanted ambiguities i agree, but you have to be good to do it well. it takes understanding and deft handling, don't you agree? otherwise, randomness takes over and it just stumbles along.

hi, girl of sweet ways.

I do agree. I think Zhuk's poem is a good example of no punctuation working well, but it is a matter of opinion always--with any poetry. To me, this poem doesn't stumble, it rolls.

I figured you hadn't seen his stuff before--that's why I said what I did. He was on this forum a few years ago--before he went on to bigger and better publishing.

Hi yourself, Mr. Patrick.

 

[PatCarrington]

I do agree. I think Zhuk's poem is a good example of no punctuation working well, but it is a matter of opinion always--with any poetry. To me, this poem doesn't stumble, it rolls.

I figured you hadn't seen his stuff before--that's why I said what I did. He was on this forum a few years ago--before he went on to bigger and better publishing.

Hi yourself, Mr. Patrick.

i wouldn't dare to linebreak it, but in my opinion it would be much more effective that way.

from the way Zhuk introduced the thread (D(r)ead - critique please), i made the assumption that he was unsure of the effectiveness of something so experimental and wanted reaction, though i suppose D(r)ead might be the title.

i mentioned tristesse's name because i read recently some punctuationless passion(s) of hers where it struck me that she really has gotten a wonderful feel for breaking ideas across rather than at line endings, and she doesn't chop ideas to smithereens with random breaks.

a straight run like the one above made me think of linebreaking as soon as i read it.

 

[Angeline]

i wouldn't dare to linebreak it, but in my opinion it would be much more effective that way.

from the way Zhuk introduced the thread (D(r)ead - critique please), i made the assumption that he was unsure of the effectiveness of something so experimental and wanted reaction, though i suppose D(r)ead might be the title.

i mentioned tristesse's name because i read recently some punctuationless passion(s) of hers where it struck me that she really has gotten a wonderful feel for breaking ideas across rather than at line endings, and she doesn't chop ideas to smithereens with random breaks.

a straight run like the one above made me think of linebreaking as soon as i read it.

No, you're probably right that he wanted opinions--hence the title. He's a pretty modest guy, is Zhuk--he *would* say something like that lol.

And I still disagree with you--not about Tess though.

 

[flyguy69]

I gotta side with Pat, here. There are, based upon the way it parses in Angeline's first quote, no breaks at all in this piece. Written as a single line it would make for an interesting piece on a subway wall or a sculpture, but here the author is relegating the breaks to the software used to read it.

Since it gets broken, I think it would be a stronger piece if broken well.

 

[flyguy69]

Maybe there are some breaks in there: if I quote the original source I get extended spaces at all of these spots, but the Lit software eliminates extra spacing between words. I can't say I like this better, though!

some systems go
dead
I doze on bed
posture correct
no snoring so boring
life and strife
running to
hide
bleed from barbs
that hurt but break
when pulled
out of water
half drowned
barely breathing
polluted air
tough task
but they ask
for identity papers
no baggage
maybe the age
need to change
already old
stone cold
nude statue
in public view
a full phallus
faithfully fills
lovely pool
stand and drool
full moon
very soon
fall from grace
they replace
with who displays l
onger stronger
spring of life
feels my wife
is family
&
kids
open my lids
to
see me lying
on pillow crying
silent scream
deafening dream

 

[Lauren Hynde]

some systems go . .dead . .I doze on bed . .posture correct . .no snoring so boring . . life and strife . .running to . .hide . .bleed from barbs . .that hurt .but break . when pulled . out of water . .half drowned . .barely breathing . .polluted air . tough task . but they ask . .for identity papers . .no baggage . .maybe the age . .need to change . .already old . stone cold . nude statue . in public view . a full phallus . faithfully fills . lovely pool . stand and drool . full moon . very soon . fall from grace . they replace . with who displays . longer stronger . spring of life . feels my wife . is family .& .kids . open my lids . to . see me lying . on pillow crying . .silent scream . .deafening dream

If we quote Zhuk's post we can see the spacing the way he intended.

Personally, though, I think the accidental result of having no differentiated spaces turned out to be much better than this one. It is much quicker paced, opened to several interpretations, and a lot punchier.

With the different spaces that Zhuk intends, on the other hand, those different interpretations start to fall one by one, and the almost necessity of reading the whole poem in one breath dies away. It cries for line breaks, much more than the accidental version cried for punctuation, and feels much more random and even sloppy: notice how there are places with three spaces, others with four, others still only with two. It resembles those unreadable pieces of text with ellipses every other word, except that in this case they're invisible. The noise they make is still all there, though, and that makes it even more disturbing.

As for the text itself - and I'll refer only to the better version, the accidental one of the original post - I quite enjoy it. It's a good example of pushing the formal envelope of poetry and making a bridge between poetry and prose, which is something I'm always very interested in exploring. One section that left me with some doubts, though, was this:

...feels my wife is family & kids open my lids...

I don't understand the use of the ampersand in substitution of the word "and" unless it intends to force two elements to be read as one. In this case, "family & kids", for example, except that doesn't make much sense to me. The alternative would be to link the two phrases and force them to confront each other: "my wife is family" & "kids open my lids". That's actually a great juxtaposition and a very powerful one, so I am inclined to go with this being the way Zhuk meant it, but it poses a new problem: if you take into consideration the spacing/breaks he intended, what you really have isn't "my wife is family", but "feels my wife..."

So, what am I missing there?

 

[flyguy69]

....
So, what am I missing there?

I don't know, because your exegesis is quite good!

 

[PatCarrington]

if he intended the breaks as Lauren suggests, which apparently he did, then i agree the accidental straight-prose version is better than the intended one.

though i still prefer it written as poetry, meaning with increased line breaks, rather than either the intended or accidental version.

it could be done, i think, with no loss of the interpretational possibilities lauren mentions. though it wouldn't be easy and i certainly don't want to try.

there's no doubt it's a push of the poetic envelope, though.

 

[CharleyH]

some systems go dead I doze on bed posture correct no snoring so boring life and strife running to hide bleed from barbs that hurt but break when pulled out of water half drowned barely breathing polluted air tough task but they ask for identity papers no baggage maybe the age need to change already old stone cold nude statue in public view a full phallus faithfully fills lovely pool stand and drool full moon very soon fall from grace they replace with who displays longer stronger spring of life feels my wife is family & kids open my lids to see me lying on pillow crying silent scream deafening dream

Well it is short, and that is good because large chunks of grammarless anything is just irritating, particularly in prose. However, I love the reach, the freshness of non-form, which one views in narrative at times, but rarely in poetry. (free verse has YOUR form). The choppy, but not new, and yet, avant garde way it appears is brilliant in the way it is written and your choice intrigues me, but the free flow and journalistic should not surprise me. As a whole, the theme does in a smarmy and sarcastic way, just not linearly, have meaning.

The message seems clear ... systems are dead... form is ... stiffeling and in the end, it is not real.

My take only and it does not mean I enjoy it - lol - just appreciate.

 

[Zhuk]

Thanks

Thank you everyone for your very helpful feedback. And Angeline, where is all this surprising praise coming from? You want somethng from me?

 

[Rybka]

Belated comment

Since you requested, Zhuk, I shall respond.

While I tend to agree with PatCarrington's taste for indicated pauses (line breaks at least, even if no other punctuation), I also agree with the others that the automatic editing by the VB program Lit. uses was serendipitous. The unspaced run-on version as first displayed is more powerful than the spaced or line-break forms. It does allow for more possible interpretations/metaphors. (i.e. in one phrase I see tsunami, drowning, nightmare sweat, etc.) This does not mean that changes would not improve the work. I think some simple things (like sticking "my" in the phrase "I doze on bed") would make it better.

My final thoughts on the initial version you posted (as displayed by Lit.) is that it is poetic "stream of consciousness" (or unconsciousness since it is a dream) and I would really like to hear you read it aloud!

I see a lot of potential, but it needs some changes if it is to be a smooth read. You (with the help of VB scripting software) may have found something worth exploring. Put it on the shelf for awhile and come back to it with a clear and objective eye. That invariable helps. If you are content with it then and see no obvious changes to make, then it is done, and ready to face the world on its own.- (Poems are like children, they are not born full-grown.)

I hope this is what you wanted and you see my words as positive comments. I apologize for not reading the thread when originally posted, but I have had computer problems.

Regards, Rybka


.

 

[Zhuk]

Thnx

Thank you Rybka. Your comments are all positive.

Regards,
Zhuk

 

[Angeline]

Thank you everyone for your very helpful feedback. And Angeline, where is all this surprising praise coming from? You want somethng from me?

No dear, I just liked your poem.

Of course, if you want to give me something...could you maybe get a poem or two of mine published?

 

[Sins666]

Okay...it rhymes but even with line breaks and/or pauses it just doesnt smack me in the head as good. It reads more like someones free write than anything bordering poetic.

Sorry, just don't see the beauty.

 

[Zhuk]

Thanks

Thank you for your opinion. Sorry for the delayed response.

Okay...it rhymes but even with line breaks and/or pauses it just doesnt smack me in the head as good. It reads more like someones free write than anything bordering poetic.

Sorry, just don't see the beauty.

 

[Jennifer C]

Okay...it rhymes but even with line breaks and/or pauses it just doesnt smack me in the head as good. It reads more like someones free write than anything bordering poetic.

Sorry, just don't see the beauty.

I can see the beauty in this and do like it alot but i'm a punctuation girl, lol...

 

[Zhuk]

a request?

Angeline please do not use the dreaded 'P' word so frequently - it embarasses me - was not a big deal really oh and I got turned down by the New Yorker - they said and I quote "despite the obvious merit of your work we are sorry that we cannot use it in our publication" ) Whatever that means! Maybe you can decipher it for me?

Zhuk

No dear, I just liked your poem.

Of course, if you want to give me something...could you maybe get a poem or two of mine published?

 

[flyguy69]

Angeline please do not use the dreaded 'P' word so frequently - it embarasses me - was not a big deal really oh and I got turned down by the New Yorker - they said and I quote "despite the obvious merit of your work we are sorry that we cannot use it in our publication" ) Whatever that means! Maybe you can decipher it for me?

Zhuk

I wish I could say I got turned down by The New Yorker. All I can say is I got turned down by Country Mouse. Ploughshares opened up for reading this week; maybe I'll send them something.