CROSSFIRE!...an SRP debate round table

[ariosto]

CROSSFIRE!

Got an issue bound to raise someones hackles?
Something you want to say that will make the sparks fly!
Then post it here!

Assume the character of member of the the Literotica Debate Forum and have at it!

This is of course roleplay, so don't take offense.

 

[Torn_stockings]

Instigator!

What is up with the people who enjoy rape? I don't mean rough sex, I mean rape, the beating, injuring and willfully violating the body and soul of another human being? Causing extreme pain, anguish and unbearable agony and crushing humiliation to someone to prove dominance or satisfy urges. Where do those urges come from?

How healthy is it to roleplay rape? Isn't cyber just an appetizer?

I wonder if it is a weakness on the aggressors' part, perhaps a feeling of helplessness and or subhumaness which in the agressors' ignorance can only be temporarily satisfied in the physical subjugation of someone physically weaker?

 

[Lovelynice]

You seem to have run straight over one of your own points and ignored it;
roleplay rape

Roleplaying at the very least requires two players...therefore somebody is roleplaying the victim. Some want to feel helpless as well...and there are a lot of complex reasons for that. So it's possible to assume a lot of complex reasons for somebody to enjoy rape too...don't try to insult by oversimplification...


Besides, isn't it better that they do it online rather than in the Real World?

 

[ariosto]

Having been at LIT awhile I can vouche for the fact that 'rape fantasy' is one of the constants.
I have played in such threads, though I certainly have no leanings in that direction myself.
It is as LL says, roleplay and I dont think because a woman or a man want to 'act' it out here that anything should neccessarily be read into it.
There are many many threads where lesbian activities are played out though in most instances we are looking at 'bi-curious' fantasies and not a statement of real life sexual preferences.

 

[Annabelllee2003]

Tossing in my two cents...

Hmmm… Well, one thing you can always depend on me for, is an opinion…

Fantasy role-play. Dark passions. Deep fantasy. Erotica. All linked, eh?

Because we (the royal WE) indulge in these dark fantasies does that make us masochistic or sadistic? Does Barker, King or Rice go out and commit felonious acts because they write them? Surely there are secret things we all ponder as we tread through our everyday lives. Secret nightmares are unleashed in this forum, secret longings perhaps. Good erotic fiction is the ability to be a hell of a voyeur as well as being an empathetic scribe.

Secret rape fantasy? Well I never have fantasized about being beaten, brutalized, battered or scarred. But I may read it or write it for that matter. But many others besides me enjoy the fantasy of being taken with force, to be relieved of responsibility for enjoying the illicit. It has an appeal. Of that I am certain. As for the role-play rapist, I can imagine his or her feelings, but I can’t know what would go on in the mind of a true rapist or sadist, or masochist for that matter.

Because I don’t want to be brutalized, maimed or tortured in real life, can I still write of it? I think so. Does it hurt me? Does it mean I want these things to actually take place? No. Perhaps dark fantasies exist to keep us alive and more wary. More aware of the darkness that exists in all of us and that there are some that can’t keep separate the fantasy from reality. These are the ones we must be afraid of.

Ah, fantasy. Beautiful, erotic fantasy role-play. Safe haven for the exploration of ourselves or it can be an impassioned symposium for unheard of acts never to be visited in the real world.

 

[LongWalkHome]

Rape Fantasies

I'd like to respond to the question as well if I may?

Qualifications on my part? I've written more than a few N/C and rape fantasies with others and can verify that it does indeed take TWO or more to write a roleplay?

Why? Stimulation, erotification, and the chance to explore feelings and emotions that we normally wouldn't dare outside of the Lit's walls.

It's not just about physical degradation or humiliation of a single being, nor simple abuse and pain, in many threads the plot is quite simple and straight forward, in others it takes pages to define the characters and reasons they commit the "crimes" against others they do.

The reasons for writing are as diverse as the people that write them, as are any subjects at the Lit, and as appealing or disgusting to each individual that read and write here.

Dangerous? As dangerous as the individual that writes or READS it themselves. As is any subject in life...None would dare deny that religion even is a subject that has been the catalyst for wars of epic proportion and acts of violence aimed at thousands.

So in proportion? Does the ability to write and explore one of the few taboo subjects seem so terrible? In my opinion?

No

 

[little_golden]

Rape Fantasies - One Perspective

For myself, I have role played rape fantasies and kidnap/rape fantasies and have enjoyed them tremendously. (Now it seems to me that a number of men seem to really like to dominate their victims - but that's another topic. Maybe related to the de-masculation of society - but I'll leave that for another time). There is a thrill to giving up control that you would not be willing to do in real life. Playing such a fantasy with a stranger (via posts) is especially fun since you do not know the other person and the anonymity is so strong.

In polite society (real world) I could not explore such dark fantasies. I would risk possible humilation (and embrassment) for sharing them with the wrong people. I'd even be afraid to do so, in case someone perceived that as an invitation to rape me.

I believe there are many twisted and sick people in the world. However, there are many fun and safe people, who can share and play out their fantasies in the safest of environments.

My two cents....

 

[Annabelllee2003]

Re: Rape Fantasies

Well spoken LongWalkHome.


The reasons for writing are as diverse as the people that write them, as are any subjects at the Lit, and as appealing or disgusting to each individual that read and write here.

Well said indeed.

And you have made quite a few points as well Little Golden.


One thing I can't get my mind around is incest. I see many threads here dealing with that. I don't read them, nor do I enjoy the genre dealing with it in general. I really have no desire to delve into the motivations behind it. But as long as it is a part of human nature who am I to judge? Long as it is in fantasy and not my reality.

Another two cents surely...
Mmmm.. I am always afraid though, when I give my two cents, I'll get change...(laughing)

 

[little_golden]

Incest

I agree, that I too find the topic of incest much more difficult to handle. For me the opportunity to write freely about anything is an important right (or privilege). Yet, the topic of incest, I find myself unable to partake or to enjoy.

Perhaps, as a mother, I just can't imagine it. Yes, I know it happens in some circumstances in the real world, yet, I would see any adults who take advantage of their children/siblings as monsters.

Now on the other hand, I am fascinated with beastiality....

Maybe, I should stop... before I say to much.....

 

[dr_mabeuse]

There's a difference between non-consensual sex and plain violence as a substitude for sex.

I happen to love non-consensual sex. (On another site there's a classification called "Reluctant" sex: where one party (the woman usually) is initally against it but ends up enjoying it.) I think it's terrifically sexy and very dramatic. And despite the opinions of the PC crowd, I think it connects with basic issues of masculine and feminine sexuality.

I'm not into humiliation, but I understand that some people get off on it. Fine with me, just deal me out.

But there's no reason why this stuff has to be done in a spirit of hatred against women. I write mostly non-consensual or reluctant stuff, and there's no reason why you can't do that kind of sex while still being a real woman-lover. The desire to have a woman sexually is not anti-woman. And the desire of a woman to be taken with passion by a man is not anti-woman either.

On the other hand, I have seen porn that is simply pain and torture disguised as sexual activity. When you have a woman penetrated with a baseball bat or being burned with hot pincers, you're not dealing with sex anymore. You're dealing with torture, and you can count me out.

---dr.M.

 

[Annabelllee2003]

SLAP!

Well, my hips just slammed shut dear Dr. at the thought of that baseball bat. Ouch.

I would hazzard a guess that there are those among us that enjoy the debasement of women, or men for that matter. And that is what gets them off.

Let them eat cake and let them find the perfect masochist to share it with. I skip that dessert.

Frankly, it chills my blood. As does sex involving children and incest (you scored a direct hit with that Golden...)

I have enough dark fantasies of my own... And damned if more aren't surfacing.

I say I don't judge, but surely a part of me does just that... (Sheepish grin). Perhaps I just try to place myself where I can live with myself, if that makes sense. Or try to justify my own fantasies... Hmmm.

 

[Torn_stockings]

Great replies, thanks for helping me understand the draw to rape fantasies. Long Walk Home, I really appreciated your insight especially, it was well spoken and mindful. Yours as well, little golden Annabellee and Dr. M. You all have given me the opportunity to re-examine some of my preconcieved notions on rape roleplay. I consider the actual r/t act of rape to be akin to torture, Dr. M. So the good point you made has me thinking that rape roleplay isn't even really rape, it's just rough sex?

Lovelynice, here are answers to your pleasant little rebuttal:
'You seem to have run straight over one of your own points and ignored it;
roleplay rape '.......no, actually I did not. *chuckles.*I asked what is up with enjoying rape, and questioned whether roleplaying it was just an appetiser.

'Roleplaying at the very least requires two players...therefore somebody is roleplaying the victim.' .......Yes, I'm aware of that point as well, and adressed my posts to both types of parties. *s*

' Some want to feel helpless as well...and there are a lot of complex reasons for that. So it's possible to assume a lot of complex reasons for somebody to enjoy rape too'
..........Again yeah, and...do you have an opinion on the actual crime itself? How it entails more than being tossed around and screwed? Often, harsh beatings and Physical injury with the threat of death is involved in a crime such as a rape attack.*still amazed at having my post read and ignored at the same time*

'...don't try to insult by oversimplification... ' ........After reading the defensive and retaliatory tone of your rebuttal I ask where the insulting is coming from! If you read the post maybe you would be able to see that I was curious and offered my own reasons for asking, as well as my perspective. I never came right out and insulted people. If I were to have tried to insult, that would have been made very clear.


'Besides, isn't it better that they do it online rather than in the Real World?' .......... Oh my goodness. *hand to my forhead* Perhaps, perhaps not. My questions also included " Isn't cyber an appetizer?"

My post wasn't a a personal call for war, lovelynice, my post was about was tossing some spices into the stew of this forum. Please, Relax and try not to take it so personally.

ariosto, thank you for the warm welcome. I will look forward to trying my hand *g* so to speak, at this writing thing.
~ ~

 

[Arkontheroof]

I share T_S's concerns, actually - though it seems to be a minority opinion!

Here's my rationale....

For me there is a corpus of experience/subject-matter which I consider erotic, a corpus re which I am neutral, and a third corpus which has a big "never go there" sign on it. The last set of experiences isn't huge - it includes children, animals, rape and more-or-less nothing else.

What I find erotic... I find erotic. What I don't, I don't. It's so blindingly obvious that it's not even worth dubbing a tautology. If I find it "antierotic" then I don't want to RP it through, don't want to do it, don't really want to read about it.

Now, I'll say flat out that I find power-games and playing with notions of power in sexual relationships intellectually intriguing and viscerally exciting - but if someone MEANS "no", that that's a hard-and-fast barrier, not to be crossed. One advantage of Lit is that it allows you to know absolutely that if someone says "no" but means "yes" ('cos you get them writing "but though I said no over and over, what I really wanted..." or cos you can PM to check) - so that's an area you can explore more easily here than IRL. But no still means no.

Now, if a woman wants to fantasise about being raped, that's up to her, though I can't understand it. I'm somewhat more concerned, however, about guys who fantasise about genuinely raping.

There is, more broadly, the issue of how people "use" Lit - and I think it's worth keeping in mind that when we tell stories we mythologise reality, and reform it in our own minds - even more powerfully in a shared-writing (e.g. SRP) context. Now I can see that for some people this could be a way in which they move from fantasy to reality... but this is a much broader issue.

I think people need to NOT take their stories too seriously. And I suspect that most people don't. But there will always be some prat out there who might - which is my concern...

... Oh dear that was a ramble, wasn't it....

- Ark

 

[LongWalkHome]

Ark: That's the beauty of writing at the Lit. FREE SPEECH!!!

Your opinion matters as much as the next person albeit a minority it is still yours and heard. One of the major rules here is NOT to control your cowriters characters without their permission, not to force them into anything that they are not entirely willing or comfortable to write as well.

Written words are silent, they can't be forced on you as spoken ones can, you need only to stop reading them and their effect is negated...

And another key word? Fantasy. Those I write with all agree in advance, it is first and foremost, Fantasy. (Your mention of PM's is a good point as well, if you're not SURE your cowriter is comfortable with the subject matter being played out? Ask!)

No one here is trying to condone the real life act of rape, nor skate around it by calling it something else, but this IS a fantasy writing site for all subjects.

If you don't enjoy the subject, no one can force you into or force you to write OR read it...

 

[SexyChele]

Hello guys and gals! My first time here and what am I stepping into? Oh well, I always like a good debate!

I think LongWalkHome's last post hit it spot on - it's F A N T A S Y. Once you lose sight of that, then you are stepping into realms best left alone.

I've roleplayed rape in SRP and in real life. And no, I'm not talking the "Oh-my-I-don't-want-to-get-away-from-me-oooh-wait-I-think-no-I-know-I really-do-like-this!" type of thing. I'm talking actually struggling, being forced, hitting (me him, not him me), very rough sex. Now, the man I did this with knew my limitations. He also would not, under any circumstances hit me, beat me, or cause serious physical injury. The "rules", as they were, were somewhat laid out non-verbally. It was understood that I would struggle, hit, scratch, whatever was deemed necessary. (Hell, he was bigger and stronger than me, though I did manage to lay a couple of good hits and scratch to his arm)

What did I get out of it? It was a total and incredible rush. Now, some might argue that since I knew he would not really hurt me, it really wasn't "rape", and I would agree with them. It was a roleplay, taken farther than most people's. However, I would NOT recommend doing this with some one unless you know them very, very well. Better than you know yourself!

I am not saying I want to be raped. I am not discounting rape. Rape is an act of violence, not love or caring. My disgust for rapists goes beyond what I can merely write. However, fantasy is not really the same thing. And as long as both partners (key word is both, here) are into it, what's the harm?

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Chele, if your experience was an incredible rush, as you say, then don't you think that it was by definition "reluctant" or rough sex and not real rape?

 

[ariosto]

Hey this has caught on beyond my expectations!
Very well thought out and insightful comments by everyone.
Lit by it's very nature is a marvelous place for establishing a precedent of open sexual dialogue between the genders that is found very rarely in real life.

Let's keep it rolling.

 

[SexyChele]

Chele, if your experience was an incredible rush, as you say, then don't you think that it was by definition "reluctant" or rough sex and not real rape?

Probably the actual act of having sex might be. Except that I wouldn't say it falls under your definition of reluctant sex. By the time we got to that point, I wanted it. Not that when he started I didn't want it and then did. Make sense?

But the part leading up to that point, the scuffling, the struggling, the actual hitting, was more than being reluctant. Somehow, for me, that has a softer sound to it. Unless your definition is different, that is.

 

[Thor's Hammer]

Now this is my kind of genre!!!! I have enjoyed, thoroughly, the intelligent (my tongue is not in my cheek) discourse and discussion on the first topics. Since it has been covered so articulately, I will make brevity the hallmark of my comments.

Topic________Real time_______Roleplaying

Rape________good lord, NO____maybe (weg)

Incest_______(throwing up)_____(retching)

under age________"_______________"

kama sutra____working on it_____gold star
positions

Ariosto, this was a wonderful idea...even if it might not fit the 'model' of SRP. Wait until we move to politics, folks.....LOL.

 

[Lovelynice]

Reply to Torn_Stockings

(( I wonder if it is a weakness on the aggressors' part, perhaps a feeling of helplessness and or subhumaness which in the agressors' ignorance can only be temporarily satisfied in the physical subjugation of someone physically weaker?))

Sorry, Torn_Stockings, but to many what you wrote in the above quote would be considered an insult...because it is an over-simplification

....not that it really bothers me, as I'm in neither category as aggressor or victim fantasist.

What I was trying to point out, without the bother of pedantic detail, was that not a single thing about this is clear-cut...not when it's examined closely. Unfortunately a lot of criminal rapes become defined as crimes due to misunderstandings as well...I'm not saying that actual rape isn't a crime, but far too often the rapist felt that the victim was leading him on, and asking for it. Or he thought that rough was the only way a girl liked it. Or that no, really doesn't mean no, (and sometimes No means Yes, and sometimes No means No). Cultural attitudes, misconceptions, misunderstandings, alcohol or other perception-distorting influences, the explanations could fill entire libraries....and they do.

As SexyChele pointed out with her little mention of an interlude of what could be called rape, but might have been just rough foreplay leading to wild sex, the borders of this issue become very confusing. I've had similar experiences, and knowing the guys involved didn't intend to be nasty about the whole thing makes it more confusing. I've known couples that nearly always had violent fights, punches, kiks, biting, near-strangulation, then had the most passionate sex afterwards and thought (despite the bruises) that this was a completely normal way of doing things. I knew a chinese girl whose idea of good sex involved being burnt with cigarrettes beforehand.

Now these folks didn't think there was anything wrong with how they made love and whoopie, but imagine what happens when a guy or girl who has been in such relationships for a long time behaves when they want to do a bit of foreplay and rough sex with somebody else....

It would be nice if when a guy and girl meet that they discuss such things beforehand...you know, something along the lines of "Hi, my name's Jim and I believe that all good fucking requires that we beat the living shit out each other beforehand, scream death-threats, throw heavy objects, and then fuck like rabbits wherever we happen to be....", and the girl can reply with, "My name's Tracy, and I prefer to romantic accessories at first, then pretending that I don't want sex when in fact I'm really as so horny that it hurts, and secretly I love a good spanking and being tied-up but I'll never ever publicly admit it to anyone...even my best friend!"
....but it doesn't work that way.

So, somebody gets EXTREMELY upset about having to go to hospital, and the guy goes to jail thinking, "....but she acted as if she wanted it", without a clue that he got it all wrong. There are women rapists too, which shouldn't be forgotten either.

It's all too complex to really get a handle on, so I suppose society simply has to struggle along with laws that are always going to be inadequate. Of course, the definition of rape is different in every nation as well.

btw, I didn't ignore what you said at all...but I don't always have the time to explain every single pedantic detail as to why I thought you were over-simplifying it and demonstrating a lack of thought on the subject...when others might have the time to do so instead.

That ends my reply on the subject...anything else you want to argue about, do it on another subject....please don't be annoyingly pedantic about little detail of what I type....I don't have as much time to type as you apparently have, and I see no reason to get obsessive over anything that I say.

 

[Snork Maiden]

I know I was going and I am but I did feel that this topic at least needed my unwelcome comments.

What part of the word Rape don't people understand ?

Even in role play you just can't role play Rape, it is impossible.

You might think you can but the very act of being a WILLING participant in the thread removes your objectivity.

Rape is quite simply the ultimate violation of a persons will. You can't even imagine what that does to you physically or mentally unless it has happened to you. In many cases it is worse than homicide. It destroys the lives of not only the victim but their spirit family and relationships.

Anyone that finds this sort of thing erotic needs a Shrink. It goes beyond domination, it goes beyond humiliation, in short it is the basest act any person can do to another without taking that persons life, and lets not forget in many case that is exactly what happens.

What is acceptable rape, A father abusing his teenage daughter, a teacher abusing the trust of his or her student, or the example of the stalker/stranger who selects and monitors his victim before striking. The answer is there is no acceptable rape.

Yes I agree there is room for bondage, room for humiliation room for reluctant sex - Rape is just not in there, like pedophilia it is vile. It should not be role - played

Just as I have read things in erotic stories here and learnt many things that I have tried, perhaps the stories and imaginative minds that create such rape attempts may feed the minds of those who actually do commit these acts.

and now I am gone..

 

[prometheus 2]

Just plain fun

What's wrong with that? When I first came here a couple of years ago I thought what a fun place to be. and since I'm still around I must be. Having fun that is or I wouldn't be here. Having it. It's strictly for entertainment and like going to a football game a wrestling match walking in the woods or having sex, when I leave here I go on with my life doing the things that need to be done to survive. some of them fun some not. While I am here, the feelings, the way I express myself, the fantasy I am involved in I pretty much leave here. I like to leave here laughing or at least smiling so I choose roles and threads that give me that opporunity. Some of them can get pretty weird but I always try to see the humor and express my desire to use it. Any thoughts on this rather simplistic country boy attitude?

 

[Lovelynice]

ariosto
......I think the SRP really is the wrong forum for this subject.

 

[Torn_stockings]

Hey lovelynice...

""That ends my reply on the subject...anything else you want to argue about, do it on another subject....please don't be annoyingly pedantic about little detail of what I type....I don't have as much time to type as you apparently have, and I see no reason to get obsessive over anything that I say.""


That last post of yours sure looks like it took a Lot of Time to type. Thank you!

You sure have a...healthy...sense of um, self confidence. I think thats' great. No offense though, but I actually don't obsess over what you say.

One more reminder, a quote from me that you apparently forgot to read before arguing at me:

((My post wasn't a a personal call for war, lovelynice, my post was about was tossing some spices into the stew of this forum. Please, Relax and try not to take it so personally. ))

To everyone else...what a great collection of opinions and insight. Great to read stuff written as opinion and not indignant rebuttals. I am so glad to have found this site.

Ariosto, did this all start just because of silly, little newbie me? *innocent wide eyed lash batting*
~toodles~

 

[Torn_stockings]

P.S.

HIGH FIVES, SnorkMaiden!!!!!