crucial element of a story--zig-zag progress of action

[Pure]

after one reads a few typical porn stories of a certain type--say 'non consent'--one is struck with a certain sameness and predictability, *not merely at the overall or macro level*, i.e. outcome. there is uniform scene-to-scene progress, and this often holds within scenes.

the best of short stories, novels and erotica (some of the best efforts at Lit) have what i call, for lack of a better term, a kind of zig zag pattern: the action leads *toward* an outcome (e.g. of a scene), then away, then back again. the blue line represents steady increase or progress--in mathematics, 'monotonic' approach--to the goal/outcome.

i've drawn a figure to show what i mean, as to progress of action, shown by the red zig-zag line.

notice also the end points of the red and blue lines. many of the best novels, even 'romance,' end up a little off the desirable outcome, e.g. in 'Jane Eyre' she 'gets' Rochester, but he's been blinded.

probably some of the best writers, having a sense of drama and how to 'hook' readers, do it without much planning, but it's there. the typical porn 'story' is really more like --i've racked my brain on this-- a restaurant review or a travel account: "i went to Istanbul and finally saw the Bosporus [followed by details of getting there and what it looked like]."

any thoughts about constructing porn/erotica with this zig zag feature? do you try for or plan it? what are your favorite examples in the erotic area (e.g. Lit stories)?

 

[sunandshadow]

You might be interested in this book: http://www.amazon.com/Vector-Theory-Structures-Literature-Drama/dp/1594577781

You might also google the phrase "fortunately-unfortunately" and maybe add the word plot to make sure the results are relevant to writing.

I don't really write with that kind of zig-zag pattern myself, or if I do I have small fast downs paired with bigger slower ups. Or maybe one big down before the story starts and spend the story climbing up again. I also like to use events that are simultaneously good in one way and bad in another. But I agree that this sort of up and down is often a sign of an exciting story and a handy way to look at plot.

 

[Pure]

thanks,

thanks, sun. my post was a bit sketchy. i looked at the vector book, reader comments, and I don't have a good idea of its contents. do you?

the old "fortunately unfortunately" game or structure is certainly relevant: i remember the old lines. fortunately, he was able to catch a small chartered plane to his destination; unfortunately, in a turbulence, the door opened, and he fell out. fortunately there was a large haystack underneath; unfortunately there was a pitch fork in it. fortunately he missed the pitchfork. unfortunately he missed the haystack!

or as one google example goes //Okay, so fortunately I grew two feet today. Unfortunately, nothing that you own fits you anymore. Fortunately, I get to go shopping. Unfortunately, you don't have a nickel to your name. Fortunately, I did get a gift card for Roth's last Christmas. Unfortunately, it expired yesterday. Well fortunately, my Moms purse is sitting there on the counter and she's not looking and I think there's money in there. Unfortunately, she waxed the whole lot last night in Vegas.

---
there are a number of related issues here, and i'm sure hundreds of critics have had a go at articulating them. at minimum, the above scenes embody the idea of 'problems arise', and that certainly part of what i meant. even at the simple level, the routine porn account generally has few problems along the way.

more deeply, as the game suggests, a 'solution' to one problem often contains the seeds of the next one. in the case of Jane Eyre, the burning of the house certainly solves the problem of the *wife* but it injures Rochester. at the more surface and reader related level, often the writer leads the reader to think as in the haystack example "OH! she's out of the woods!" then of course the author can bring up, "unfortunately, she lost her shoes, running, and now her toes are freezing." IOW, some of the zig zag can be 'subjective,' i.e. in the reader's changing view of progress, not merely the protagonists' objective movement toward the outcome. that, of course, can, at the extreme make one feel manipulated.

it might be noted that *real life* exhibits what i've called 'zig zags'--- if not 'random walks'! fortunately-unfortunately often applies, e.g. in the choice of a good looking spouse, or a university with a world-class reputation, or the purchase of one's 'dream home.' that issue the source of the complaint against routine porn and romance--unreality.

a piece of good erotica is going to have some striking emotional/sexual connections, e.g in the standard 'conquest' or 'overcoming resistance' scenario. BUT the good writer will avoid uniform, predictable progress toward the outcome.

i liked your comment //or if I do I have small fast downs paired with bigger slower ups.//

and equally common is *large* fast downs paired with smaller, slower ups. in a romance, the loved one, a soldier is suddenly posted to the front.. etc.

in the erotica realm, i suppose, a 'fast' down is, for example one finding out the other has told a major lie.

perhaps you could post some examples of your 'take' on this phenomenon that i'm trying to get a handle on.

 

[mynameisben]

I gave up on writing erotica based on graphs long ago.

"Her breasts described two parabolas, which rose asymptotically, yet never bridged the discontinuity that was her cleavage. At the focus of each parabola were her nipples, nearly perfect in their symmetry -- a symmetry made all the more profound by circumscribing areolae with 0.93 eccentricity."

My calculus teacher liked it, but he was an odd bird.

 

[sunandshadow]

thanks, sun. my post was a bit sketchy. i looked at the vector book, reader comments, and I don't have a good idea of its contents. do you?

I've read the vector book and have a copy on my shelf, so yes I can try to summarize. This book is one of only two or three I've seen which talk about "story as thematic argument". Specifically the idea is that a story is a debate between two or more opinions that are in conflict with each other. Each opinion is represented by one or more characters. Now, the vector book starts from there and says, vector physics (i.e. the physics of objects crashing into each other) is a great model for character conflict. So, a "fortunately" might be represented by a "good guy" character traveling along on the vector of the "right motivation" she represents. But then, oh noes, a "Bad guy" character appears traveling in an opposed "wrong" direction, on a collision course for the first character!

As is usual in physics, there are three options in such a collision: shatter, bounce, or stick. If one character converts the other by force or persuasion such that they are now working together, that's graphed by the two characters sticking into a bigger more powerful object cruising along looking for a new collision. If one character is killed or otherwise removed from the story as an active force, that's the shatter type of result. If the characters each go their own separate way afterwards, that's a bounce - they may end up both continuing in their original directions but with more or less zeal, or they may end up heading off on a new direction as a result of their little fight with the other character.

So the result of the collision can be a fortunately, an unfortunately, or both (e.g. fortunately the annoying bad guy was killed, unfortunately the good guy is now distracted by guilt and uncertainty from the goal they were driving toward, OR unfortunately, the bad guy persuaded a minor good guy to abandon the good cause, so now we have to hope one of the remaining good guy vectors can accomplish the goal despite this increase in opposition, or maybe get the persuaded one to realize they've been tricked, OR fortunately the two characters who had been going somewhat useless sideways directions teamed up and together could see the goal more clearly and head straight towards it.)


As far as fast vs. slow, I was just thinking that fast things are those I don't want to dwell on because they are unpleasant, so I get them over with in as few words/pages as possible. I like the hopeful/constructive parts of the story a lot more both as a reader and as a writer, so I want to spend the majority of a story on them.

 

[Pure]

to mynameisben

I gave up on writing erotica based on graphs long ago.

"Her breasts described two parabolas, which rose asymptotically

the graph was to illustrate a concept, not be the basis for detailed plans and their execution.

incidentally, parabolas don't have asymptotes, nor, therefore, 'rise asymtotically'.

do your stories show uniform and steady progress --no setbacks-- toward their denoue'ment?

 

[mynameisben]

I gave up on writing erotica based on graphs long ago.

"Her breasts described two parabolas, which rose asymptotically

the graph was to illustrate a concept, not be the basis for detailed plans and their execution.

incidentally, parabolas don't have asymptotes, nor, therefore, 'rise asymtotically'.

do your stories show uniform and steady progress --no setbacks-- toward their denoue'ment?

Well, yeah. Parabolas have no assymptotes. I was using "assymptotically" in a slightly less rigorous manner. Her breasts exhibited assymptotic-like behavior, is what I meant. I was using geometry to illustrate a concept (satire), not to be the basis for detailed mathematical instruction.

The glaring error you should have jumped all over is eccentricity approaches 0 for a circle, not 1. To say the woman's areolae had eccentricity of 0.93 is to say they were nearly perfect parabolas.

None of my stories advance toward denoue'ment. They all take place in the good old USA.

Foghorn Leghorn alert: That's a joke, ah say, that's a joke, son.

 

[Pure]

mnibTo say the woman's areolae had eccentricity of 0.93 is to say they were nearly perfect parabolas.

actually, no.

 

[Auden James]

Zig-Zag Storytelling

Dear Pure,

After a serious reading of your two main posts in this thread that elaborate on your thoughts about the concept of “zig-zag” storytelling, I want to share with you my thoughts on that concept and some of the implications of it that you already outlined.

First, I want to give a brief account on how I understood your concept to make sure we’re talking on the same terms about this issue, and I want to add some critical remarks on your graphical configuration of it. Then I’ll consider the two questions you posed in your first post. Finally I’ll try to submit your general conception to some critical inquiry.

a. Zig-Zag Storytelling
I understood your figure as follows:

Blue graph=Unfolding of a story’s (true) outcome
Red graph= Progress of action/plot in relation to outcome

Thus there is a continuous unfolding of the (true) outcome, roughly equaling a hyperbolic movement. To my mind this unfolding takes place on a meta-level, for it is identifiable only upon reflection on the particular course of action and thus somewhat ‘artificially’ construed. The story’s action perpetually alternates its monotonicity, i.e. both approximating the point of the final (true) outcome and, in turn, distancing itself from the final (true) outcome.

What I find difficult to understand is how it’s possible that the red graph intersects with the blue graph. For what does it mean but that the plot would repeatedly exceed the actualized set of the unfolded (true) outcome. How is that thinkable? Or put another way, what do the points of the red graph that lie above the blue graph signify?

My thesis is that they signify nothing.

For example, consider the part of the red graph right before its first ‘high point’ above the blue graph. Here the plot would somehow all the time lie beyond what is actually unfolded of the final (true) outcome. Now bear in mind that it’s solely the plot/action that unfolds anything in the first place, then the only possible thing the plot could unfold at this instance is what is not the outcome. But if the plot, to make any sense of it, would on its movement up to its first ‘high’ not unfold the outcome (but instead that what is not the outcome), then it’s left opaque how any final (true) outcome could be unfolded at all (what the rising blue graph indicates), for exactly that (the unfolding of the final (true) outcome) is not the case.

My suggestion to improve your figure is to define the blue graph, in some sense, as the limit of the red graph. Thus at any figure of your x-axis the red graph would never exceed the figure of the blue graph on the y-axis. In other words: if the blue graph was the limit to the red graph, then the plot could not go beyond what is actually revealed. As a result the interpretation would be prevented that your conception calls for a plot to signify nothing.

I guess that’s your intent, too. Or are demanding something like Dadaistic erotica?

If not, my improvement suggestion would urge the interpretation that the ‘distance’ between the red graph and the blue graph would signify something like a verisimilitude of the plot/action in relation to the unfolded final (true) outcome. Hence, the greater the distance the greater the ‘falseness’ of the implied outcome, and the lower the distance the lower the ‘falseness’ of the implied outcome; and if the red graph and the blue graph are identical at some point then the plot/action implies exactly what is to be unfolded.

(I hope any of my rambling thoughts made any sense to any other brain...)

b. Questions to be answered

do you try for or plan it [i.e. zig-zag concept]?

No, I don’t plan for it. And, at least on the grounds of my interpretation of your concept, I’m not really convinced that it’d be a great help for any struggling writer. To me it seems too cerebral to be successfully put to use in a highly instinctive practice as the (actual) practice of writing fiction. Hence I see its (zig-zag concept’s) strengths mostly in the reflective, and highly cerebral, practice of literary criticism or literary studies. (And if I were to coin a term for your school of thought I’d designate it “Analytical Poetics”; analytical in the mathematical sense of the Infinitesimal calculus, or so.) Like the thing we’re ought to do here at the SDC.

what are your favorite examples in the erotic area (e.g. Lit stories)?

Well, from my point of view “Making a Devil out of Me” by en_extase is an example par excellence of the fulfillment of your conception of zig-zag storytelling. Basically there are two protagonists, the inhibited male and the teasing female. In the process of their interplay the final true outcome (his (fatal) seduction by her) comes into sight more and more clearly, whilst in the course of action that outcome is, at once, repeatedly refuted and ever-increasingly approximated. That’s exactly the movement that your zig-zag concept predicts. And, coincidentally, Making a Devil out of Me is not only a non-consent/reluctance story but magnificent erotica, too.

Hence your ‘school of thought’ might be indeed a promising school of thought in studying erotica.

that issue [i.e. the unfulfilled zig-zag storytelling] [is] the source of the complaint against routine porn and romance--unreality.

I’m not sure if one should identify ‘unreality’ with ‘unfulfilled zig-zag storytelling’. My thesis is that unreality is a consequence rather of incoherence or inconsistency (T). But before I discuss my thesis I want to say a word or two on unreality in “routine porn and romance“ in particular (a) and in fiction in general (b).

(a) What is unreal about routine porn and romance is, if ever, only to a lesser extent the lack of resistance that’s to overcome prior to the final denouement but rather its deceitful depiction of a deceptive and illusionary (text) world as its exact opposite (i.e. a truthful and candid world) despite knowing better.

A major literary device in that context is the use of kitsch and its many subforms. For example, one form of kitsch is the infantile regress, i.e. the rendering of a (deceptively) idyllic or ideal world, negating or travestying (most often grave) problems of the non-textual world. And in most instances something like Harlequin romance is a prime example of that kind of sentimental narrative. Furthermore there are (false) clichés and stereotypes or even (pseudo-)philosophies of life advocated as part of the general deceit, for example, when romance puts forward that women are cute but ultimately (intellectually) helpless creatures without the strength of a (intellectually) superior male partner, pretending that feminist or queer movements never happened.

In routine pornography the complaint is essentially the same but often skewed towards criticism of the allegedly non-literary motif of arousing and stimulating the reader. That skewed criticism is easily refuted if one takes a look at how ‘realistic’ literature is arousing the moral feelings of the reader and, of course, if one notes the (sexually) arousing passages in canonical pieces of literature from Lawrence to Chaucer and so on.

(b) In general fiction, i.e. not primarily erotic fiction, the charge of being ‘unrealistic’ most often signifies, besides the above outlined kitsch, logical shortcomings or self-referential discrepancies, e.g. deus ex machina plots, characters showing knowledge they cannot posses on basis of prior action, etc. It may also signify story elements that don’t stem from our actual non-textual world, e.g. time travel, warp drive, vampires, dragons, elfs, etc. However, in the latter case ‘unrealistic’ is most certainly used in a normative mode, for the speaker thereby expresses is condescending view on stories that incorporate such elements. If, on the contrary, the speaker wanted to appraise them, she’d talk of ‘surreal’, ‘Kafkaesque’, ‘Magic realism’, etc. It’s similar in the field of stories submitted to LIT. If a layman speaker wanted to express her condescendence, she’d denote a particular text as ‘pornography’ (or something along these line), and if she wanted to express her appraisal, she’d denote a particular text as ‘erotic literature’ (or s.a.t.l.).

(T) Thus a piece of fiction is unrealistic if it is incoherent (e.g. inherent logical flaws) or inconsistent (e.g. idealizing deceptive untrue ideologies) or both. If, in contrast, a coherent and consistent story didn’t fulfill the concept of ‘zig-zag storytelling’ but, for example, instead that of linear, non-resistant, denouement cash-out storytelling then we’ll perhaps find it boring or dull (see below on this point in reference to zig-zagging). But, however, even so not fulfilling zig-zag storytelling is neither a sufficient nor a necessary condition of unrealistic literature.

c. Critical Inquiry
At this point I shall be putting forward only a single thesis. Though a thesis that, I think, has the potential to compromise the ‘aim’ of your whole conception right from the outset. First, my basic assumption is that your ambitious aim is to formulate with your presented concept a criterion of good erotica/literature (“the best of short stories, novels and erotica (some of the best efforts at Lit) have what i call (...) a kind of zig zag pattern”). Furthermore you aim at discriminating sameness and predictability in poor writing from variety and indeterminacy in good writing by virtue of your criterion. In effect, you state that if a story fulfills the ‘zig-zag storytelling’, thereby guaranteeing variety and indeterminacy, then it’ll be good erotica. You purport a sufficient condition of good erotica.

Now my thesis is that from your purported criterion results a consequence that is contradicting your aim. Indeed, a story fulfilling your zig-zag pattern may as well be uniform and predictable. And such a story cannot by any means be a good story. That’s logically inconsistent on the grounds of your own terms (see above). In a sentence: zig-zag storytelling isn’t strictly ensuring what your purported criterion and sufficient condition of good erotica ought to ensure, that is discriminating good from bad erotica.

To illuminate my thesis I want to make recourse to “Making a Devil out of Me”. As noted above it’s a prime example of ‘zig-zag storytelling’. The seduction repeatedly reaches a high point whilst the conjectured final outcome is refuted again and again, until, after all, it is ultimately consummated in the final denouement. But if one takes a look at en_extase’s other efforts, before long one will recognize that ‘zig-zag storytelling’ is deployed in each and every story, and that the same mechanism being at work each and every time makes it all too easy for one to put one and one together, resulting in a predictable story in the particular effort and a uniform sameness of all these efforts in general. If you know one, you know them all. Zig-zagging doesn’t prevent sameness and predictability. Thus ‘zig-zag storytelling’ cannot be a sufficient condition of good erotica.

I’m looking forward to your answer because I still hold adamant affinity towards your concept. I think it’s intriguing to say the least. However, I don’t want to omit the remark that though if it’s not strong enough to yield a sufficient condition, it nonetheless might possess the explanatory power to yield a necessary condition. You may want to explore that avenue in your reply if you want. I’m hooked.

All the best,
AJ

 

[Pure]

responses, including to AJ (in part)

thanks to those who've tried to get a handle on this elusive thing i was trying to capture in my graph. it's not intended to be hyperbolic, more like "y equals the positive sq. root of x" (rotated parabola). see the attachment, below.

some, including AudenJ have suggested that a graph such as this would be
better, where the zig zag does not exceed the smooth line. perhaps they have a point. (i've incorporated that in the main figure in the attachment, and included a miniature of the old graph, for comparison.) in mathematical terms it probably does not much matter, though conceptually i like the idea that the 'ideal curve' lies in the midst of data points, as in linear regression. in practical terms, consider the fine story AJ referred to, Making a Devil out of Me, by en_extase:

http://www.literotica.com/s/making-a-devil-out-of-me

There are times when Alyssa (Pursuer) seemingly overplays her hand, esp. in the first restroom scene. he (the Pursued, with the existing partnership) comes the closest to 'escaping' her wiles at that point.

en extase is also good at keeping the suspense going, unlike the usual porn story, making the story a genuine piece of erotica. he(?) also has surprises, such as the Alyssa's demand for cuntlapping.

i have not read them, but i notice en ex's other stories often have a powerful, conniving female figure, a bit of a lilith or succubus; my impression is that this may be one of his(?) better efforts. particularly i'd compliment him on making the guy's 'male reluctance' more or less believable.

i would only fault in terms of its generic formula, which is a little unfair. in particular, the female is male fantasy figure, who happens to want what most guys want of the ideal porn date/encounter figure. still, her 'moves' have elements of surprise, and the whole story has some psychological sophistication. for example, the guy would NOT likely succumb to direct measures, and her resort to blackmail is perfect for the occasion. (again, though, it's male fantasy for the female figure to insist, first, 'suck me off, till i come.' so of us may be imagining--with delight-- running into such 'blackmail.')

 

[Pure]

reply to AJ in part

Hi AJ,
(continued)

A key point of yours [AJ], and premise for much of what you say, is the following:

AJFirst, my basic assumption is that your ambitious aim is to formulate with your presented concept a criterion of good erotica/literature (“the best of short stories, novels and erotica (some of the best efforts at Lit) have what i call (...) a kind of zig zag pattern”). Furthermore you aim at discriminating sameness and predictability in poor writing from variety and indeterminacy in good writing by virtue of your criterion. In effect, you state that if a story fulfills the ‘zig-zag storytelling’, thereby guaranteeing variety and indeterminacy, then it’ll be good erotica. You purport a sufficient condition of good erotica.

AJ quotes me accurately, then stumbles in logic. I said

“the best of short stories, novels and erotica (some of the best efforts at Lit) have what i call (...) a kind of zig zag pattern”. within the universe of stories: (x) [ 'x is best' --> 'x shows zigzag pattern']. The pattern is close be being a necessary condition [B --> Z], but is not a sufficient one [Z --> B], obviously. the 'sufficiency' claim, which AJ takes such pains and many words to refute, is not mine. nor does my using 'zig zag' to (help) discriminate good and poor stories suggest that I view it as a sufficient condition. many bad stories wander about (zig zag, in a sense) in reaching the outcome, but do so in ways that don't make sense or fail to sustain interest in the whole story. to use a favorite term of AJ, such stories lack coherence and are poor.

the 'fun' and delight and suspense in reading good, NON monotonic [zig zag] stories, is that the zigs and zags make sense and imply one another. to use the story type above--in a conflict, when one side overplays its hand, its losing strength and falling back from success is inevitable.

a good story needs many things: coherence, plot, characters, tension, freshness and surprise. the ziz zag concept is an abstract way of depicting the fluctuating and quasi realist approach to outcome. i accept AJ's point about realism, as an abused term. here, i simply refer to the fact that we all know that, in life, our main goals are generally NOT approached steadily and 'monotonically'. there are deferrals, and even reversals. further, *even where there is such a period " (winning the spouse of one's dreams w/o a hitch), the longer run often has its surprises. for example, she or he turns out to be infertile, and the quest for a child has many heartbreaks and agonizing delays. if we assume that having a child was a goal from the start, then the 'winning [the fiance'(e)]' phase did NOT represent steady progress.

 

[WifeWatchman]

Not only do I agree with you, but authors tend to use the same patterns in all their stories, as well. For myself, I'm attempting to do a couple of things to "zig zag" -- first, have TWO concurrent story lines going, switching from one to the other in a (hopefully) non-annoying way to break the monotony; and second, to write something in an unexpected way, perhaps even with some slight misdirection to temporarily distract the reader, then bring said reader back to the point with the unexpected twist.
Hope this helps...