Cowboy/Indian story set out in the American Wild West?

[TheCaptain]

- How can I make a story like this work out? What ingredients do I need for a Wild West erotic tale?

- Should the shootout/action sequences, if any, be vital to the storyline, or irrelevent?

- Should there be a nemesis to the main *good* character?

- Would the language of the characters be overtly different than, say, the words spoken by WWII era Americans *I have them scouted out pretty well* ?

I don't even know if I would go with this idea, but I'm thinking a little variety would be good, and I really have wanted to do a period piece on Lit for quite some time now. A few cowboy flicks were on Showtime Greats tonight that I caught, so that's why I'm currently on this track...

Capt

 

[bisexplicit]

Well, what way are you going with the Cowboy/Indian?

Is it supposed to be similar to the westerns that were popular in the 40s/50s? In that case, follow those stereotypical guidelines set up.

If its supposed to be set in the 1840s and historically accurate for that time period (rather than what poeple in the 1940s thought how the 1840s was), than thats gonna be a little more complicated. Although, I think it would be much more interesting.

 

[JarlsAxe]

Wild West

Personaly, I think the setting has great potential, posting one soon myself, though set a bit earlier, Mountain man period.

I'd say try and be acurate ( don't put electric lights in for example) other than that, shy's the limit I'd think, prositution was legal, as was grass, all sorts of things.

 

[emap]

Oh my, one must wonder where the schools are getting their books, prostitution was never legal in the US, it was ignored in many towns for much of the time. Also keep in mind, women weren't allowed to own property, the rowdy madam you see in the movies didn't really exist, she was either married or worked for a man. A woman rarely got a job, why women in the movies are always schoolteachers, proper church going ladies who sat at home, worked the store with their husband or were whores. It was a very rare woman who got a job doing something else, Calamity Jane being the best known.

Toss into that, racism running rampant, along with anti irish, anti jewish and anti any religion not protestant. Men either had a farm, had a store, had a bar, rode herd for some ranch or other, worked as sheriff/deputy, or were the town drunk.

Basically meant that the wild west was about as bad as the worst bad section of town you can think, or hear about, toss in a few worse things, and doing things to a woman is legal, sometimes shy rape, alot of the time rape is legal unless she was married, then she is husbands property and you damaged his property.

 

[TheCaptain]

Well, what way are you going with the Cowboy/Indian?

Is it supposed to be similar to the westerns that were popular in the 40s/50s? In that case, follow those stereotypical guidelines set up.

If its supposed to be set in the 1840s and historically accurate for that time period (rather than what poeple in the 1940s thought how the 1840s was), than thats gonna be a little more complicated. Although, I think it would be much more interesting.

Well yes I would rather go for accuracy whenever possible, if I go ahead with a story such as this... create a few base characters that are interesting and diverse enough to write about either over a number of chapters, or in one gigantic posting.

It doesn't necessarily have to be a Cowboy/Indian story, but rather in that era... just the usual cowboy tale sort of thing, with a bit of a dark, moody undercurrent. Good guys/bad guys sort of thing, but with the good guys sometimes coming out second best...

Basically meant that the wild west was about as bad as the worst bad section of town you can think, or hear about, toss in a few worse things, and doing things to a woman is legal, sometimes shy rape, alot of the time rape is legal unless she was married, then she is husbands property and you damaged his property.

hmmm, so a Deadwood-esque tale for Lit is the way to go, eh? That was what I was thinking myself...

It holds more possibilities, though a few people might be put off by the constant violence, rough sexuality and, here and there, romantic, tender love I was thinking of mixing up in a story such as the one I'm thinking of doing.

Capt

 

[Colleen Thomas]

- How can I make a story like this work out? What ingredients do I need for a Wild West erotic tale?

- Should the shootout/action sequences, if any, be vital to the storyline, or irrelevent?

- Should there be a nemesis to the main *good* character?

- Would the language of the characters be overtly different than, say, the words spoken by WWII era Americans *I have them scouted out pretty well* ?

I don't even know if I would go with this idea, but I'm thinking a little variety would be good, and I really have wanted to do a period piece on Lit for quite some time now. A few cowboy flicks were on Showtime Greats tonight that I caught, so that's why I'm currently on this track...

Capt

Depends a lot on what you want and your style of writing. For pure stroke work, virtually verything is irelevant save the ability you have to describe the sex.

What ingredients do I need for a Wild West erotic tale?

I am working on one, with a schoolmarm as the main character. Themost important part will be to find a female character you can write. The old west was essentially a victorian west and women were scarce. Decide if she is to be a good girl or bad girl, because the time period rigidly enforced a victorian morality. Classic "good" girls would be your rancher's wife/daughter, homesteader's wife/daughter, the widow running a boarding house or shopkeeper of some sort. Classic bad girls would be saloon girls, outlaws, single women of means.

- Should the shootout/action sequences, if any, be vital to the storyline, or irrelevent?

Anytime you write a scene it should be serving a purpose. Either in advancing plot or advancing characterization. Shoot out and action scens are great ways to move the story along, less so for building character, unless you war working on building up a participant's courage etc.

- Should there be a nemesis to the main *good* character?

All stories operate on the idea of conflict. It drives the plot in most cases. The conflict can be internal or societal, but it generally works best when you have a bad guy to play foil to your protag.

- Would the language of the characters be overtly different than, say, the words spoken by WWII era Americans *I have them scouted out pretty well* ?

Depends. If you are taling railroad workers, it would be an irish brogue or cantonese. Your average hard rock miner might speak with a New york accent or a southern drawl or anything in between. I would suggest lookin gup a couple of civil war diary excerpts online to get a feel for the spoken word of the times.

goodluck

 

[cloudy]

- How can I make a story like this work out? What ingredients do I need for a Wild West erotic tale?

- Should the shootout/action sequences, if any, be vital to the storyline, or irrelevent?

- Should there be a nemesis to the main *good* character?

- Would the language of the characters be overtly different than, say, the words spoken by WWII era Americans *I have them scouted out pretty well* ?

I don't even know if I would go with this idea, but I'm thinking a little variety would be good, and I really have wanted to do a period piece on Lit for quite some time now. A few cowboy flicks were on Showtime Greats tonight that I caught, so that's why I'm currently on this track...

Capt

Please, please, please don't use the horrible, overdone Indian stereotypes, I beg you!

There is some good potential for conflict in this type of storyline - hell, it's built in for you, but every one that I've ever seen portrays us as some sub-human lifeform with nothing on the men's minds but getting a white woman into their bedding. Couldn't be further from the truth, and it's insulting, as well.

If you need help with that side of it, I'm just a PM away.

 

[emap]

Deadwood I suppose is a good basis to use, but by all that is holy DO NOT use the language they do, cocksucker was not a word used.

For example, easy and sleazy are two words that were used to describe a whore, or well any woman who would or is rumored to have sex any time and with anyone, sleazy was used by the churchgoers, easy was used by everyone else, basically anyone not owning property or the whorehouse.

As mentioned above, the wild west is occurrign at the same time as the rest of the country was doing a Victorian era slant, so if you read one of those really old books, Oliver Twist pops to mind, that is the language use by the large majority of the population.

Now if your thinking Indian, go with one more like Lou Diamond Philips in Young Guns one and two, spoke wonderful english, wasn't just a drunk or wild man trying to buy everybodies wife or any of that mostly old movie crap they showed them doing. An Indian generally was an intelligent man or woman who saw things differently so was villified and made into something stupid and worse.

 

[TheCaptain]

Deadwood I suppose is a good basis to use, but by all that is holy DO NOT use the language they do, cocksucker was not a word used.

For example, easy and sleazy are two words that were used to describe a whore, or well any woman who would or is rumored to have sex any time and with anyone, sleazy was used by the churchgoers, easy was used by everyone else, basically anyone not owning property or the whorehouse.

As mentioned above, the wild west is occurrign at the same time as the rest of the country was doing a Victorian era slant, so if you read one of those really old books, Oliver Twist pops to mind, that is the language use by the large majority of the population.

Now if your thinking Indian, go with one more like Lou Diamond Philips in Young Guns one and two, spoke wonderful english, wasn't just a drunk or wild man trying to buy everybodies wife or any of that mostly old movie crap they showed them doing. An Indian generally was an intelligent man or woman who saw things differently so was villified and made into something stupid and worse.

Wow

Thanks so much for the thoughts, will have to have a real look at this... I want to do something like this justice, if I go ahead with the idea, but I don't want to get bogged down in the semantics as I am, after all, a foreigner looking at all this from WAAAAAY down the line... all the help I can get with character types, buildup and settings would be greatly appreciated!

Any great western-era books, movies, or websites out there (websites being free, please) that I should look at that anyone can recommend to me? Anyone know of any standard Old West fiction/non fiction available online somewhere that I should read, to get immersed a little better into the era?

Capt

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Wow

Thanks so much for the thoughts, will have to have a real look at this... I want to do something like this justice, if I go ahead with the idea, but I don't want to get bogged down in the semantics as I am, after all, a foreigner looking at all this from WAAAAAY down the line... all the help I can get with character types, buildup and settings would be greatly appreciated!

Any great western-era books, movies, or websites out there (websites being free, please) that I should look at that anyone can recommend to me? Anyone know of any standard Old West fiction/non fiction available online somewhere that I should read, to get immersed a little better into the era?

Capt

Louis Lamour. He actually visited the old west. If he says a character finds a spring, that spring is or was there. Complete imersion in the times. Plus a lot of historic asides that can help you build your own story.

 

[TheCaptain]

Louis Lamour. He actually visited the old west. If he says a character finds a spring, that spring is or was there. Complete imersion in the times. Plus a lot of historic asides that can help you build your own story.

Yes I've heard of this guy... will have to see about gettin some of his books

Thanks all for your help with this so far!

I will try my best to gather up more knowledge on this era, and let you guys know when I'm closer to putting something up on Lit - or struggling at some point. Please, the more ideas, suggestions and web resources for me to use/review, the better!

Capt

 

[emap]

Louis Lamour is a wonderful one to read, you should be able to find paperbacks of his all over Ebay, and Amazon, and any other place that sells books. It's actually kinda hard to not find most of his books, and cheap, most were just paperback and small.

My bad for not thinking of him before. You can also check for movies, there are a couple of movies made based on his books, Sam Elliot was in one.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Louis Lamour is a wonderful one to read, you should be able to find paperbacks of his all over Ebay, and Amazon, and any other place that sells books. It's actually kinda hard to not find most of his books, and cheap, most were just paperback and small.

My bad for not thinking of him before. You can also check for movies, there are a couple of movies made based on his books, Sam Elliot was in one.

The Saketts
The Shadowriders
Conagher

All great movies.

Zane Gray is another western author you should try to read.

 

[TheCaptain]

Great thanks must go out to Snooper for the PM'ed story he sent me

Also, I'm having difficulty trying to get the full list of Louis L'Amour's work, in order... I'm not really sure which book comes where, in the websites that I've breezed through so far.

Can anyone link me to a site where all his work is listed IN ORDER? Or direct me to a few of his best works?

Thanks again, folks

Capt

 

[alrem]

This is a great idea Captain, I'm really exited to read it. I don't know much about the old western era and I'm sure you can feed me a good image of it .

I remember a comic strip that I've read before about Indians that are giving their daughters to Cowboys as a peace offering and prevent them from attacking their villages in the mountains.

Well, I know that it's just a fiction but maybe it would add some options for the story.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Great thanks must go out to Snooper for the PM'ed story he sent me

Also, I'm having difficulty trying to get the full list of Louis L'Amour's work, in order... I'm not really sure which book comes where, in the websites that I've breezed through so far.

Can anyone link me to a site where all his work is listed IN ORDER? Or direct me to a few of his best works?

Thanks again, folks

Capt

There is no order to his works. Each is a freestanding story. Even the sacketts novels, which are listed in order happen generations apart and you need not have read one to enjoy the next, with the possible exception of To the Far Blue Mountains.

Some of my favorites:
The Sacketts Brand
Treasure Mountain
The Day Breakers
Lonely on the MOuntain
Connager
Riley's Luck
The First Fast Draw
Shalako
The Skyliners
Tucker
Nort to the Rails
Milo Talon
Ride the Dark Trail

 

[cloudy]

I remember a comic strip that I've read before about Indians that are giving their daughters to Cowboys as a peace offering and prevent them from attacking their villages in the mountains.

Well, I know that it's just a fiction but maybe it would add some options for the story.

It never happened, though. See? That's the kind of stereotypical stuff that gets on my damn nerves. I'm sorry to be such a bitch, but I live with these stupid images every single fucking day.

 

[TheCaptain]

It never happened, though. See? That's the kind of stereotypical stuff that gets on my damn nerves. I'm sorry to be such a bitch, but I live with these stupid images every single fucking day.

yeah I think going against the grain of modern conceptions, however right/wrong they are, is the way I want to take this thing - I want it a bit different than anything else out there. No matter how long it takes, I want this to be long, drawnout, thoughtful and GOOD. Probably going to be one semi-big or big posting.

oh, and hey, are you like that av pic, realworld...?

wanna play cowboy/indians with me?

Capt

 

[cloudy]

hey, you like that av pic...?

wanna play cowboy/indians with me?

Capt

as long as we can play the way it really happened, instead of the Clint Eastwood version of reality.

 

[TheCaptain]

as long as we can play the way it really happened, instead of the Clint Eastwood version of reality.

lol anyways fine fpr this those ole sharpshooter

Capt

 

[alrem]

It never happened, though. See? That's the kind of stereotypical stuff that gets on my damn nerves. I'm sorry to be such a bitch, but I live with these stupid images every single fucking day.

Gees, I'm sorry if I say something wrong. I don't mean it that way. Infact I don't really know anything about Indians and Cowboys aside from what I'm seeing on the movies and comics.

 

[TheCaptain]

Gees, I'm sorry if I say something wrong. I don't mean it that way. Infact I don't really know anything about Indians and Cowboys aside from what I'm seeing on the movies and comics.

Yes, to a lesser extent I assumed the same thing... but the more I look back into researching the ACTUAL past, the more I realise just how slanted white folk were towards demonizing the native americans , at least, in the earlier days...

It's a sad tale, but the same thing happened here to a lesser extent with our Aboriginal natives... the British colonists came into bitter confict with the local inhabitants of many parts of Australia over prized real estate early on in our history, though a great deal of the land indigenous Aussies coulld live on, early poineers found too difficult, so the confict was not so bloody and widespread.

What I'm looking at doing is MUCH like a Wilbur Smith type tale, though of course set in the American West instead of on the African continent where most of his stories are based. I'm looking for family conflicts building up over generations, blood feuds, violence, misdeeds, betrayals and murders. I'm looking for roughness and authenticity.

And I'm looking for smut, as much of it and as descriptive as I can make it without detracting from the storyline. If I can work in locations, accurate characteristics, and proper descriptions of the actions of certain types of folks in this timeframe, then all the better.

Have gotten halfway down page2 in Word of the story at the moment... working on the defining moment in one of the main character's lives - a traumatic time, when a wrong is done to him that he is determined to see right, no matter what

Capt

 

[Colleen Thomas]

It never happened, though. See? That's the kind of stereotypical stuff that gets on my damn nerves. I'm sorry to be such a bitch, but I live with these stupid images every single fucking day.

IIRC Jerimiah Johnson traded for a wife with the Flathead Tribe. He also took a wife of the Crow tribe after he ended his personal war with them.

IMHO it works better if you stick with realism. White men could get an indian wife, but it was usually a complicated process of either barter or becoming a member of a particular tribe.

If you want to go the barter route, you should do some research as several tribes had various prohibitions on whom could do so and on what "price" had to be offered.

If you are going the joining the tribe route, you need to know what a tribe expected of members and what a man must do to earn it. The Crow, in my above example were a very agressive, warlike people. They valued bravery and combat prowess highly. Johnson killed around 46 crow warriors before the Crow decided the best way to end his private war was to offer him peace and membership in the tribe. Other tribes valued other things. The Comanche and Souix valued a sucessful horse thief. These tribes were nomadic and depended on mobility in their combat, so a man who was adept at robbing their enemies of that mobility while increasing the tribe's mobility was a valuable community asset.

When dealing with native Americans in a story, you have to be knowledgeable about a particular tribe. There was no "unifying" characteristic of "indians". It is better to think of them like you would various celtic tribes. A lowland germanic celt bore little resemblance to a highland scott, though both were celtic. Similarly, a Shoshone and a Nez Perce were very differnt, though both were indians.

 

[cloudy]

Gees, I'm sorry if I say something wrong. I don't mean it that way. Infact I don't really know anything about Indians and Cowboys aside from what I'm seeing on the movies and comics.

Well, I probably owe you an apology, as well, for flying off the handle a little prematurely. I just get so damn frustrated sometimes, that's all. Truce?

Unfortunately, most of the world, and indeed, most of this country, gets their ideas about native americans from movies and television, and that vision of an entire race of people is so skewed from reality.

We're from many different Nations/tribes - we have differing ideas on spirituality, we speak different languages, but somehow in Hollywood's version of "Indians" we all end up looking the same, speaking broken english, being classified as the "noble savage," and all the men want nothing more in their lives than to have sex with a white woman. To be honest, sometimes it's just plain funny to me, but then at other times, I get very frustrated, because it seems that most people, world wide, accept the romanticized, exaggerated, and just plain false version, without even trying to learn the truth, or maybe even get to know us. We're people, just like everyone else, but it seems that many think we don't even exist anymore.

I'm sorry - rant over.

 

[cloudy]

IIRC Jerimiah Johnson traded for a wife with the Flathead Tribe. He also took a wife of the Crow tribe after he ended his personal war with them.

IMHO it works better if you stick with realism. White men could get an indian wife, but it was usually a complicated process of either barter or becoming a member of a particular tribe.

If you want to go the barter route, you should do some research as several tribes had various prohibitions on whom could do so and on what "price" had to be offered.

If you are going the joining the tribe route, you need to know what a tribe expected of members and what a man must do to earn it. The Crow, in my above example were a very agressive, warlike people. They valued bravery and combat prowess highly. Johnson killed around 46 crow warriors before the Crow decided the best way to end his private war was to offer him peace and membership in the tribe. Other tribes valued other things. The Comanche and Souix valued a sucessful horse thief. These tribes were nomadic and depended on mobility in their combat, so a man who was adept at robbing their enemies of that mobility while increasing the tribe's mobility was a valuable community asset.

When dealing with native Americans in a story, you have to be knowledgeable about a particular tribe. There was no "unifying" characteristic of "indians". It is better to think of them like you would various celtic tribes. A lowland germanic celt bore little resemblance to a highland scott, though both were celtic. Similarly, a Shoshone and a Nez Perce were very differnt, though both were indians.

Thank you, Colly.