confounding feedback

[sweetnpetite]

ok, so I understand that peotry dosn't get much feedback, but this last peom I posted has gotten me one- and it's so negative- I just don't get it. My poem was about mothers and sons certainly not meant to be sexist or offensive. Here is the response that I recieved:


You have an interesting take on the interaction of parent to offspring.

"When you become a father
to a son,
You become a mentor
and then a competitor;" -- This sounds like the natural
progression of things and is completely neutral in feeling.

"When you become a father
to a daughter,
You become a servant
to your little princess;" -- This seems to harbour resentment to
some daughter somewhere?

"When you become a mother
to a daughter,
You hope for a friend,
but often find a rival." -- Again, another negative statement
against the female relationships within the family unit, I think because
you drag feeling into it and make it personal.

"But

When you become the mother
of a son
You become a Queen." -- Is this what we're to strive for? Is the woman
angry at the son for surplanting her importance thus elevating her via
proxy to a false royalty or is she elated at the birth of her BOY!?
Either way, it's still a backhanded demeaning of feminine status.

I really hope this poem was designed to point out the chauvinistic view
many people in the world still hold. If you sincerely believe what
you've created, then I pity your children and I'd like to slap your
parents.

What do you all make of this?

I didn't get this venemous of response for my non-consent submission. I'm pretty sure this is the least offensive thing I've posted, but I suppose I could be wrong.

 

[sweetnpetite]

I wonder why she thinks that 'competitor' is nuetral and 'rival' is negative. That really makes me scratch my head.

 

[MaxSebastian]

Looks like you stumbled upon what we in the trade call:

Nutter.

 

[Icingsugar]

What do you all make of this?

Short and simple. You have encountered an asshat.

It's a poen, of your own private reflections, right? And is thus not meant to be analysed line by line. Any such attempt will fail. And it did.

Even though your family conclusions does not ring true in my life, I'm sure it does in many other's lives. Iether way, it's a good piece of poerty and an interresting point.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Oh thank you icing. I hope you voted. (I think that poem has one vote and its been up about a week.)

that feedback just really threw me for a loop.

 

[ffreak]

My guess is you ran into one of the insecure types out there who think every phrase uttered must be measured against the mistakes and failures in their own lives.

I for one happen to think your Mothers and Sons is a simply classic poem with great feelings for what the relationships should be in a normal life. And you're right, when a woman is the mother of a son who loves her, she is a Queen - a perfectly respectable goal for any mother to try to reach.

-FF' (everyone go read and vote for Mothers and Sons)

 

[Svenskaflicka]

MaxSebastian, I believe the correct term is Nuttus Caseus.

Svenskaflicka
Latin Student

 

[gauchecritic]

I've often heard the Father v. son and Mother v. daughter thing even to the extent of fisticuffs between either pairing.

Lots of families have these rivalries and loyalties and some families don't make issues of them (though they are still there).

The animal kingdom (of which we are a part) bears this idea out. The daughters becoming part of the harem (ooh incest and no 18 pawed or 3 headed lions in sight) or the sons taking over as head of household (So that's where Oedipus got the idea).

Although on the other hand you don't see many Lions holding down succesful careers or holidaying in Aruba. (with the exception of the Hampstead Lions who are nuveau riche and don't understand that they should be roaming savhanas(sp) rather than taking tea at the Savoy)

Perfectly reasonable delineation of familial traits Sweet. Nice Poem.

Gauche

 

[Chicklet]

A lot of my poems get poetry in response....sometimes no message, just the readers own poem. I think sometimes it's just the reader sharing with me.

Chicklet

 

[Madame Manga]

I've had similar crits of a story or two of mine; these people make a career of reading massive general injustices into small, specific, personal observations and circumstances. You can always depend on them to use academic vocabulary like a baseball bat, particularly against other women.

MM

 

[AmericanWench]

What do you all make of this?


I think you have encountered someone who:

1) Suffers from Cranial-Rectal inversion, and had their own take on your poem, or

2) Doesn't eat enough roughage



Put the feedback into the revolving file, and forget about it.

 

[Icingsugar]

The animal kingdom (of which we are a part) bears this idea out. The daughters becoming part of the harem (ooh incest and no 18 pawed or 3 headed lions in sight)

And you know what, they're no banjo pickers either. Atlhough that might had been kinda cool.

 

[Just_John1]

Loved the poem

Can't understand the response. Sounds like a mom with nothing other than daughters that wants that queen thing. Perhaps she was voted in her family as the queen bitch and isn't happy about it. The poem made me think which I hope was the intention.

Either way, it's still a backhanded demeaning of feminine status.

How the fuck! can this be a demeaning of feminine status? (pardon the French). I see this as the celebration of the love between a mom and her kid. How is that demeaning?

This seems to harbour resentment to some daughter somewhere?

If a father doesn't consider his daughter his little princess and doesn't dote on her then something's wrong you anal retentive neanderthal, knuckle dragging twit... Sorry, I'm building up to a rant...

ok ok mom I'll take my medicine...

Back into the shadows with me...

JJ1

 

[OldnotDead]

ok, so I understand that peotry dosn't get much feedback, but this last peom I posted has gotten me one- and it's so negative- I just don't get it. My poem was about mothers and sons certainly not meant to be sexist or offensive . . .

What do you all make of this?
. . .

Silliness. To take a single song, poem, sonnet as a manifesto of an individual's fundamental view of life is an absurd idea. To try and analyze the 'statements' as if the author is trying to make a logical construct is almost as silly.

To then jump even further into the fray and infer that the observations about relationships expressed in the poem are beliefs held to by the author as the correct way to relate represents a superciliousness of the highest order.

If you printed it. Shred it. If you didn't, delete it.

OnD

http://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=135309

 

[sweetnpetite]

YOu hyperlinked my poem. That was so cool of you!

And thanks for the praise and encouragement. I've now got a total of 8 votes (which is a personal record for peotry) I'm glad that my observations are appreciated.

I have a daughter and two sons. My daughter is amazing- tallented, smart, hard working, responsible, insightful, ect. And I think she adores me most of the time as well. I don't love her any less than I love my sons- it's just a different dynamic. My mother always wanted a little boy- but only had girls. And I was just thinking one day, that it really was unfortunate for her that she never really had that special kind of adoration that comes from a little boy, to whom you are the world.

I think it comes from the opposite gender thing (as the 'daddy's princess' does) coupled with the fact that mother is the source of life and most daily care, and a representation of home, security (physical and emotional), and unconditional love. NOw obviously this is a simplification and doesn't represent everyone- but even men with 'bad' mom's or mom's that just don't fit the stereotype associate there mothers with home and security. (Even if it's just the security of the 'known devil over the unknown devil')

The other relationships in the peom are oversimplified, because they are only there to contrast and highlight the special relationship between mother and son (as i see it). And of course it's peotry so it's meant to evoke an emotional response as a oposed to an intellectual response (like all of my rambling above). So I guess I can say my poem "worked" becuase it got one hell of an emotional response from that lady!.
"If you sincerely believe what you've created, then I pity your children and I'd like to slap your parents." -what could be more emotional than that?

I for one happen to think your Mothers and Sons is a simply classic poem with great feelings for what the relationships should be in a normal life. And you're right, when a woman is the mother of a son who loves her, she is a Queen - a perfectly respectable goal for any mother to try to reach.

-FF' (everyone go read and vote for Mothers and Sons)

 

[Jenny _S]

Personally sweet,
I believe a "measured" and "reasonable" responce to this person is in order. At first I thought of something quite violent: NUKE THE FUCKER. But, of course, that would be not in keeping with the sensibilities and honest competition fostered on Lit.

So, as an alternative, I suggest you make up 100,000 hand bills with a computer "enhanced" photo of Bin Ladin butt fucking Allah and mail it to every Arab-sounding name in the Unitied States, with this person's return address.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Wow! Remind me never to piss you off!!!

Personally sweet,
I believe a "measured" and "reasonable" responce to this person is in order. At first I thought of something quite violent: NUKE THE FUCKER. But, of course, that would be not in keeping with the sensibilities and honest competition fostered on Lit.

So, as an alternative, I suggest you make up 100,000 hand bills with a computer "enhanced" photo of Bin Ladin butt fucking Allah and mail it to every Arab-sounding name in the Unitied States, with this person's return address.

 

[Dirty Slut]

Dear Sweetanpetite...

I think you shouldn't have given your mother a link to this site. LOL

DS

 

[champagne1982]

Obviously you didn't think the rest of our correspondence was worthy of sharing with others. It was really not meant to be a vituprative attack. READ CAREFULLY!

"I really hope this poem was designed to point out the chauvinistic view many people in the world still hold."

Every one of the opinions in that feedback was couched with the words "if, seems, and maybe". I find it amazing that you all take this as an attack on the quality of the work and discount the fact that it's opinion about the theme of the poem and not the poetess in general. The only time anything remotely resembling an attack was the last line and you know what? I stand by it. If the theme was as I personally interpreted it and expressed then even SnP would back me up.

Instead of the discussion I was hoping this feedback would stimulate all I see are attacks. NICE.

To sweetnpetite:
I'm the first to admit that I didn't understand your poem and I thank you for the clarification you sent me. Maybe I should apologize for having a different view of your words than every one else. I also sent you an email response that perhaps you didn't receive.

You wrote me:

I am sorry that you found so much to be offended by in my poem.
Mainly it was an observation of what I see generally *happens* not what I believe should happen or anything like that, but just what does happen. I am a feminist to the point where I'm almost militant, and I really don't see how observing the truth is sexist. I myself was never that much of a 'daddy's girl' but my daughter definatly is. I do think that people relate diferntly to there offspring of different genders, wheather it's right or wrong. Some of it's society, some of it's hormones, phycology, ect.. a combination of factors. Each combination creates a different dinamic, which is all I was trying to say.

There was more to this email about your family and I thank you for sharing it. You are very fortunate.

I responded:
Yes m'lady, Definitely misunderstood. I wasn't offended, I was asking for clarification of your view. You have to admit it's a chauvinistic society you seem to be observing. Don't forget militant feminism is merely the flip side of reverse chauvinism as practiced by women raised in the post war boom of the 50's

To everyone else:
I think that's why feedback carrying negative connotations is often anonymous, because when you see shit like this in a public forum about something you thought was a one on one interaction, you're left with a nasty taste in your mouth.

I know I should choose to stay anonymous in all of this but man...
I think you all deserve the chance to attack me personally...

Just another shit-for-brains analyst who was striving for conversation on a different level than bee ems and garderobes.

 

[Jenny _S]

Just another shit-for-brains analyst who was striving for conversation on a different level than bee ems and garderobes.

Ummm... What's wrong with Bee Ems?? I believe they are familiar to everyone on Lit and a few other places.

 

[champagne1982]

Ummm... What's wrong with Bee Ems?? I believe they are familiar to everyone on Lit and a few other places.

Yes daily. Y'see, I read the AH forum on the Literotica bulletin boards and there's enough roughage on here that I never have problems with mental constipation or thought diarrhea. There's always one smooth cranial defecation daily to be had. With liberal sprinklings of Gas-X, one can almost be certain that the moral fibre ingested from the pronouncements of the denizens of these boards won't result in a too offensive brain fart, or at the very least those around one would hope.

 

[raphy]

Ah, scandal.

Champagne, negative feedback is a touchy thing. Maybe we're not socially programmed to take it well. Maybe your feedback caught SnP on a bad day. Maybe all sorts of unknown factors.

But I do know one thing, at least - If I'd written SnP's poem and recieved your criticism, I think I'd be more than mildly miffed by the tone of it, as well.

It's arrogant, condescending, superior and the tone brooks no argument:

Again, another negative statement
against the female relationships within the family unit,

Where's the 'if' in that statement. You've already made your mind up about it.

Either way, it's still a backhanded demeaning of feminine status.

Again, a flat statement, allowing for zero discussion, other than a schoolyard "No, you're wrong."

That wasn't constructive criticism, that was you saying "You're sexist, misogynistic and I hate you"...

Or at least that's how it came across to me as, but what do I know? I'm just a man - I couldn't spot misogyny if it came up and bit me on the ass.

Raph, in the middle on this one.

p.s. and probably the wrong gender to be arguing the point anyway ... Har

 

[champagne1982]

Ahhhh! A reviewer's nightmare come true, to be analyzed and picked apart line by line in much the same manner as was derided by the talented IcingSugar in his post

And is thus not meant to be analysed line by line. Any such attempt will fail. And it did.

.

I cannot defend my feelings for that's all they are. I also wrote this to be viewed and discussed by only one other person. If I had written a personal review on one of your works and e-mailed it to you, I wouldn't expect to see it in the Poetry feedback forum nevermind that it's in the AH. Thus the adage from wise Solomon holds true yet again. "Judge not, lest ye be judged."

 

[raphy]

If I had written a personal review on one of your works and e-mailed it to you, I wouldn't expect to see it in the Poetry feedback forum nevermind that it's in the AH.

.... And yes, point taken *bows* - As is your earlier one about why so much negative feedback is anonymous.

For better or worse, however, it is now here.

Raph, not chastened, but still shutting up.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I wasn't going to post to this thread because I had no intention of getting involved in what appeared to be a nice spontaneously organized anonymous bashing group exercise, but if champagne came forth publicly (which was very brave), I need to do it.

The truth is I saw very little wrong with that feedback. "Venemous response"? I'm sorry, but the only thing I see is one interpretation of the poem, and quite frankly, it wasn't an unreasonable interpretation at all. Not mine, but not unreasonable.

Contrary to popular belief, good poetry isn't good because it comes from the heart or because it rings truth. Your poem is vague and judgmental, two major poetry no-nos. It's more a personal reflexion than a poem, like Ice mentioned, although that's not what he meant. Personal reflexions belong in a diary locked in a drawer. But it is posted as a poem, and so, it must be treated as a poem. And as a poem, every word will be analysed, every verse dissected, and there's nothing you can do about it.

There are many ways of interpretating any given poem, but the author should be aware of as many of them as possible. Every single word should be the exact word necessary to convey whatever message the author wants to. If the message doesn't come across, it's because you're doing something wrong.

The way it is written now, most readers will look at this poem once, dismiss it, and move on. Champagne was considerate enough to email you her justified interpretation, probably the only independent, thought out feedback you got to it, and this is your response? If you're going to post poetry and take it the least bit seriously, you better grow a much thicker skin.