courtesy for the uncorteous

[Guest]

A rant:

This morning I was on the line. I was standing before the cashier but was actually the second customer. I was in a hurry, I admit. The warrior and little Master were out in the rain, and I had locked the door.

A third lady stood beside me and made as if to pay. She acted as if was not there at all! When the waiter arrived, the lady jumped to be served. I pointed to the first in the line and asked the third lady to wait.

Another minute passes, and a second waiter arrives. She jumps again as if I was invisible or made of air. I tell her more forcefully that I was waiting in the line before her. She backs down once more.

As I got served, she remarked.

"You know, I used to be a teacher once."

I was not sure were she was going with this, so I did not adress her.

"I am telling you that, because you talk like the bad teachers...forceful."

I looked at her incredulous.

"The tone is everything. You could have been less forceful."

Wait a minute. Wasn't she the one cutting in line? I answered, keeping my tone even. "I don't feel the obligation to be courteous when someone is so boldly uncorteous to me."

"Oh so you don't feel obligated."

I shook my head no.

"I would not have minded waiting seven more minutes in the line."

I thought it, but I did not say it, 'Which is why you cut into the line in the first place?'

You know what the worst part is? I left feeling bad. Not because of what I did. I have long ago decided to stand up for myself in these situations.

Will a woman always feel bad when "accused" of being agressive?

Later, I met the warrior outside, and the woman left the coffee shop, then stared at me vacantly for quite a while, as if she wanted to say something else. Then she left...


A background:

Nobody here likes to stand on line. If the line is long enough, this sort of thing will happen. I once was pushed out of the line by a woman in the hospital pharmacy while eight months pregnant. She claimed to not have seen me. I am 5ft7in and at the time, I looked like the Egyptian hypo Goddess Taueret.

I guess I will always feel this way. Either act invisible, or be branded agressive...I wish I could be like some of the men I know.


Maharat

 

[Vermilion]

I know exactly what you mean and I sympathise. Thing is it's a no-win situation - if you complain to them you feel bad for being 'aggressive' or 'selfish', if you don;t say anything then you feel like a complete wally who can;t stand up for themselves.

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[feeeriek]

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I give up. Why is being assertive a problem?

To my way of thinking, cutting the line is aggressive. Confronting aggression is being assertive.

Things happen. If someone stands on my foot I ask them to move. If they refuse to move I push them off my foot.

 

[Vermilion]

I give up. Why is being assertive a problem?

To my way of thinking, cutting the line is aggressive. Confronting aggression is being assertive.

Things happen. If someone stands on my foot I ask them to move. If they refuse to move I push them off my foot.

Therein lies the difference between 'masculine' behaviour and 'feminine' behaviour... What is seen as assertive for a man is often classed as aggressive in a woman. It's much like the difference between being a player and a slut. Technically no difference, but societal perceptions... <shrugs>

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[oggbashan]

Several years ago my wife and I were second in a queue at a checkout in a French supermarket. All the checkouts were full with at least a quarter of the shoppers Brits on day trips to stock up with wine and beer.

A French woman barged past the whole queue, saying (in French) "I'm in a hurry. I can't afford to wait." to stand immediately in front of us. My wife lost her cool and told her that there were many other people in a hurry and that she was being excessively rude.

The woman slunk away and joined the back of a queue several checkouts away. Our queue applauded my wife and the checkout girl said "My instructions are not to serve someone who does that. She tries that several times a week."

My wife's French, unlike the locals, is upper class literary Parisian. She spent a year as an au pair to a retired Sorbonne Professor of French Literature. The professor insisted that my wife learned to speak perfect French. The queue were astonished when they realised that my wife and I were English day-trippers.

I think it was my fractured French with a Strine accent that gave us away.

Og

 

[cantdog]

Therein lies the difference between 'masculine' behaviour and 'feminine' behaviour... What is seen as assertive for a man is often classed as aggressive in a woman. It's much like the difference between being a player and a slut. Technically no difference, but societal perceptions... <shrugs>

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The ex-teacher-- a veteran at manipulating people in order to change their behavior, that is to say-- cynically appropriated this whole plenum of notions, to serve her purposes.

Let's bring it back to her, a minute.


Her argument, viz., you should act like a victim because that way I can victimize you, holds no water, but the way she chose to make that argument still has force. Maharat was acculturated, as this woman well knows, to believe that acting like a victim is ladylike, to approximate the concept.

Put that way, all one can say is, what silliness. I hope maharat can shake this off; I hope we all get to scrap it, sooner rather than later.

 

[Vermilion]

The ex-teacher-- a veteran at manipulating people in order to change their behavior, that is to say-- cynically appropriated this whole plenum of notions, to serve her purposes.

Let's bring it back to her, a minute.


Her argument, viz., you should act like a victim because that way I can victimize you, holds no water, but the way she chose to make that argument still has force. Maharat was acculturated, as this woman well knows, to believe that acting like a victim is ladylike, to approximate the concept.

Put that way, all one can say is, what silliness. I hope maharat can shake this off; I hope we all get to scrap it, sooner rather than later.

excellent point. perhaps this woman also felt some sort of respect was innately due to her because of her position as a teacher, which is why she deliberately tried to make Maharat uncomfortable - punishment for 'disrespecting' her.

Hrmm.... I'm using a lot of quotation marks today
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[cantdog]

excellent point. perhaps this woman also felt some sort of respect was innately due to her because of her position as a teacher, which is why she deliberately tried to make Maharat uncomfortable - punishment for 'disrespecting' her.

Hrmm.... I'm using a lot of quotation marks today
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She has no legitimate authority over chance-met strangers. In fact, I'd be willing to assert that she has no legitimate authority over anyone except perhaps her dog, if she has one.

But then, I don't go in very strongly for authorities.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Ha! I was standing in line at the bank to make a deposit. Some mexican guy comes in with his cell phone suffed in his ear and start nudging me from behind. Like I could hurry the tellers or something. All the time he's yaking away on his cell phone. After a minute or so of being pushed from behind I noticed he was talking to another mexican in the next line!!

So, the teller finished and waves at me. The guy pushs ahead of me. Now, I'm 6 feet tall. It's not like he didn't see me. The teller (who I know well) just looked at the guy. I gently tapped him on the shoulder. He turned and glared at me. I grabbed his cell phone, dropped it on the floor and give it a good stomp. He turned bright red. His friend came running screaming at me. I held my ground.

Meanwhile, the assistant manager (who I also know well) called the police. They arrived just in time to see one of the mexican's slap me. He was immediatly thrown to the floor and handcuffed. The other tried to escape into the parking lot but was caught too.

As it turns out, both of them had robbed a 711 store about a mile away and were trying to ditch the cash in the bank. They would have been smarter to not be assholes or pick on me.

Oh, the first mexican tried to sue me over the smashed cell phone. It didn't work. It turns out it was also stolen.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Do you know, of all the people, Miss Manners has a much colder answer to this sort of situation. She's very simple on the rule for dealing with comments by strangers in public: no one is obligated to. I think that her general solution is ideal in this sort of situation - a silently raised eyebrow, a look of calm surprise at being addressed at all, and then turning back to one's business. If she had persisted in pestering you, you would, after all, have had the perfect response: "Excuse me, I'm waiting in line." Let the implication settle gently in - with people who behave as she does, that task takes all of one's attention.

She wanted to engage you in some silly argument because she felt embarassed and wanted to embarass you instead. There's no need to give her that satisfaction. Declining to have anything to do with her both spares you her sniping and reminds her silently but pointedly of what she is: a rude, bumptious stranger with no claim at all on your time or attention.

The extra added bonus is that a demure but firm refusal to speak to strangers is supremely and unexceptionably lady-like.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I'm bound to ask what the nationality of the people in the bank story had to do with anything.

 

[sr71plt]

I'm bound to ask what the nationality of the people in the bank story had to do with anything.

Also why the destruction of the cell phone was justified by the situation. That's going to calm the situation down real well, isn't it? It's not like the bank employees weren't on top of what was happening.


But on the original posting, a straightforward response to the woman, "If you were a teacher, you know the rationale behind queuing up and taking your turn, then, don't you?" should suffice.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

I'm bound to ask what the nationality of the people in the bank story had to do with anything.

You don't live here, Horse. We have quite a few asians, but the majority are illegal mexicans. Looking back five years, there were almost no hispanics here at all. Now the crime rate has skyrocketed and the mexicans are everywhere. We are pretty sensitive.

 

[BlackShanglan]

You don't live here, Horse. We have quite a few asians, but the majority are illegal mexicans. Looking back five years, there were almost no hispanics here at all. Now the crime rate has skyrocketed and the mexicans are everywhere. We are pretty sensitive.

Actually, I'd be very surprised if you knew where I live. But thank you for being sensitive.

 

[Guest]

Do you know, of all the people, Miss Manners has a much colder answer to this sort of situation. She's very simple on the rule for dealing with comments by strangers in public: no one is obligated to. I think that her general solution is ideal in this sort of situation - a silently raised eyebrow, a look of calm surprise at being addressed at all, and then turning back to one's business. If she had persisted in pestering you, you would, after all, have had the perfect response: "Excuse me, I'm waiting in line." Let the implication settle gently in - with people who behave as she does, that task takes all of one's attention.

She wanted to engage you in some silly argument because she felt embarassed and wanted to embarass you instead. There's no need to give her that satisfaction. Declining to have anything to do with her both spares you her sniping and reminds her silently but pointedly of what she is: a rude, bumptious stranger with no claim at all on your time or attention.

The extra added bonus is that a demure but firm refusal to speak to strangers is supremely and unexceptionably lady-like.

This is marvelous advice.

You retain class yet snub the discourteous fool with superior silence.

 

[Guest]

This is marvelous advice.

You retain class yet snub the discourteous fool with superior silence.

I will try to keep that one in mind but...

Considering how the tempers run high here, if the other side were to think by any chance my silence or refusal to acknowledge them is mockery of any sort, I'd possibly get hit in the store.

It happens every once in a while.

One has to be either completely assertive or play dead...


Maharat

 

[Guest]

I will try to keep that one in mind but...

Considering how the tempers run high here, if the other side were to think by any chance my silence or refusal to acknowledge them is mockery of any sort, I'd possibly get hit in the store.

It happens every once in a while.

One has to be either completely assertive or play dead...


Maharat

I do a much better job when my children are with me. That whole, "trying to set a good example" thing?

But cultural differences change matters, don't they?

It seems to me you handled your situation with a great deal of class and restraint.

 

[Vermilion]

This is true. In England a quiet clearing of the throat would make the point very clearly, always providing the offender was also British, or had lived there long enough to be fully attuned to the cultural norms
Waiting in line, after all, is something we're very good at...

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[sr71plt]

This is true. In England a quiet clearing of the throat would make the point very clearly, always providing the offender was also British, or had lived there long enough to be fully attuned to the cultural norms
Waiting in line, after all, is something we're very good at...

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Whereas queuing up isn't something an Egyptian (or some Hispanics, as well as others) would even fathom. So the Egyptian isn't necessarily an evil person if he/she doesn't do it until becoming readapted to a new culture.

I've lived in several international environments where any American within 100 feet assumes he/she will be escorted to the head of the line too (and to a special line to boot).

 

[OhMissScarlett]

She wanted to engage you in some silly argument because she felt embarassed and wanted to embarass you instead. There's no need to give her that satisfaction. Declining to have anything to do with her both spares you her sniping and reminds her silently but pointedly of what she is: a rude, bumptious stranger with no claim at all on your time or attention.

I think that's probably so true. It's been my experience that people who are clearly in the wrong are always the ones who want to scream the loudest and turn things around to make it look like it's someone else's fault. It's like when someone cuts you off and traffic and then they have the audacity to give you the finger. I just smile and wave, no sense putting a dent in my karma.

 

[Guest]

I think that's probably so true. It's been my experience that people who are clearly in the wrong are always the ones who want to scream the loudest and turn things around to make it look like it's someone else's fault. It's like when someone cuts you off and traffic and then they have the audacity to give you the finger. I just smile and wave, no sense putting a dent in my karma.

I think what happens here is, even though rudeness is widespread, many think they are actually ok, it is "all those other rude people that are the problem."

So, when I choose to call them to order (I don't do it often, for the very Karmic reason you pointed out), they must either prove me wrong, or accept that they are one of the "rude" ones.

Guess which one they choose?

Maharat

 

[OhMissScarlett]

I think what happens here is, even though rudeness is widespread, many think they are actually ok, it is "all those other rude people that are the problem."

So, when I choose to call them to order (I don't do it often, for the very Karmic reason you pointed out), they must either prove me wrong, or accept that they are one of the "rude" ones.

Guess which one they choose?

Maharat

Right, I'm sure they think they couldn't possibly be as rude as the REALLY rude people. It's the classic case of it's you, not me.

Over here, sometimes people have this sense of entitlement, so they don't even think they're rude, just entitled to cut in line because they're so much more important than the rest of the masses.

 

[rgraham666]

Humans.

 

[Guest]

Right, I'm sure they think they couldn't possibly be as rude as the REALLY rude people. It's the classic case of it's you, not me.

Over here, sometimes people have this sense of entitlement, so they don't even think they're rude, just entitled to cut in line because they're so much more important than the rest of the masses.

The entitlement thing, oh yes.

Something I've been noticing lately (and trying to ignore) is the situation of when I've been waiting in line, usually with my children, maybe 5-7 minutes or longer.

Right before I start placing my things on the checkout (invariably) someone gets in line behind me and they always seem to have fewer items in their cart.

The person behind me looks into my cart and at their own cart and then they'll look pointedly at me, as if it is their right to go in front of me, as if because they're looking at me I'll immediately step back and allow them to go first.

But in that situation I don't offer. I choose to ignore this deliberate expectation of preferential treatment.

They are usually miffed.

It's somewhat confusing to my children, as they see me offering people to go in front of us all the time. But we have rights too, I tell them. We waited, they can wait, it's all about taking turns.

Anyway. It takes all kinds.