Curious about snuff rules after seeing a story that seems to skirt them

[HHHawkeye]

So I recently read a story called Sex Slave Lottery, about a bunch of women who participate in a high-stakes lottery where someone is randomly chosen to be sexually enslaved, and everyone else gets paid a lot for taking part if they aren't picked.

But I noticed the story mentions multiple tiers of slavery, including some people who, in exchange for more money if they aren't picked, become a type of slave the story explicitly says can legally be tortured and killed. The story, as far as I can tell, never actually shows the fates of these women when they're picked.

Is that why the story is allowed on the site? Does it only become snuff if you actually depict the stuff that happens to them, and merely saying it will happen to them is okay? Or did this story just get lucky when getting through vetting, or was this written before some rules changed?

 

[KeithD]

So I recently read a story called Sex Slave Lottery, about a bunch of women who participate in a high-stakes lottery where someone is randomly chosen to be sexually enslaved, and everyone else gets paid a lot for taking part if they aren't picked.

But I noticed the story mentions multiple tiers of slavery, including some people who, in exchange for more money if they aren't picked, become a type of slave the story explicitly says can legally be tortured and killed. The story, as far as I can tell, never actually shows the fates of these women when they're picked.

Is that why the story is allowed on the site? Does it only become snuff if you actually depict the stuff that happens to them, and merely saying it will happen to them is okay? Or did this story just get lucky when getting through vetting, or was this written before some rules changed?

Probably because it just mentions it in passing and doesn't graphically describe it happening.

 

[Brutal_One]

It probably slipped through as even I think a reference should be caught as I see it no different to under age reference in passing. I used the term ‘sacrifice’ but only as a historical reference which passed so this may be the same. Without reading the actual story it would be difficult to guess. Brutal One.

 

[SimonDoom]

It's OK to publish a story with murder and torture at Literotica. The key is that it can't be presented in a way where the murder and torture are the source or focus of erotic pleasure. If it's described in a summary way, or if it's "offscreen" then there shouldn't be a problem.

 

[oggbashan]

I think that the Literotica rules on snuff were that no one should get sexual satisfaction from the killing.

I have killed several people in my stories but no one was aroused by the killings so they passed.

From the description, that story sounds much closer to the limit. It might have passed then. Would it pass as a new submission now? Possibly not.

 

[Emirus]

Gratuitous violence

I had a story rejected because of gratuitous violence and the standard response did include the word “snuff.” The rejection wasn’t because the female assassin killed the male villain by giving them an electric shock causing the villain to involuntarily hang themselves.

The rejection was because, in an earlier scene, the assassin had kidnapped the villain. In doing this she had shot a sex worker, who was giving the villain a blowjob at the time, in the head. I changed it to chloroform without a problem because it didn’t harm the story.

The idea is you can’t describe the scene in detail. However, I’ve read stories such as when castration takes place before an audience of cheering women has been described in detail. A story, of a female assassin, who beats a baddie to death, complete with description of the blood and gore and physical damage done, with her husband taken along to see her do it. I have wondered how they got through. There are other examples.

I’m submitting a story soon in which seven men are shot. None of it is described in great detail. No blood. No heads exploding. I’m going to be interested to see if it gets through without alteration. Two men murdered by another villain and the other five by the heroine to save the person she’s being employed to protect.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

I think you could set a story in 1945 Berlin, with killing and mass rapes going on daily, provided that it was background to the protagonist’s tale. If it becomes part of the protagonist’s reality, eg she herself being raped, it might still get through provided that it happened sometime in the past and isn’t graphically described. If it is graphically described, then her enjoying it by the end of the experience would, by the site rules, seem to offer a back donor route to approval. I’m not entirely sure why that last makes it ok, but such are the rules. Each story is judged on its own merits, of course and the line’s blurry at best.

+

On the subject, I have a very dark story I’ve been sitting on for some time, wondering what to do with it. Some possible roadblocks:

1. It features a brutal rape, with no enjoyment on her part. Balanced against that is that the victim is an actress who knows in advance what the risks are, is highly skilled in unarmed combat, does not suffer lengthy physical distress and is very well rewarded for her participation in the show.

2. Physical and sexual assault of a ‘female’ robot; the latter definitely does not enjoy it. Against that is the fact that the ‘bot, while intelligent, is not human.

3. The protagonist is snuffed at the end of the story. Against that is that it’s offscreen and her death is hardly erotic; no reader is going to get off on it.

Before I go to all the trouble of polishing and submitting it, I’d appreciate your thoughts.

 

[SimonDoom]

I think you could set a story in 1945 Berlin, with killing and mass rapes going on daily, provided that it was background to the protagonist’s tale. If it becomes part of the protagonist’s reality, eg she herself being raped, it might still get through provided that it happened sometime in the past and isn’t graphically described. If it is graphically described, then her enjoying it by the end of the experience would, by the site rules, seem to offer a back donor route to approval. I’m not entirely sure why that last makes it ok, but such are the rules. Each story is judged on its own merits, of course and the line’s blurry at best.

+

On the subject, I have a very dark story I’ve been sitting on for some time, wondering what to do with it. Some possible roadblocks:

1. It features a brutal rape, with no enjoyment on her part. Balanced against that is that the victim is an actress who knows in advance what the risks are, is highly skilled in unarmed combat, does not suffer lengthy physical distress and is very well rewarded for her participation.

2. Physical and sexual assault of a ‘female’ robot; the latter definitely does not enjoy it. Against that is the fact that the ‘bot, while intelligent, is not human.

3. The protagonist is snuffed at the end of the story. Against that is that it’s offscreen and her death is hardly erotic; no reader is going to get off on it.

Before I go to all the trouble of polishing and submitting it, I’d appreciate your thoughts.

My thought:

While your story seems like a perfectly legitimate subject for a story, it might have a problem satisfying Literotica rules.

I can't tell from your short description what is erotic about your story. It doesn't sound erotic. Interesting, but not erotic. Literotica publishes non-erotic stories, but there is the possibility that without obvious erotic content the Site owner will look at whatever sexual activity is in it and ask whether that activity passes muster under Lit standards. I don't know if it will.

If there was a clear erotic theme to the story that was NOT contained within the description you gave, then I think you wouldn't have a problem. But without such a theme I think there's a risk of the story not being accepted.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Good point, Simon. Ain’t much lovin’ in it. A lot of sex, but not much lovin’. I’ll need to think on that.

 

[AlinaX]

1. It features a brutal rape, with no enjoyment on her part. Balanced against that is that the victim is an actress who knows in advance what the risks are, is highly skilled in unarmed combat, does not suffer lengthy physical distress and is very well rewarded for her participation in the show.

I don't think it's for Literotica, but it's an idea I often return to. I think a lot of trauma around rape is connected to the realisation of how vulnerable we are. In civilised society we expect people to play by the rules, more or less, and when those rules are shown to be a fiction it changes the whole world.

Contrast that to, e.g., prison or sex work or slavery or being a powerless serving girl in a royal court, and while the violence of rape is undiminished, the very real threat of it was understood beforehand. (I'm not saying rape is not traumatic in such cases, only that victims may perhaps be more resilient.)

2. Physical and sexual assault of a ‘female’ robot; the latter definitely does not enjoy it. Against that is the fact that the ‘bot, while intelligent, is not human.

Rape of a sentient being is rape. Cue Niska...

3. The protagonist is snuffed at the end of the story. Against that is that it’s offscreen and her death is hardly erotic; no reader is going to get off on it.

Are they explicitly snuffed, rather than merely killed offscreen?

 

[TarnishedPenny]

I think a lot of trauma around rape is connected to the realisation of how vulnerable we are. In civilised society we expect people to play by the rules, more or less, and when those rules are shown to be a fiction it changes the whole world.

That’s very well put! The question perhaps becomes ‘whose rules’?

Rape of a sentient being is rape. Cue Niska...

Again, whose rules? We get into another fascinating discussion, per Azimov’s The Bicentennial Man. I omitted to note that the protagonist is both the rape victim and the one abusing the robot. SPOILER ALERT IN CASE I DO PUBLISH. Her abuse of the fembot is one reason the Church turns against her and has her snuffed.

Are they explicitly snuffed, rather than merely killed offscreen?

The attack starts ‘on camera’ so to speak. Little of the nasty action is seen thereafter; the reader gets the broad-brush understanding of what is happening via the general impressions of somebody else watching it on a screen or monitor.

 

[Emirus]

I think you could set a story in 1945 Berlin, with killing and mass rapes going on daily, provided that it was background to the protagonist’s tale. If it becomes part of the protagonist’s reality, eg she herself being raped, it might still get through provided that it happened sometime in the past and isn’t graphically described. If it is graphically described, then her enjoying it by the end of the experience would, by the site rules, seem to offer a back donor route to approval. I’m not entirely sure why that last makes it ok, but such are the rules. Each story is judged on its own merits, of course and the line’s blurry at best.

+

On the subject, I have a very dark story I’ve been sitting on for some time, wondering what to do with it. Some possible roadblocks:

1. It features a brutal rape, with no enjoyment on her part. Balanced against that is that the victim is an actress who knows in advance what the risks are, is highly skilled in unarmed combat, does not suffer lengthy physical distress and is very well rewarded for her participation in the show.

2. Physical and sexual assault of a ‘female’ robot; the latter definitely does not enjoy it. Against that is the fact that the ‘bot, while intelligent, is not human.

3. The protagonist is snuffed at the end of the story. Against that is that it’s offscreen and her death is hardly erotic; no reader is going to get off on it.

Before I go to all the trouble of polishing and submitting it, I’d appreciate your thoughts.

My first story was about a transsexual hooker who brutally rapes a sad little man, photographs all his personal details while he’s tied and blindfolded in case she decides to blackmail him, and then completely ignores him once she’s finished with him except for telling him to get out because she’s expecting another client.

It got rejected. So I added ten words, “Could I come back and see you again sometime, please?” That was all it needed for it to be accepted. It showed he had enjoyed being assaulted and raped.

 

[Bramblethorn]

It probably slipped through as even I think a reference should be caught as I see it no different to under age reference in passing.

But passing references to under-age sex are allowed here.

 

[oggbashan]

That’s very well put! The question perhaps becomes ‘whose rules’?


...

Whose rules? The answer is simple: Laurel's

If she says No - that's it. Try to argue or to push her too far?

Your stories will stay in pending for a very long time if she thinks you are trying to get around her decisions.

 

[AlinaX]

Whose rules? The answer is simple: Laurel's

No. Rape of a sentient being is rape. It's not a question of rules. Whether it's regarded as acceptable is a different question.

 

[ElectricBlue]

No. Rape of a sentient being is rape. It's not a question of rules. Whether it's regarded as acceptable is a different question.

I don't think there's an argument about that. What the OP has queried are the snuff content rules on Lit (and by extension the discussion has wandered into rape and consent). As Ogg rightly says, the content lines are drawn by Laurel on this site, and as is repeatedly said, the Lit policies have nothing to do with the law or anything else.

On Lit, they are Laurel's rules - whether they are applied equally, consistently, or fairly is another thing. Debating whether they are right, wrong, or questionable might be fun, but it's a bit pointless. Authors can provide guidance based on experience, but the easiest way for anyone to find out what side of the line they're on is to submit their story. They'll soon find out.

 

[jaF0]

So I recently read a story called Sex Slave Lottery, about a bunch of women who participate in a high-stakes lottery where someone is randomly chosen to be sexually enslaved, and everyone else gets paid a lot for taking part if they aren't picked.

That part could be interesting. The rest, not so much.

 

[JaxRhapsody]

So I recently read a story called Sex Slave Lottery, about a bunch of women who participate in a high-stakes lottery where someone is randomly chosen to be sexually enslaved, and everyone else gets paid a lot for taking part if they aren't picked.

But I noticed the story mentions multiple tiers of slavery, including some people who, in exchange for more money if they aren't picked, become a type of slave the story explicitly says can legally be tortured and killed. The story, as far as I can tell, never actually shows the fates of these women when they're picked.

Is that why the story is allowed on the site? Does it only become snuff if you actually depict the stuff that happens to them, and merely saying it will happen to them is okay? Or did this story just get lucky when getting through vetting, or was this written before some rules changed?

It would be snuff if it were described in detail as the patron killed the slave during sex and busted their nut as the life faded from their eyes... or such soul departure is how they depart their seed.

Actually... one of my stories has sexual death in it, but it's not violent or anything. I don't think laurel even batted an eye. Snuff is something that doesn't cross my mind, I had kinda forgot it existed, untill this thread.

 

[SimonDoom]

Rape of a sentient being is rape. Cue Niska...

OK, trying to be provocative without necessarily being dickish, if that's possible:

Is it necessarily true that nonconsensual sex with ANY sentient being is rape?

What about a species of aliens from another planet where coercive nonconsensual sex is the norm? Where that's what they're used to?

In Blade Runner, the summary gunning down and execution of Replicants was not murder, despite the fact that they had attained self awareness and sentience and they looked exactly like human beings. We might think of it as murder, morally, but in the movie it wasn't murder legally, and it's ambiguous whether the movie wants us to see it that way.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

OK, trying to be provocative without necessarily being dickish, if that's possible:

Is it necessarily true that nonconsensual sex with ANY sentient being is rape?

What about a species of aliens from another planet where coercive nonconsensual sex is the norm? Where that's what they're used to?

In Blade Runner, the summary gunning down and execution of Replicants was not murder, despite the fact that they had attained self awareness and sentience and they looked exactly like human beings. We might think of it as murder, morally, but in the movie it wasn't murder legally, and it's ambiguous whether the movie wants us to see it that way.

Interesting point! FWIW, I've always thought that that penultimate scene on the rainy roof showed how much more 'human' the replicant was than the biological humans who had made, used and chased him.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Rethink

Simon, I’ve been pondering this. You are quite right about the ease with which the society in Blade Runner was willing to terminate sentient artificial creatures. On the other hand, our own society applies very different standards to sex and killing.

Even the most ardent vegan will agree that putting down a mad dog is acceptable and non-vegans, having hired anonymous strangers to do the dirty work for them, regularly devour other sentient creatures. Yet let sex get involved and everything shifts. I’m not talking the extreme - bestiality - for nobody accepts that. Just M/F sex is dodgy enough that we hesitate to discuss it and same-sex sex is to some horrific, in some places still a criminal offence.

AlinaX is quite right in rejecting forced sexual relations with what we now consider sentient creatures. I understand her objections. Yet what happens with AI as we approach the boundary? It’s an uncomfortable topic, one I had hoped to examine with my story. Now, I’m not so sure.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Yet what happens with AI as we approach the boundary? It’s an uncomfortable topic, one I had hoped to examine with my story. Now, I’m not so sure.

I took a consensual approach to my AI's sexuality in my angel and astronaut story. The computer gets curious about human sexuality and embarks on a monitoring program (via medical telemetry) to figure it out. She puts it all down to signal input overload, redirects nanobots in her own systems as a test case, and waits for a thunderstorm. She gets coy, explaining to the astronaut why she was momentarily off line.

In the sequel, when I get around to finishing it, another AI gets curious about dreams in a similar kind of a way - but of course, being a computer, is able to download the other computer's data. I suspect AI gender confusion will follow - this AI literally being a chip on his astronaut's shoulder.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Interesting point! FWIW, I've always thought that that penultimate scene on the rainy roof showed how much more 'human' the replicant was than the biological humans who had made, used and chased him.

Which ending did you see? The studio's, where Deckard and Rachel escape (little known fact, that film was given to Scott by Stanley Kubrick, from the opening sequence of The Shining) or the later Ridley Scott Director's Cut, where the final shot is the folded paper unicorn on the floor by the lift door? An important difference, resolution-wise.

 

[SimonDoom]

AlinaX is quite right in rejecting forced sexual relations with what we now consider sentient creatures. I understand her objections. Yet what happens with AI as we approach the boundary? It’s an uncomfortable topic, one I had hoped to examine with my story. Now, I’m not so sure.

Imagine a universe in the not too distant future in which different kinds of people were created for different things. Some were created -- designed -- specifically to have forced sexual relations with. They were designed to enjoy them. They were programmed to prefer force. It's uncomfortable to think about, obviously. That doesn't mean it's not a fit subject for the imagination.

Or imagine a universe in which humans encounter a sentient species with which compatibility is impossible. Would we have any moral obligation to them? Why, if no moral community with them is possible? Why would sentience in this case matter? What if they were sentient but we knew to a near certainty that they wanted to destroy us? Why would we owe them anything at all?

Things are less obvious and comfortable than we want to believe. Stories are a useful medium for exploring uncomfortable topics.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Imagine a universe in the not too distant future in which different kinds of people were created for different things. Some were created -- designed -- specifically to have forced sexual relations with. They were designed to enjoy them. They were programmed to prefer force. It's uncomfortable to think about, obviously. That doesn't mean it's not a fit subject for the imagination.

Shades of HHGTTG's "Dish of the Day":
https://youtu.be/bAF35dekiAY?t=90