critique and opposing opinions

[DarlingNikki]

So I'm taking this writing workshop. I submitted a piece for critique and got some nice compliments and helpful constructive suggestions.

Anyway. There were a couple of passages that some people underlined and said they loved and some people crossed out entirely.

What does this mean? I realize tastes vary, but it seemed both sides felt equally strongly about their positions and I'm just wondering how to deal with it. I really try to be open to people's comments and after consideration I go with what I like best, whether it's my original thought or the new suggestion. What do I do in this case? I feel like my opinion is wavering now. I'm not sure what to think.

 

[KillerMuffin]

You have to do what you think is best for the story. If you have time for it, give yourself a week or so distance from the project and then re-read the critiques with a fresher perspective. Otherwise, consider the critiques in conjunction with plot and character development. Is the passage necessary for either? Is it window dressing?

If it's that big of a problem for you, then list the salient points of the opposing arguments and see which one sounds more reasonable.

In this case, go with your gut feeling. It's usually right. If you can't hear your gut, get a little less reasonable.

 

[wildsweetone]

What she *up arrow* said. (Hi KM )

Some thoughts from me...

What was your original aim in your writing?

Did you achieve that aim with the particular paragraph included, or
Was it only achieved with the paragraph altered or left out?

Did any of those 'marking' your work, give solid reasons for their editing? If I feel strongly enough about an edit I've suggested, then I will always have good strong reason why I edit it in a particular way. Sometimes it takes a 'discussion' between an author and me to pin down exactly why I suggest an edit - my skills are limited.

If it's possible, go back to those same people and ask them to spell out their reasoning behind 'liking', 'changing' or 'deleting' some parts. No 'editing' should be done without justification.

Obviously it is an important piece of writing to you, therefore it's worth following up.

Something to remember, an author can give one piece of work to a dozen 'editors' and each editor can put different marks in different places.

Hope these thoughts help a little.

wso

 

[McKenna]

.

 

[KillerMuffin]

It's not necessarily a style issue. It might be a transition paragraph or descriptive narrative. Both tend to stick out like sore thumbs in the midst of the rest of the prose. They frequently get picked on by critics because they are the weakest links in the narrative chain.

 

[Pure]

Hi DN,

I think KM and WSO make some good points about finding out the 'reasons' and weighing them.

That said, you might ask: Are the editors also writers? or What do they have to their credit? If you look at the finished stories they've written or edited, which are to your liking?

Are any of the stories they written/edited published? What are those like? Any of them like yours?

IOW I'm trying to see what the editor is doing and what 'objective' merit he or she might have.

Lastly, there is a point at which {{Added: more clearly, 'beyond which' }} no 'reasons' can be given. A person has an artistic 'vision' which may or may not suit you and your vision. Whether you should embrace theirs may depend on some of the issues, above.

If they've written or edited published works very much along the lines of yours, you might, at an early point, defer to them, if you decide they know what they're doing.

Lastly, nothing prevents you from getting other views, but then your dilemmas may become tri-lemmas.

In closing, remember there are works of art that have two versions, or two endings and critics continue to disagree a hundred years later. With a work of poetry: One prefers the stanza [word] in; one, out. There may never be an objective answer. Only the stature of the critic can help determine the 'validity' of their points.

J.

 

[LadyJane]

Depends on how specific the criticism is. If it's just something like, "this works" or "I don't like this scene," it's hard to tell how you could change it to make it better and chances are the critic doesn't have a clue either.

I've been entering some of my mainstream romance into contests; the first contest I entered where I submitted my first chapter elicited some different responses. However, there were a couple of things that all three judges negatively remarked upon - you better believe I changed those aspects of the my writing or the story.

 

[The_Fool]

Hopefully it's not gratuitous sex. I hate it when someone says to take out that gratuitous sex passage.



Not much help am I.

When you start looking at slashing whole paragraphs, that means that someone is convinced that the excised portion either adds little or nothing or possibly detracts from the meaning of the whole. Look at the work as a whole and then look at the sections in question. Can the story live without it? Are important points lost without it? Do the sections detract from the main thought?

The other common issue is the terse versus verbose argument. I have seen those arguments go on for years when I was a tech writer.

Final comment. Unless someone is buying it. YOU have the final say and know best what should be in the story...

Now...back to the gratuitous sex...

 

[wildsweetone]

...Lastly, there is a point at which no 'reasons' can be given. A person has an artistic 'vision' which may or may not suit you and your vision. Whether you should embrace their may depend on some of the issues, above...

J.

Pure,

Much as I don't wish to disagree, I have to say that any editor that changes work without good reason is hardly somebody I would voluntarily hand my own work to.

If you're meaning the writing was to a particular market, and that writing does not meet the criteria of the market, then the editor would surely indicate that as a reason.

There should not be alterations made without good reason.

But of course, I'm just an amateur and sadly lacking in qualified skills. I'm just giving my own opinion. The real world of writing of course, may very well be vastly different.

wso

 

[McKenna]

.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Darling Nikki said:

There were a couple of passages that some people underlined and said they loved and some people crossed out entirely.

Are you sure they weren't highlighting them? Or, they may have been underline them and had shaky hands.

 

[Pure]

Hi WSO

Pure said, ...Lastly, there is a point at which no 'reasons' can be given. A person has an artistic 'vision' which may or may not suit you and your vision. Whether you should embrace their may depend on some of the issues, above...

J.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


wso said,

Pure,

Much as I don't wish to disagree, I have to say that any editor that changes work without good reason is hardly somebody I would voluntarily hand my own work to.

I think I could have been clearer if I had said, "a point beyond which no reasons can be given."

First, unless you surrender control, the editor can only suggest, not impose changes.

Second, I didn't say that the editor *had* no good reason, simply that at some point no further explanation may be there, for the writer who questions.

The question is a general one in art. A teacher can say, "Don't put such a large tree right there in the painting, it will be unbalanced." Maybe they are right. But there can't be much further discussion. The artist can say, "I'll put it there anyway," and only time and other artists and critics will have a 'final say' IF there is one. Similarly an editor can say, "Too much time in the 'back story'; cut it by half. That amount of text makes things unbalanced and is unnecessary." There can't be much further argument. It's like talking to an interior designer who says, "a little less red would mellow out this room."

The seasoning of the editor will determine if she or he is 'right', whatever that means (i.e., will later thoughtful readers and critics agree).

Lastly I might add: An editor is not necessarily a tutor. S/he can make suggestions; they can be accepted or rejected. If a person argues too much--e.g., about every comma-- or rejects too many suggestions, I simply may not wish to continue; whatever their abilities and mine, there is no good working relationship.

They may be 'right' in the sense that later critics will have no problem if things are left as is. Fine. They may also run into critics, and editors with power, that say, "Fix it or else." I prefer to deal with people who have already heard something like the latter, for then they may be willing to listen.

Lastly, as to
//I'm just an amateur and sadly lacking in qualified skills.//

I greatly admire your skills. There is also an area of competence that they apply in; I was suggesting that a writer try to assess that, and try to assess what your [the editor's] skills may contribute to his/her artistic vision, which, in the best case, might be a good deal.



Note: I am a professional editor, but not of fiction. My views may be reflective of that experience. For fiction, I offer, at times, unpaid (so far) advice, mostly as to the basic mechanics and polish (grammar and style) of the writing. When more of the edited fiction I've looked at, is sold, I will start charging there--i.e., I will assume my suggestions have some 'validity.'

 

[wildsweetone]

some thoughts...

Pure said...

'I think I could have been clearer if I had said, "a point beyond which no reasons can be given."

First, unless you surrender control, the editor can only suggest, not impose changes.'

DarlingNikki handed her work over during a 'workshop'. I would expect that if a person was unable to give 'reasonable' reason for a specific comment, then in such a situation they probably would not have made the comment in the first place.


Pure said...

'Second, I didn't say that the editor *had* no good reason, simply that at some point no further explanation may be there, for the writer who questions.'

Yes I see your point. Some editors simply say that a piece of work is not acceptable and give no explanation for the reasoning. It happens all the time via the good old 'rejection' slip in the mail, so I'm told.


Pure said...

'The question is a general one in art. A teacher can say, "Don't put such a large tree right there in the painting, it will be unbalanced." Maybe they are right. But there can't be much further discussion. The artist can say, "I'll put it there anyway," and only time and other artists and critics will have a 'final say' IF there is one. Similarly an editor can say, "Too much time in the 'back story'; cut it by half. That amount of text makes things unbalanced and is unnecessary." There can't be much further argument. It's like talking to an interior designer who says, "a little less red would mellow out this room."'

As an author it's good to have confidence in one's own work and the ability to be assertive where others are concerned. It's also an idea to be openminded and willing to learn. Sometimes, somebody may make a worthy comment.


Pure said...

'The seasoning of the editor will determine if she or he is 'right', whatever that means (i.e., will later thoughtful readers and critics agree).'

Sorry I don't understand what you mean in the brackets.


Pure said...

'Lastly I might add: An editor is not necessarily a tutor. S/he can make suggestions; they can be accepted or rejected. If a person argues too much--e.g., about every comma-- or rejects too many suggestions, I simply may not wish to continue; whatever their abilities and mine, there is no good working relationship.'

Granted. Though there is always more to be learned and often tenacity on behalf of the author will ensure that author learns more than an author who accepts everything said first time.


Pure said...

'They may be 'right' in the sense that later critics will have no problem if things are left as is. Fine. They may also run into critics, and editors with power, that say, "Fix it or else." I prefer to deal with people who have already heard something like the latter, for then they may be willing to listen.'

For me, I prefer an author who wants to improve. I spend a lot of time and effort in offering editing help. I prefer to spend it on an author who will discuss and make me think in the process. I learn that way too. As for the 'Fix it or else' kind of comment, there are different ways of saying the same thing.


Pure said...

'I greatly admire your skills. There is also an area of competence that they apply in; I was suggesting that a writer try to assess that, and try to assess what your [the editor's] skills may contribute to his/her artistic vision, which, in the best case, might be a good deal.

Thank you.


Pure said...

'Note: I am a professional editor, but not of fiction. My views may be reflective of that experience. For fiction, I offer, at times, unpaid (so far) advice, mostly as to the basic mechanics and polish (grammar and style) of the writing. When more of the edited fiction I've looked at, is sold, I will start charging there--i.e., I will assume my suggestions have some 'validity.''

Your suggestions may have validity, but the author may not necessarily follow them. Does that make your suggestions less valid, or your time less worthy of 'payment'?


DarlingNikki, I apologise for getting somewhat sidetracked from the original intent of your thread, the discussion has evolved a little and Pure has made some interesting points. Should you wish us to open a new thread, please let me know.

 

[Pure]

WSO,
I'm not sure I'm getting my point across, but thanks for reminding me of Nikki's question, which does not have to do with editors.

Nikki, I'd say, if two classmates, as it were, have differing opinions, then find out their reasons. Consider also their writing skills in the area you write in. Neither opinion may be particularly useful.

There is no reason to stop with two. You can discuss a number of positions, find reasons and make up your mind. You can look at five revised versions and pick the one you like. OR if you get to be sure of what you want to do, chose an editor /advisor who agrees with you about that para.

There are lots of problems in choosing an expert, but I'm not sure you've run into any yet.

J.

 

[gauchecritic]

I'd say that it's impossible to find an expert in creative writing as there ain't no such aminal. (as opposed to 'amil' which I know very little about 'cos I don't do that)

An expert in creating anything can by definition only lead you to create something created by that expert.

You may wish you could write like e e cummings or E A Poe but if you could write exactly like them, you'd be them.

Technicality aside (I'll accept there are experts in that field) having three in praise and three in damnation gives you the upper hand, you wrote it so that makes four in praise.

The last feedback I received told me that a particular passage in the story in question 'didn't work'. I knew that when I wrote it, but I also knew why it was included whereas they didn't.

That is one of the main differences separating any reader/critic from the writer. Maybe it's a cheap get out but it's still valid as far as I'm concerned. Although knowing why it's there doesn't excuse not explaining it sufficiently in the story (guilty)

This assumes that we are talking about 'feeling' rather than flitting from tense to tense or fpl to fpo or somesuch.

You wrote it Nikki, after all the discussion and debate you are the defacto chairperson and you have the casting vote.

Gauche