Curious what the Brits of the Board think about this?

[Cheyenne]

Paul Craig Roberts
WASHINGTON TIMES
http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/commentary-2000101915159.htm


With the demise of the Soviet Union a decade ago, U.S. foreign policy has fallen off the screen. Arab-Israeli conflict is trying to put it back on, but until the latest outbreak of violence in Palestine, the focus of U.S. foreign policy was on Kosovo, a break-away province of a small country, Serbia.

This is nothing short of amazing considering that the United
States is on the verge of losing its great ally of the 20th century Great Britain. The problem is not that the Brits have turned against their American cousins. The problem is that Britain is about to become a province of a European superstate.

It is paradoxical that the U.S. government supports tiny
Kosovo's independence from Serbia, but not Great Britain's
independence from Europe. Kosovo is historically a part of
Serbia's heartland, where Serbs fought their greatest battles against the Turks. The English have never been a part of Europe.

A campaign of fear, orchestrated by Prime Minister Tony
Blair's Labor government and misguided British business
interests, is driving the British people into the maw of the
European superstate. Unless the British give up their currency and adopt the euro, the argument goes, the British will be left economically isolated and slowly sink into the sea.

Brussels' bureaucrats can hardly wait to begin "harmonizing"
English income tax rates by raising them by 20 percentage
points (a 50 percent increase) to match Europe's higher levels. With one stroke, Margaret Thatcher's reforms, which
revitalized the British economy, would be repealed.

Other woes await the British people. Unlike Europe, England's social security and general welfare system are not funded with a payroll tax. This gives the British an employment advantage,which will have to be "harmonized" away. Likewise for the British ability to hire and fire. In addition, Britain's funded private pensions would be raided in order to pay for Europe's unfunded state pension systems.

For the past two decades, the British economy has
outperformed Germany and France. The British have nothing to
gain from becoming part of Europe, but they have everything to lose: political sovereignty, a strong currency and relatively low payroll and income tax rates.

The British would also lose their greatest historical
achievement their legal system. In Britain, law originates in "the bosoms of the people," not in the writ of the European Commission. There is a huge difference, as the
independent-minded British people would discover once
bureaucrats start giving them orders.

The United States would be another big loser. Our special
relationship with Great Britain cannot survive British
integration into Europe. We would lose our most important ally. The trans-Atlantic bridge would be closed, and the U.S. would be politically isolated from Europe.

The impact on our diplomatic clout would be dramatic. When we have trouble lining up a self-absorbed Europe behind a
necessary action, the British help us lobby the Europeans and apply the screws. Once Britain is part of Europe, our diplomacy will have lost a critical ally.

To protect our diplomatic influence, the first task of the new government in Washington is to convince the British to forget the euro and join the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA). The British belong in NAFTA with the U.S., Canada,and Mexico. The U.S. invests twice as much in Britain as Europe does, and Britain is the single largest foreign investor in the United States.

The U.S. needs to rethink its foreign policy interests. Great Britain's absorption into Europe would fracture the
English-speaking peoples. How are we served by the
disappearance of our most important ally?

If the American political mind can again come alive to foreign policy, we should weigh the pros and cons of also bringing Japan, Taiwan, Australia and even Russia into NAFTA. Now is the time for the United States to think about protecting its influence, not after we are enfeebled by the loss of Britain.

The battle for Britain in the opening years of the 21st century could prove to be far more decisive for our future than the famous Battle of Britain in the fall of 1940.

 

[Myrrdin]

<-----Brit.
What agenda is this Paul Craig Roberts pushing?

Britain is unlikely to become a province of a European super state . We,re to proud of our independance. More co-operation, great. But this a group of countries speaking different languages, with governments ranging from far right to far left. Only so much is possible.
The debate at the moment is just about alligning our currencies. The fact that our pound is strong against the weaker euro currencies, is making it difficult for our exporters. And Europe is our biggest export market.
But yesterday Tony Blair, admitted that if a referendum was held now, on the subject, he would vote against dropping the pound and joining the Euro currency system. The Danes recently voted the same way in a referendum. The difference in our economies, and national feeling make it unlikely to happen for a while.

"Now is the time for the U.S to think about protecting our influence."

mmmmmm, yeah right. And alligning ourselves with a group of European countries that think the same way as us on common subjects (GATT etc) is the best way of protecting ours. Strength in numbers etc.

"The battle for Britain."

We aint some little island to be picked off and used as a third world sweat shop by GAP or nike.

 

[Closet Desire]

American ex-pat

Wow...imagine asking a question I would love to answer!

I read the article and was appalled at the apparent ignorance of the writer. As the first reply suggests, England is not some third-world island or a tidbit being picked at by the US and Europe. It is a nation of over 40 million people with a host successful industries, some of the top universities in the world, and many other qualities one would expect from a civilised, industrial country.

As the European continent is a source and destination of much trade, like Canada and the US, the English have a vested interest in maintaining good relations of all sorts. If the euro is successful in improving the efficiency of financial trade then it might be something the English will agree to although the current air seems to be a pretty stron no.

England does not see itself as a province of either the US or Europe and continues to make independent decisions in all arenas. I think in particular the English resent any notion that Americans often have that the country is dependent on the US. It isn't any wonder that Americans are often seen as arrogant and egotistical (sorry...they often look that way to me too...here or in Paris or wherever).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not down on America. I'm a disabled veteran and value the business skills I learned in the US because they are tremendously effective here. But Americans need to realise that it's a big world outside of Pleasantville with different ideas, different values, different histories, and different cultures. Trying to apply the rules that are followed in the US regarding taxes, benefits, etc. simply don't apply here. To suggest that the taxes in England (as the article did) are lower than the rest of Europe is pretty much rubbish. It's like saying taxes in Florida are lower because they don't have an income tax. If you're going to have government services then you're going to have taxes and more.

The English typically pay among the highest energy taxes anywhere in Europe. Products here, from cars and furniture to food and medicine (not free under the NHS) cost 20-50% more than just 20 miles away in France. When the Americans were talking about creating a health service like the British my partner and I could only smirk because the taxes we pay for health care are twice what I paid for fully self-funded private insurance in the US. On top of that, we personally use private health because the quality of the NHS service is increasingly poor. In American you can take it for granted that if you need a cat scan you can get one. Here you might wait two or more years for one. Yes, years.

Just like American makes decisions in its own best interest (and often for others as well), England makes decisions in its own best interests. They may not always coincide with the American view, but for it to be any other way would be...well...un-English!

England and America have a long history, economically, polictially, militarily, and so forth. It is a relationship that isn't likely to change over something trivial like the euro or the EU. Kids here eat McDonalds, wear shirts with the stars and stripes, and watch Friends on TV. Like Oscar Wilde said..."two countries divided by a common language."

 

[Flagg]

My intelligent objective view is that that whole article was a load of shite.

European superstate

As soon as people start using that word you might as well turn off and go home. As far as idiotic propoganda-esque brainwashing terms go that one isn't a bad one.

I think its important to get a few things straight:

1) Most people who attack the EU do so more through xenophabia than through a keen knowledge and understanding of international currency transactions. They are the sort of people who say "Frogs" and "Krauts" and other such undesirable rubbish.

2) Nobody seems to realise that a hell of a lot of the money spent on regenerating local communities and encouraging small business and building nice parks in dilapidated estates comes from european grants.

3) Big businesses are beginning to pull out of Britain because they simply can't afford to trade here. Nissan for example put it to the government that the only way they'd stay (thus maintaining thousands of jobs) is if Britain joins the Euro.

They idea of becoming the umpteenth US state as some people seem to like the idea of revolts me completely. I probably don't need to go in to that one in any depth.

 

[insideShiraz]

???????????High Cheyenne...

Sumthin' about East/West Germany?

 

[Closet Desire]

East / West Germany

Don't forget that East and West Germany were the result of dividing the spoils of war between the Soviet Union and the Western Allies. Hindsight being 20/20 and all that.

 

[insideShiraz]

Big WW...

My Grandfather thought the Wall should not come down. When I asked why, he said Look what happens when they are allowed to be One...

 

[Laurel]

If I'm not mistaken about the Washington Times, the paper is owned by some right-wing religious group, and they've been one of the big Clinton-bashing papers in the last few years. I think they're the ones who keeps also "publishing" wild rumors about Al Gore. If they are who I'm thinking they are, the article isn't worth the HTML it's written in.

 

[Cheyenne]

Re: Big WW...

My Grandfather thought the Wall should not come down. When I asked why, he said Look what happens when they are allowed to be One...

He wouldn't think that if he had been to Berlin to see the two different worlds depending on which side of the wall you stood.

I went to Berlin right after the wall fell because I wanted to see "East" Berlin for myself before it was "fixed". I went again last year because I wanted to see the progress that has been made since the fall of the wall. The transformation is amazing. I will go again in a few years after more of the construction work is done to see more of the progress.

Incidently, "West" Berlin seems to have a love for Americans. I had people thank me for the American help in the air lift that brought them food and supplies over the blockade. I obviously had nothing to do with it, and wasn't quite sure what to say. But several "West" Berliners told me they always make an effort to personally thank the Americans that they meet. Those times made me feel proud to be American.

 

[Flagg]

The fall of the Berlin Wall as far as I'm concerned was possibly one of the most emotional and wonderful events of the 20th Century. I lived in central europe at the time and it was amzing. The amount of skodas, ladas and trabants that hit the roads of West Germany and France in the following months was incredible. And inside these cars where people looking around in complete wonder and disbelief at the life they had been denied for all those years.

It truelly was a wonderful thing. I went to Berlin that year as well Cheyenne. Were you that really loud american woman who kept on shouting about how dirty everything was on the ex-east side?

 

[Softly]

Let me Echo Cheyenne

I was in Germany for the month of September. Cheyenne is right. The German people clearly and openly state their
admiration for Americans. Most of the time, I was with medical professionals. Three different times the Marshall plan was mentioned, and the airlift was mentioned several other times.

One man told me, "You know, because of your country, the German people are free for the first time in history."

The thought crossed my mind that "Never in history has a country rebuilt a foe after a war, gave it a constitution for true freedom, and turned it loose to govern itself, as we Americans have done."

It is now fifty-five years later, and the Germans, many who were not born at the time, mention it today. George Marshall and Harry Truman were giants.

 

[Flagg]

I don't want to ruin your happy thoughts but you have just displayed a typically egotistical american attitude by failing to include countries like Britain in France when discussing the delivrance of Germany. True, Marshall was an american but but the whole thing was discussed and agreed between the allies. Lets also not forget that due our resepctive countries, millions of Germans were far from freed by the whole arrangement - i.e. the poor fuckers on the other side of the wall. I don't think you'll find them thanking you for anything.

Why do americans always pretend to be heroes. You were late for gods sake! You intervened in the war in order to boost your economy after the slump of the thirties. There is nothing fucking admirable about what you did at all. There's never anything admirable about war.

Grrr.

 

[Handy-Andy]

So What About The Rest ?

My dad Fought in North Africa , Italy (Monte Casino one of the bitter and hardest battle's of Europe) and then served has occupation troop's in Austria after the war AND he's not American . He's A PROUD ENGLISH MAN who fought for King and Country So Don't try stealing all the limelight

It was an effort by most people's of Europe and the Commonwealth and later the American's against a tyrany that had to be defeated.

 

[Closet Desire]

how little we know about each other...

Funny how we've moved from ATMs to World Wars and the Iron Curtain.

I was riding the train into London one day last year. I was sitting across from two elderly women who started peering out the window as we pulled into the platform at Stratford. The one women told the other that she remembered standing, as little girl, on that very platform and watched London burning. She was being moved out to the country to stay with another family where it was safer.

I heard lots of stories growing up from elders about both the World Wars, but the perspective was different as was the experience. I think it's important to remember that reality is a very transient thing and it shaped by our history and our experiences.

I wore an American uniform for many, many years. I buried a lot of friends, including my best friend who was killed in the barracks bombing in Beruit. Yes, I was also in the Nimitz battle group when it was redeployed from the Med to the Persian Gulf following the Iranian hostage event. Funny, I never felt like a hero or that there was anything terribly noble about war on anybody's side. Rather I always felt it was necessary evil and one of the painful realities of the world we live in.

The history of WWII and everyone's involvement is a complex one. It isn't easily settled by pointing at the Americans and saying "you were late" or by pointing at the British Ambassador as he steppped off the plane from Germany with a letter promising that the Germans would not attack. There seems to be no shortage of fools in any language you choose to speak.

I will have to concede that I get pretty tired of hearing Americans go on and on about what heroes they are. Even if they are, were, or will be, a little reserve borrowed from the British would be a welcome relief.

The truth is I have liked the people everwhere I have lived and visited which includes much of Europe, the Middle East, and the Carribean basin (includes the US as well). Heck, I'm almost ashamed to admit it here in England, but I even like the French!

Well, that was my two pence worth.

 

[Myrrdin]

The thought crossed my mind that "Never in history has a country rebuilt a foe after a war, gave it a constitution for true freedom, and turned it loose to govern itself, as we Americans have done."


Umm Softly have you seen that new Hollywood film about a U.S. submarine in W.W.II. It captured a German submarine, seizing an Enigma machine. Enabling the Allies to decode secret transmissions, shortening the war and saving untold lives.
In reality it was a British submarine. But we don't mind you taking the glory.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

And it was really America that fought at Agincourt.

 

[Handy-Andy]

And if only they had been there in 1066 at the battle of Hastings .

[Edited by Handy-Andy on 10-20-2000 at 10:16 AM]

 

[Expertise]

Actually a British Deystroyer captured the "enigma" machine used by the Kriegsmarine. The allies already had another that was captured by Polish partisans.

I wasn't going to comment on this thread but what the hey.

The US was late. Although without them Britain would have been effectively left to wither on the vine while the Germans and the Soviets duked it out. US entry in to the war allowed Great Britain to do something more than merely contemplate invading mainland Europe. By this invasion (which american troops, material and supplies made possible) western Europe was both liberated and spared Soviet occupation. Because Uncle Joe wouldn't have stopped until the first T-34 dipped its tracks in the Bay of Biscay.

I too get irate when americans come off sounding like they did it all alone but the allies could not have done it without them. Churchill knew it from the start.

Dixon I am sure there are those in your land who truly believe that Agincourt was somehow an American feat of arms. Sad really.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

We few. We happy few.

 

[Expertise]

...we band of brothers in buckskins who cut down the flower of French nobility at Agincourt with our squirrel rifles. Old Hickory said we could take em by surprise if we didn't fire our muskets till we looked em in the eye.

 

[Weird Harold]

...we band of brothers in buckskins who cut down the flower of French nobility at Agincourt with our squirrel rifles. Old Hickory said we could take em by surprise if we didn't fire our muskets till we looked em in the eye.

Silly man... everyone knows is was English archers demonstrating the efficiency of the longbow that made Agincourt worth the historians time to record.

They should be glad the might of America's assembly lines could produce enough longbows to make a difference.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

But if it weren't for the Americans supplying the canoes Henry would never have made it across the Channel to invade in the first place.

 

[Expertise]

Breaking in to song.....

God Bless America.....

 

[libra-2]

To get back to the question....

What exactly was the question Cheyenne? Or are you just stirring up a little storm in a teacup over here in good old blighty?

During my 23 years in the Royal Air Force I too have seen and done a few things that I liked and disliked. Whilst stationed with your forces in Belgium and Germany I used to read your papers, watch your TV and listen to your radio. Frequently I could not believe we existed on the same planet when I compared the stories to the British, French or German media. I had the same feeling reading the papers in the Middle East. I don't think anybody need worry unduly about anything that newspapers print other than the ones that inflame feelings at a time of election (as you are having right now in the states).

There may be elements of truth in a lot of stories, and in the views expressed above, but it all comes down to the referendum in the end and if the Brits want to be part of the Euro they will, or not, as the vote will show. Do not make the mistake of thinking that we would rather be part of America, that too would have to be voted on to get a true perspective (personally I can't think of anything worse).

By the way, what people the world over say to your face (Germans thanking Americans) may be a different thing to what they say behind your back. I can tell you they don't say the same at all. Don't forget that a huge part of the world, this world, sees the USA as a very intimidating power intent on increasing their world influence. Coca-cola, Microsoft and Macdonalds are cited as examples of this, rightly or wrongly. Please don't anyone, American, British or whoever, perpetuate this. We don't need people to be thinking this way. Globalism will only pass from industry to governments and once the politicians start we're all fucked.

Britiain put 100% of its resources into the last world war, America probably put 20% but don't forget that France. Poland and Holland put 110%. They were occupied and still found the courage and grit to fight back. No, that war could not have been won without America's help but that help was like helping someone to cross the road when they have already walked twelve blocks. It ill behoves anyone to crow that 'we won the war'.

OK that's me off my soapbox, who's next?

[Edited by libra-2 on 10-20-2000 at 12:16 PM]

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

You're right, of ocurse, about the higher price most of Europe paid during WWII, but just as it's silly for Americans to take all the credit, it's also silly to deny that without US involment the Axis would have captured half the world. That's nothing to sneeze at, and it's damn enormous thing to be proud of. Americans were in both theatres of war for four-five years, contributing a fantastic amount of resources, turning entire industries into war machines, forwarding a home campaign of rationing, bond buying, film propoganda production, etc. etc. -- a way larger measuring of effort than 20%. No one invade the U.S., made our citizens do forced labor, or bombed our cities (if you put aside Pearl Harbor), but it was not a "clean" war for the U.S.. We didn't treat WWII like McDonald's opening French Franchises. The U.S. suffered not as much and gave not as long, but its effort was monumental.

Americans do forget that Russia and England held out for so long, under such terrbile loss, and that if they hadn't the Americans would never have been able to enter the war like they had. Europe owes everything to England. As for Russia and its Iron Curtain, I won't go there...

But I think Europeans sometimes forget that there were two wars. While Americans fought in Europe we were also Island hopping to defeat a vigorously imperialistic Japanse army which no one was stopping. When Americans get all puffy and say "We won the war" they include the Pacific Theatre.