Count me out on voting

[its Leslie]

I have been reading a lot of threads to do with voting.

I have considered the matter and it's clear voting on Lit is quite pointless.

In seconds I can render your H a piece of dust. I can also turn each of your stories into vapour by just voting 1 to all of them.
You can do the same, as can anyone else.
This might as well be voting in a poor third world country.

If Lit was handing out cash for those H awarded stories it might matter. Then again the voting process would have to undergo a process change where it was only judged by accepted judges on a formal panel too.

But currently the voting process is silly. It tells us nothing zero zip nadda. I have a few stories that have ratings that pleased me. none were H level, but hey I was impressed the stories even attracted attention let alone a more or less acceptable rating.

I rolegame with local lads eh (the paper and pencil hobby that uses funny shaped dice that is, you might know it collectively as Dungeons and Dragons). One guy running some of the games decided to have a rating influence the experience awards. I failed to see the logic though. The guys naturally automatically call every game session a 9 (why not it generates a higher experience award).
But I was there for those games, and some of the sessions sucked.
Either the guys were just not up to a cool session or the guy running the session was just not shining somehow.
But when I tried to vote realistically like with say a 6 to show I thought the game was not the default 9 everyone else gave it, I naturally was percieved as a contrary vote.

That's the problem here on Lit. I have not met a person here on the site that deserves a 5 more than once in a blue moon. So if I read your story and vote it a 4 am I being some sort of wet blanket? Have I ruined your rigged fun somehow.
If a person here can write 5 stories and get 4 of them rated 5, shit get off Lit and start making people pay for them. Why are you not getting them published?
Truth is most stories on Lit are 3's. The occasional 4 is logical. And a 5 is something that you can treasure.

But I don't want to be part of the 5 game any longer. I also don't want to ruin people's finely crafted illusions with more realistic voting. So in addition to my opting out of this ego stroking silliness (and I have something else I would much rather have stroked in the first place hehe), I am henceforth no longer voting on anyone else's stories.

You will have to settle for what we all do best. Put your comments into a sentence and send it to me. And if I like a story I will email you (if that option is open at all) and give you a brief sentence saying what I liked about it.

 

[Guest]

1p

 

[horny_giraffe]

Yep. This hypothetical ranking system is so completely artificial. If I give one story a five and one story a four--does that mean that the story I gave the higher number to is better? Better in what sense? Morally so? Asthetically? Sometimes I merely prefer the subject matter. Sometimes I want to think. Other times I just want to get off. Personally, my own standards are so inconsistent that I expect they seem totally capricious. I can't imagine that others are much different.

Philosophically speaking, I'm not sure on the best approach. I suppose that one could list some very specific criteria and try to gauge how well each story matches that criteria. But like you say, the votes are hardly significant because they can be skewed so easily. I figure that the votes might approach some level similar to a Nielson rating once a story has recieved twenty or thirty thousand votes. But the most votes I've ever gotten is a little over five hundred, which is hardly significant. So what can you do, but shrug?

I like 'constructive' criticism that makes me feel all warm inside, but I'll take an anonymous hate letter any day. It's better than being a ghost...

 

[wildsweetone]

the other side of the coin...?

can anyone give me a good reason for keeping my voting on?

it appears in my own experience, which is why i submitted to literotica in the first place, that the voting system here has way too many variables to make any possible positive recognition, truthful or worthwhile.

i doubt that waiting until i have over 500,000 votes is going to make a heck of a lot of difference to how the votes are sitting at the moment. the only difference would be that my writing had altered. while i appear to be going through a diverse learning curve at the moment, the changes in my writing are minimal and slow.

with probable vote tampering and a system which appears to allow any reader from the person who wishes to jack-off, to the person who wishes to read a piece of literature equivalent to Shakespeare or even Stephen King to vote as they see fit without any specific guidelines to vote against, then i believe the voting on literotica is nul and void.

i wonder how other websites define their voting systems.

i wonder how many people vote my work down because i happen to be forthright with my opinions and i wonder how many people vote low because they simply hate my guts. see, for the life of me, i cannot figure out how the voting can possibly measure the value, the worth, or the mechanics of my writing in an accurate manner.

another point. what would happen if i openly declared on here that i'd been accepted by a well known publisher to write a series of books? would that make people suddenly turn around and view my stories in a different light? do you understand my point?

please feel free to persuade me otherwise, i really would like to discover the fairness of the human mind here, but i am seriously considering turning my voting off also.

 

[Bob Peale]

Please keep in mind that voting is only there because the authors demanded it.

In the early days, it was the only way to know if anyone had read your story - long before the contests and the lists and the awards and everything else.

As the site evolved, the voting became less important except for contests. And since the page view count was instituted, people had a better source for their ego stroking.

Unfortunately, most readers don't take the time to send words of encouragement, especially to new writers. For so many people, posting a story represents a huge emotional risk.

I think the votes are comical - to be honest, i leave it on but I can't tell you any of the numbers. It doesn't matter.

However, I also find that a lot of writers don't even give as good as they get. They crave, no demand, feedback, yet when they get it, seldom give the originator even the courtesy of a response.

 

[the_bragis]

Yes I agree the voting is not an accurate measure of how good a story is. Recently I read a simply brilliant story in the bdsm section, it was well written (no errors or typos, and good grammar), easy to read (no flowery language or dribble), and sizzlingly hot!!! Oh yes!!! Yet this story rated only 4.46. Odd too, that it had over 700 votes.

If I like a story I always send a feedback note to the author, if I don't like it... I don't bother. I usually get a note back, but it's surprising how often I don't. It's probably quite silly but I do appreciate feedback on my feedback...I guess everyone is different.

Alex (fem)

 

[Guest]

Seven hundred votes?!!!
Please tell me the title of the story. I've got to read that one.

P.S. I hear some naughty person/people is/are messing with BDSM votings. The highest vote rarely go over 4.6. So, I wouldn't worry about the votes, if I were/was you.

 

[DVS]

You know why voting doesn't mean anything.

It's because nobody seems to care enough to make the system worth anything. It has been called an ego booster at best by people on lit who's opinions seem to carry weight.

And, it's because there is at least one someone out there killing story ratings because they think it is fun. Talk about an ego! It is possible to change the voting system to stop this from happening, but there doesn't seem to be enough interest at the upper level of Lit to OK it.

And, it's because feedback is suppose to be so much more informative than voting. Where did that come from? If you don't get feedback, how can it be more informative? And, it can be just as fake as the voting. A lot of it is. I know people who were sent a FUCK YOU, YOU CAN'T WRITE feedback. Isn't that the same as a 1 vote?
I have myself received several "wow, your story is hot. I got wet reading it". Isn't that a 4, or maybe a 5 vote?

I could send any of you a feedback that would make you think I read your story and liked it and I could tell you why. I could also send you feedback, tell you I hated your story, and tell you why. We are writers. We write fiction. Why do you think your feedback could be anything else? Voting just takes less time and effort.

Sure, people can send you valid feedback. I love feedback. I think it shows more about your ego than the voting system does, though.

And if there is a valid address on feedback, I always return the messages and thank them for the ego boost. But, of the feedback I get, I haven't gotten much information. I got about 8 "man, your story is hot. I got wet while reading it" and only 2 or 3 that had anything I could actually consider as useful.

I won't mention names, but the 2 or 3 that were actually useful were from authors. They told me some things that I could use, or at least affirm what I already knew.

Of the "your story is hot..." feedback, some were actually valid emails. I sent returns thanking them and asked what they liked about the story. I never heard anything. So, was that valid feedback?

Although I sincerely appreciate the few valid feedbacks I have received, I really don't get that much. I actually would appreciate any and all constructive feedback, be it good or bad.

So, this voting thing, that so many say doesn't mean anything, and who say I must have a large ego because I bring up the H problem, and because I complain about this mainly happening in the BDSM category, is all that I have.

If there was no voting, I wouldn't have much info at all. If I have no info, why even post a story here? I might as well go somewhere else and post my stories. But that is a cop out.

I say make the voting work. Maybe make it so you have to vote AND send feedback. Make it so you can't vote more than once, even if you are the vendetta bandit. Make it so someone who hasn't been at Lit for very long has a voice to offer possible constructive criticism, without someone who has been here longer backing up the business as usual mindset. Change is sometimes good. Change is sometimes necessary. Change is sometimes easy. But, if it is always shot down by the biz as norm crowd, things can also stagnate.

As for the voting being turned off, why? It doesn't change anything either way, does it? You don't lose anything by leaving it on, and you don't lose anything by turning it off. And, you do give someone their fun to play hit the H every once in a while. What would this person do, if all of the voting was turned off? Maybe start sending everyone hate mail? Or worse?

I don't have all the answers but I for one will leave the voting turned on. Until I start getting enough feedback from readers, I have nothing else. And sorry, but I might bitch about it every once in a while.

 

[Pure]

votes

Many good points!
Perhaps good reason to ignore the votes; there are dynamite stories in the 4 to 4.5 range, especially in BDSM where the Dark Enforcer (DE) rules!

[Chilled Vodka, read "Famous Blue Raincoat" by Nessus; it's got hundreds of votes and has not been fatally hurt by the DE perhaps for that reason.]

Yes, It's Leslie, it's a bit like the third world. The unregistered can vote often, but the members once each per story: BUT you can take out 20 memberships if you like!

As someone said, solutions aren't that hard. They could be done and the "powers" would do them if enough people pushed.

One easy help would be that only writers vote, or that a writer's vote is kept in a separate category. Until one has 3 stories (of more than one Lit. page each) no vote. Or have 'members' vote, where each membership requires a major credit card (but not necessarily more than a token fee.)

I disagree with It's Leslie about a 5 being deserved once in a blue moon. That's like saying a college physics teacher should give A's only to an obviously budding Einstein, once in ten years, and the English teacher should give you an "A" only if you're James Joyce. A "5" would serve its purpose if the top 5-10 % of stories got them. Its purpose is to guide readers. The "5" HERE does not mean publishable or 'classic' or course. But there are but a handful of those here. (Ever see a Lit story in an anthology? (edited by an outside/ unconnected person)).

Go to 'Nerve' or 'cleansheets' for publishable quality, or any of the author's websites, whose works are published.

The extended feedback is good, and all it takes is for people to do more of that. Some 'circles' have been attempted, for those inclined. No muss, no fuss, no begging Laurel; also no glory, no top lists, necessarily. Then, as was said, when you're good enough, start selling your stuff to publishers (real or "E").

 

[NoJo]

Vox Pop

I'm only been here a month, so what I have to say is perhaps a little naive compared with someone like Bob Peale,
But anyway:

For me voting is Vox Pop.

It's incredible market research for what goes down well with people who use this site -- which seems to be a helluva lot of people!

I really want to learn what it takes to get a 4.9 after 100 votes. It's a challenge for me!


OK, Let's try dumbing down: Nope, that didn't work.

How about lots and lots of very graphic desciption of sexual acts? Nope, didn't work either.

I know, totally outrageously perverted? uh-uh!

Well maybe, a bit of sex, some character, some mild S/M, with a touch of humor? Not Quite...

I know, let's try originality. Oops, TOO original...lost the readers there...

etc.

I think people who consistently get (genuine) high votes have a special talent, worth studying and learning from.



Joe (4.3)

 

[TrinaT]

Maybe voting should be explained to the voters for overall content, character, settings, etc. The 1-5 rating system could be managed in this way, similar to online surveys from manufacturers. It could based in this manner: on the overall with feedback to the authors.

I have often read stories from categories from areas I normally would not read just to get an idea of reading audience preference. I still vote on the stories and base my vote on the overall not just subject with feedback to the author. I don't vote "1" just because its not a subject I'm into.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Trina T.

 

[Guest]

The only real reality with voting in the end, is it is subjected to the influences of warm fuzzies whereby people vote "5"s to be nice (I don't hate warm fuzzies, but they are not very accurate or informative), that and it is influenced by those among us that have nothing useful to say, and will vote a 1 just to be spiteful (knowing that a single vote of 1 can ruin your chances of that inaccurate H rating).

True, feedback is not always going to be positive.

But if I get one positive comment like "hey I enjoyed your story, I liked....." and 100 instances of "fuck you suck", well I am happy to get the one positive comment.

In that way I can actually see the real response my story got more clearly. A single positive comment is like getting a 3. While getting several positive comments is like a 4. Of course the praise will have to be extremely positive for me to think a 5 might just have been achieved.
No amount of "jerk" replies though, will ever have any meaning to me. I have zero interest in the thoughts of small minded fools, not that I am likely to base any important decisions on stupid replies (like the example one I mentioned above).

But in the end I was able to see exactly each and every comment.

A 3.whatever up to a 4.whatever will never tell me anything of use.

I wouldn't waste time though waiting to see the "voting" system cleaned up.
Lets face it folks, Lit is very generous letting us be here, but if I want tangible voting, I would much rather count "accepted notices" from paying publications.

 

[Sandia]

Everyone is different.

Would Joyce get great scores on Literotica? How about Faulkner, or Virginia Wolf?

They'd get ones. Zeroes, if it were possible.

I'd encourage folks not to take the scores too seriously. They only reflect how much you're pleasing a particular audience (or how often your friends are voting.)

Even in real world publishing, the greatest writers are not necessarily the biggest sellers. That goes triple here.


Sandia.

 

[DVS]

Re: Everyone is different.

I'd encourage folks not to take the scores too seriously. They only reflect how much you're pleasing a particular audience (or how often your friends are voting.)Sandia.

If you don't get feedback, voting is the only means of finding out how your readers are liking or not liking your story. If I got feedback, maybe I wouldn't care so much. But, it does give you your particular audience, if the voting is honest. And, your friends shouldn't be able to vote more than once, if the system is working. If they are voting more than once, the system isn't working and it only damages your story, and nobody else's. This isn't a race to the H. All I want to know is how people like my story. If some else's story gains an H, more power to it. I know my friends only vote once, because I asked them to. I also asked them to vote honestly. I didn't ask for all 5s, as some may.

Anyway, that is just a short rebut. Sorry, if it seems personal, it isn't.

 

[Sandia]

No offense taken

Anyway, that is just a short rebut. Sorry, if it seems personal, it isn't.

Of course I wasn't accusing anybody in particular of anything.

I do agree with you that one thoughtful response from somebody you can respect means more than a hundred votes, no matter what they are.

Sandia.

 

[Sandia]

I thought about this some more...

Mostly what folks are looking for when they come here is an erotic thrill. (I should know, I'm one of them.)

Providing folks an erotic thrill is not necessarily the same thing as writing a good story. Things like character development, plot, and style often interfere.

It's dangerous, I think, to rely the votes (and sometimes, I think, even feedback) if you're trying to become a good writer.

Thanks!
Sandia.

 

[DVS]

Re: I thought about this some more...

Mostly what folks are looking for when they come here is an erotic thrill. (I should know, I'm one of them.)

Providing folks an erotic thrill is not necessarily the same thing as writing a good story. Things like character development, plot, and style often interfere.

It's dangerous, I think, to rely the votes (and sometimes, I think, even feedback) if you're trying to become a good writer.

Thanks!
Sandia.

Oh, I agree, and I would think most who consider themselves good writers would, too.

There are some readers who vote against a story because the author didn't take a torment far enough (in the reader's opinion), or maybe didn't tie the victim up in the position the reader preferred. Even feedback is sometimes the same way, but they may not say so. FUCK YOU, YOU CAN'T WRITE could just be their way of telling you they didn't like the position you had the woman in during her spanking. You know?

This is something we can't control, because not every reader is looking for a good plot, juicy characters, or even a plot at all. Anyone old enough to remember the old Readers from long ago?

With a little thought and creativity...
See Dick fuck. See Dick fuck Jane. See Dick fuck Jane, hard. See Jane cum. Fuck Dick, fuck.

Want some beastiality? Insert Dick's dog, Spot into the story, in place of his master. Simple.

OK, maybe I took that a little far, but if it gets some readers off, that is all they care about. I know some actually search the story for certain words or phrases, looking for the "action". They don't even care about the story setup, plot, or any kind of character development. This type of story is nothing more than a "whacker" or a "spunk tale".

But, we like to think most readers care about the plot and who the characters are. We like to think there is a group out there who likes to know how the characters got together for the ultimate sex scene we build up to.

Let's hope the bulk of the readers are the type in the above paragraph, and not just looking for a "whacker".

And, if I am wrong, don't tell me.

 

[wildsweetone]

good grief

okay and these comments are meant to persuade me to keep my voting on?

hmmm

 

[Quiet_Cool]

Re: the other side of the coin...?

can anyone give me a good reason for keeping my voting on?

it appears in my own experience, which is why i submitted to literotica in the first place, that the voting system here has way too many variables to make any possible positive recognition, truthful or worthwhile.

i doubt that waiting until i have over 500,000 votes is going to make a heck of a lot of difference to how the votes are sitting at the moment. the only difference would be that my writing had altered. while i appear to be going through a diverse learning curve at the moment, the changes in my writing are minimal and slow.

with probable vote tampering and a system which appears to allow any reader from the person who wishes to jack-off, to the person who wishes to read a piece of literature equivalent to Shakespeare or even Stephen King to vote as they see fit without any specific guidelines to vote against, then i believe the voting on literotica is nul and void.

i wonder how other websites define their voting systems.

i wonder how many people vote my work down because i happen to be forthright with my opinions and i wonder how many people vote low because they simply hate my guts. see, for the life of me, i cannot figure out how the voting can possibly measure the value, the worth, or the mechanics of my writing in an accurate manner.

another point. what would happen if i openly declared on here that i'd been accepted by a well known publisher to write a series of books? would that make people suddenly turn around and view my stories in a different light? do you understand my point?

please feel free to persuade me otherwise, i really would like to discover the fairness of the human mind here, but i am seriously considering turning my voting off also.

Quite frankly, you're overthinking this...basically, voting is a more public (though anonymous) way of giving your opinion on the story. Not enough people vote...period! Is it important? Not really, but I'll admit, I wouldn't want any of my stories below someone else's in rating (and therefore not getting as much exposure) because someone liked it and didn't vote.
The way to look at it is like this. Even if the system isn't fair, remaining on the outskirts isn't a good plan either. Frankly, life isn't any more fair than the voting system, people hold you back or push you ahead, and treat you poorly or well based on unfair methods and often just basic negative and positive motives that are almost never anywhere near fair. You can't sit out on life; you shouldn't sit the sidelines here. Afterall, in a manner of speaking, this place is a part of your life if you're submitting and posting regularly, visiting often, even if a small part of it.
We take these risks just by breathing, and by shutting down the voting option for your stories...all you really do is refuse us the right to share our opinions of your stories in return.

 

[wildsweetone]

hello quiet_cool

there is no point voting nor relying on votes if the variables are too general. the votes here on literotica basically show if the story was 'readable' or not. that's it. nothing else.

i am open to all and any feedback on any of my stories and always have been.

the feedback from any particular corner is way more useful to me than the votes because the votes are meaningless. prove that the votes are a useful indicative feature of my writing and i'll keep them turned on.


are you saying the voting system here on Literotica.com is worthwhile or not quiet_cool?

 

[Sandia]

Re: hello quiet_cool

good grief
okay and these comments are meant to persuade me to keep my voting on?

hmmm

[/B]

The only thing I'd say is that I don't think it matters whether you keep it on or not. The important thing is not to worry about it. Unless of course your goal is simply to be as popular as possible.

If you're looking for more feedback, you might try ASSM. I've gotten some very intelligent and thoughtful mail from posting there. I've even made a couple of friends.

Or, find someone who's opinion you think you can respect, and just ask. Remember, you're not being paid for this. You're doing it for yourself.

Sandia.

 

[Couture]

Wildsweetone, the voting is only useful in that whenever you get the little 'H' beside your story, there are a lot more reads.

Get an 'H'? That little 'H' can give you around 30% more reads. If you get lucky enough for your story to be at the top 3 or so of the page, that's about 30% too.

Get on the toplist? Whoopee! My story French Lessons is currently the #2 story on the Fetish list. This means I'll get reads for as long as it stays on the list. Pretty sweet, but enjoy it while you can, because it usually doesn't last.

An 'E'? I don't know . . . never got one so I can't say. I think I need to write about cats or a hetero romance/sad story with very heavy dialect.

Sorry, but the pussies I write about don't purr when you pet 'em.

 

[wildsweetone]

being who i am, i aren't worried about the voting at all. i know how my stories are received, and have no need to rely on the voting here. i allowed voting simply for personal experience, nothing more.

i was merely trying to discuss the merit for the voting system to be here.

Bob Peale said way back on the thread, the voting is here only because the authors demanded it.

maybe it's time to get a few suggestions together about how the voting system can become more realistic and useful to us as authors...

 

[Quasimodem]

Before here, I posted my stories on ASSM.

The bad features there were, no idea how many people actually looked, down loaded, began, or finished reading your story. Authors had no idea about what the audience thought of them - save through feedback - or discussion on ASSD. The valuable of the feedback depended upon it quality. The discussion on ASSD tended to be cliquish, and exclusionary.

Like Literoctica, it archived submissions. The drawback is that - in the case of my own stories - whenever I check, one or more appears in a truncated form. Since the truncated stories vary, it appears to be the "script reader program" malfunctioning, not loss of data in the file. A backup, in good condition, exists on Deja Vue, for those who know to look there.

The only feature on ASSM that is not represented here - and IMO in a better form, are the reviewers.

On ASSM there were up to a dozen "Reviewers" who read all the new stories, graded and put out a review of the top couple. This of course was subjective. People could - and did - violently disagree with the reviewer's judgement. A few covered All Categories. Some, only covered the categories they enjoyed, and felt comfortable critiquing. But after one or two reviews, a reader could soon tell how that reviewer's taste jibed with their own.

Even a bad reviewer was of some value.

In one case, a reviewer's taste was so far from my own that s/he was my best guide. Anything panned, I read. Anything praised, I ducked. I trusted his/her bad judgement implicitly.

 

[Sandia]

Quasi,
I was curious about your reference to reviewers...
(I'm trying to remember what it was called, and can't quite come up with it -- oh, wait, was it "Celestial Reviews"?) I looked for it, and it appeared to have gone out of business... this was about six months ago. Am I wrong?

One other thing, ASSM also offers free webspace for websites to authors who are interested. They're all collected together, and they're linked at the bottom of every story.

--Sandia.