Critique Workshop

[Angeline]

Let the new poems thread be for recommendations. This one is for critiques. Put a poem here only if you want serious critique--feedback and suggestions for improvement. Here are the rules (especially for those of you who profess to love rules).

General

There is a 48-hour limit on response time. So two days from the poem's submission, we move on. If you want to comment after that, use a pm or feedback.


Submitters
1. Don't post a poem here if you have no intentions of at least honestly *considering* the feedback and recommendations you get.

2. Don't take it personally if reviewers find problems that need correcting; they're only trying to help.

3. A simple thank you, even if you're not making the changes recommended, is always nice.

Reviewers
1. Be constructive. 'It's genius' doesn't help anymore than 'it stinks,' if that's all you have to say. If you come in to critique, try to justify your opinion.

2. Don't expect the submitter to take your changes. And don't take it personally if they don't. This is all about learning and growth as writers for all of us.

3. Be nice. If you really feel the poem is irredeemable, you can still say so without making the other person want to cry. We want people to grow, not feel so ashamed of their 'inability to produce a decent poem' that they put the pen down and run away.

Ok. Enough with the rules. Poetry please.

 

[Angeline]

*

 

[WickedEve]

I like it a lot and don't see much to fiddle with but fiddle I will -- whether Rome burns or not. Anyway, I question a few of your line breaks. I know you want to emphasize: that Sylvia or Leena, "Mama" and red-faced but do you really think they need to stand alone the way they do?

 

[Angeline]

*

 

[WickedEve]

Better. I think it's ready for submitting. Oh wait. Shouldn't sharklike be shark-like?
This really is a great poem.

 

[Angeline]

Compounds with 'like'

can be spelled solid. got that one memorized from my editor days.

Thanks again for the review, Eve.

 

[Senna Jawa]

Re: Gracias Eve!

It's a fine story. It could be told (better?) as a short story. But let's check it as a poem. (My comments would apply in either case).

Sy-Leen's

What does this title do? Try harder. Would Sy-Leen's boutique do? If boutique is ok but not for the title then you may use it inside, to avoid the repetitive use of word "Shop".

The little shop is crammed
with mysterioso gray boxes
lettered in shaky marker--
"Darla #A1786-34"
"Chrissy #44642-Long Line."

Angeline, be suspicious (paranoid!) of adjectives-opinions and of the passive mode and of "is". "Little" buys nothing. The poem either leaves us with the impression of the littleness of the store or not. Proclaiming it is antipoetic. Is "mysterioso" simply "misterious"? Or is it an actual name for these boxes? If the latter is true than fine, if the earlier then even the exotic sound does not justify this another adjective. But what you may do is to mention that the lirical subject (the "I" of the poem) was mystified. Simple:

    gray boxes
    lettered in shaky marker--
    "Darla #A1786-34"
    "Chrissy #44642-Long Line"
    crammed the shop

would be a clean and strong way to say the same. It's that simple.

Some cardboard lids tilt,
replaced in haste,
revealing clear plastic and lace,
peeping in fractional comment
on the embarrassing possibility
that Sylvia or Leena,

sharklike Sy-Leen proprietresses,
might actually pull a frippery
out of its hidey hole
and turn it into a

BRA
and try it on
ME.

This stanza doesn't sound like poetry at all. The very start "Some" shows poetic impotency, it's prosy. Same for the following it "...ed" + double "...ing" construction--prosy again.

"in fractional comment / on the embarrassing possibility" is an embarrassing talk-talk. "sharklike Sy-Leen proprietresses" is talk again, meaningless too--the reader has no idea in what way they are sharklike: do they charge too much money? Do they look like sharks because their teeth are sharklike? Or the way they move, swiftly approaching customers, pressing them into buying their stuff?

Your story has a nice drama to it, I don't mean to sound harsh on your poem. Just have another look at your piece, Angeline. Replace easy shortcuts with real observations, which you've already made--but have them in the poem, pass them on to the reader. Don't tell your readers: I was a shy, young girl etc. but simply report the scene, so that the readers will conclude: oh, what a VIVID scene with a shy, young girl.

Changing is hard enough
without toothy rouged grinners
sharing snarky glances
over rhinestone catseye frames,
their pink smocks bristling
with authority and encircled
with my personal nooses--
the measuring tapes.

another unfortunate proclamation: is hard enough without. No wonder that it is prosy again and cliched. It is followed by excellent material. Don't spoil it.

I'll stop now. I hope, Angeline, that you will work on and fulfill the considerable promise of this piece. Turn it into a true poem, free of faults which are dragging it down. Set your standards higher!

Regards,

        Senna Jawa

"Darling, I think Mama brought
too soon, mmmm?" says one
interchangeable smock,
lassoing me and flicking
off the tape.

Mama is unaware and conversing
with an elderly babushka
near the back of the shop
by the crooked green curtain,
which gaps slightly to reveal
another thousand boxes.

A lacy bounty is plucked
from darkness, and I am
red-faced

under assault by either Sy or Leen--
poked, prodded, shimmied,
and adjusted to fitted bliss,
then escorted, bridelike,
to my reflection,

which staring back
with more confidence
than I'll ever muster,
whispers

'Woman.'

 

[WickedEve]

Some cardboard lids tilt,
replaced in haste,
revealing clear plastic and lace,
peeping in fractional comment
on the embarrassing possibility
that Sylvia or Leena,

I'm tickled with your post, SJ. I'm picking up much info here.

Would this be a better way to write the first part of this stanza:

Cardboard lids tilt in haste,
clear plastic and lace
peep in fractional comment

 

[Senna Jawa]

I'm tickled with your post, SJ. I'm picking up much info here.

Would this be a better way to write the first part of this stanza:

Cardboard lids tilt in haste,
clear plastic and lace
peep in fractional comment

If "haste" means that lids were tilt by people who worked in the shop (and I think that that's how one should read it) then "tilt" is good. But "in fractional comment" is still a heavy handed antropomorphisation.

(Of course now one has to check the stanza in a relation to the whole text with respect to style, phrasing, melody, ...)

It's easy for you, Eve, to say "tickled". Ange thinks "oh no, not again! How annoying!" I am fond of Angeline's AV anyway; did you see that it gets better and better?

Best regards,

 

[Senna Jawa]

My turn to let evr'body to get at me. Just a moment. I'd like to mention that for about a week, because that's how long it took Lit to accept my EDIT, my poem nothing will help was missing a tiny word but it's fixed now (I've sent the fix right away). I hope that my poem below, "19th hole", is not a perfect illustration for "nothing will help".

Here it is, ready for your merciless banging (even if there is a chance that I might disagree Let me mention that: "Wiltel" was a company (a division of "Williams Telecommunication"), and "19-th hole" was a local bar.




  19-th hole




        i didn't know that i will go where
        Mona-bringmebeer-noLisa
        passes her nights with flying colors

        at the thursday entering friday
        in the door of the 19-th hole
        i see inside
        the wiltel crowd
        has invaded
        Texas by Night

        nonwiltel decent crowd around
        watches the recent sport horrors
        on the tube
        Mona-bringmebeer-noLisa
        cruises thru the night with flying colors
        at our table i hear
        oh no! shop talk, computers. that mike
        one of the mikes
        he won't touch beer
        I drive he says
        he drives me sober

        the regulars drink and talk
        in groups and solo
        Mona-bringmebeer-noLisa
        passes the night with flying colors
        our Russ in the corner does
        a decent job on his drums
        while around the green table
        next to ours
        guys & gals shoot pool
        the blonde under her black dress
        is pregnant
        the regulars
        drink & talk
        in groups & solo
        Mona-bringmebeer-noLisa
        passes the night with flying colors
        yes please i'll have one
        any cold beer will do
        the night is hot outside
        no i don't need no frosted glass
        thankuthanku-urwelcomeurwelcome

        a bob from seattle drinks with us
        he can't care less for texas
        but he fits!
        as he would in any state
        of the union -- his girlfriend
        pure joy is all around the room
        and all around her bob

        they leave soon
        followed by the wiltel guys
        only Russ
        stays attached to his drums
        while Mona-bringmebeer-noLisa
        passes the night with flying colors
        and brings me back to life



wlodzimierz holsztynski ©
    1992-07-18

Oh, well, ... regards,

 

[WickedEve]

SJ, I'm sure Angeline is tickled in her own way. There's nothing more valuable to a poet than an honest critique. Over time, I've come to cherish those. I want my poetry to be as good as possible. I want another set of eyes reading it and pointing out what's not working. So I'm tickled and I bet Angeline is tickled and... are you tickled, Angeline? lol

 

[Angeline]

Ticklish

heeeheeeheee.

Stop that tickling you two! I apologize for not coming back to this thread sooner, but the past few days have been crazy for me.

I like a lot of the changes that you've mentioned. Good points, SJ, especially about the add-nothing adjectives--that's a first-draft sin I'm often guilty of, as well as the kind of error that's a good argument for fresh eyes on the poem.

Some of the changes I'm less sure I want to make, but I respect you both as wonderful critical reviewers, so I need to think about them more and show the poem to a few other people.

As to the cardboard lids (those pesky things ), I find an editorial problem raised by the change suggested. The lids are not tilting themselves in haste--they are tilted because the box was put back on the shelf in haste. I was trying, with that statement, to suggest an image of disorder, of boxes being pulled down and put back in the rush of trying to make a sale. Maybe that's too much meaning to expect from one little statement, maybe I need to rewrite it somehow...we'll see.

Thank you both again. I always do want honest critique--not much point otherwise, is there?

 

[WickedEve]

Okay, I have comments, SJ. But I feel as though I should approach you and your poetry with a clove of garlic and some holy water. lol

First, I love the "names" you gave some of your characters.

This stanza placed a very vivid image in my mind:
a bob from seattle drinks with us
he can't care less for texas
but he fits!
as he would in any state
of the union -- his girlfriend
pure joy is all around the room
and all around her bob
I could see this guy having a drink, being friendly and fitting in while his girlfriend is lively, and I'm guessing, very affectionate with her bob.

I'm not sure if I like the repetition of "passes the night with flying colors." I found myself wishing for one or two less.

"thankuthanku-urwelcomeurwelcome" could be confusing for a reader who doesn't know that you use "u" and "ur" in your writings. Of course, anyone could figure it out after looking at it for a moment. So I guess that's not a problem.

"Let me mention that: "Wiltel" was a company (a division of "Williams Telecommunication"), and "19-th hole" was a local bar. " This is okay to mention here but I hope you don't include this if you submit the poem. I don't think an explanation is needed.

"i didn't know that i will go where"
Should it be i didn't know that i would go where?

Why is Mona, Russ, and Texas by Night capitalized when everything else is not? I see that 3 stanzas down you have texas.

"I drive he says" That one I is in caps and the rest lower case.

 

[OT]

Over all, I enjoyed it.

A couple of comments:

at the thursday entering friday

this line sounds awkward to my ear.

If it mean's around midnight, I'm not sure the extra bit of cleverness adds to the poem.
The rest of the scene felt more like happy-hour time frame.

has invaded
Texas by Night

Cliche' ?

nonwiltel decent crowd around
watches the recent sport horrors
on the tube

these lines too, are awkward to read.
But on the other hand, even though I stumbled over them,
I sort of like the compactness.

"horrors" seems too strong for watching highlights.
Instead of blending in with the busy bar scene,
using such a strong word draws too much attention.

I don't know what "passes her nights with flying colors" represents.


I especially liked "Mona-bringmebeer-noLisa". Very nice!