Conflict of Interest

[estragon]

Has there been a general discussion on the topic of editors voting in a competition when an author whose work they've edited (in whatever way, mechanical, technical, plot, character, or continuity)?

It's been my rule not to vote if more than one author for whom I work has an entry in a contest. I also won't vote when a story I've edited appears on Lit even when no contest is on.

Does anyone have any thoughts?

 

[Darkniciad]

If you're only voting once, how much impact do you really think you're having?

Assuming your vote is a five, the impact is even less, as a single five has the least impact on most scores of any vote.

In a contest where multiple stories you have edited are competing, I can certainly see potential for conflict of interest, but only if you don't believe they all deserve the same score. If you score them equally, then what does it matter if you vote? You're not favoring one over the other, and as I said before, if you believe they all deserve 5s, your single vote has minimal impact in the larger scheme of things.

I think this is less of an ethical question because of the minimal potential for impact, and more a personal one. If you don't feel right voting, then don't do it. If, on the other hand, your decision is influenced by some greater question of right and wrong, I wouldn't worry about that, and I would support the authors you've edited with your vote.

If you do choose to vote, I would linger on each page of the story for a minute or so before finally going to the voting form, even though you've read it more intensely than anyone but the author has. Reason being that I have good reason to believe that votes cast within a certain minimum amount of time after opening the story are automatically swept, regardless of value.

 

[_Lynn_]

I agree with Dark, this is a personal choice. I'm not sure I understand what difference it makes whether there's a contest going on or not though. Vote or don't vote. Either way is your choice. Who will know if you did or didn't anyway?

 

[sr71plt]

I think voting for them would be less unethical than campaigning for them on the forum.

 

[snoopercharmbrights]

... It's been my rule not to vote if more than one author for whom I work has an entry in a contest. I also won't vote when a story I've edited appears on Lit even when no contest is on.

Does anyone have any thoughts?

Why worry? The ultra-competitive types who enter these contests mostly vote 5 for their own stories anyway, and many of them vote 1 for rivals they think are doing well.

 

[cocput]

As an author, I wouldn't want my editor to vote for me, whether it is part of contest or not. I don't vote for my own story, and the same applies for any editor who was involved in the work.

Editors' contribution to the work, makes them part of the story creation process. So, a participating editor should not vote.

The logic is same as that for disallowing family members of employees to participate in a company's lottery scheme.

I am only making a point of ethics. In real life, that counts for nothing.

But, I don't think my opinions count a lot, as I am not into editing at all.

 

[estragon]

I think voting for them would be less unethical than campaigning for them on the forum.

Why, if full disclosure has been made? The thing about voting is that it is anonymous. "Campaigning", to use your term, on a BB, when I make it clear that I'm speaking of an author for whom I work, who is in the race, lets everyone know my viewpoint (or bias, if that word makes you happier). So they can govern their voting preferences accordingly. No one is, or should be, deceived or misled.

 

[sr71plt]

No worries about the ethics of it, since you aren't an editor either. What you are doing is ambulance chasing and trying to gather some status of authority here, coaxing folks to get no more than an uninformed second read in exchange for extra publicity on the forum.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

I'm puzzled. In November you will see Obama voting for himself - followed by his wife, campaign manager, chief fund raiser and ... They will all campaign for him beforehand and we all understand their bias and adjust our opinions accordingly.

On lit, voters are anonymous so it is impossible to segregate the people who have an overarching antipathy to the author from her friends and allies. So, in my view, without cheating and by re-reading the published story on the site, everyone, including the author is eligible to vote, once.

Drumming up support, usually on Story Feedback or a contest support thread, is clearly flagged as begging if done in the name of the author. Anyone else connected to the author - husband, close friend, beta reader, editor etc., should declare their interest but this doesn't bar them for beating the publicity drum.

With nearly 100 stories per day being posted, getting noticed is becoming more and more difficult. Any legitimate means of attracting attention to the story - think Lady Gaga here - should be pursued vigorously.

The flip side is that if someone doesn't like your editor, you may get a negative reaction. Not you estragon! I wasn't being personal. You are a treasure.

 

[estragon]

No worries about the ethics of it, since you aren't an editor either. What you are doing is ambulance chasing and trying to gather some status of authority here, coaxing folks to get no more than an uninformed second read in exchange for extra publicity on the forum.

Excuse me? I'm not an editor? That's your opinion. Ask the writers I work for, who have more red "H"s and blue "W"'s than you'll ever see.

As for ambulance chasing, save that cheap jibe for someone to whom it belongs.

You talk about swiftboating, and you're the biggest swiftboater there is.

 

[estragon]

"Not you estragon! I wasn't being personal. You are a treasure."

Thanks, elfin.

 

[sr71plt]

Excuse me? I'm not an editor? That's your opinion. Ask the writers I work for, who have more red "H"s and blue "W"'s than you'll ever see.

As for ambulance chasing, save that cheap jibe for someone to whom it belongs.

You talk about swiftboating, and you're the biggest swiftboater there is.

You've acknowledged you're not an editor. If I'm swiftboating, please reveal what your editorial training is. I'm vetted to a moderator of this forum as a professional editor. If you are an editor, do the same thing (although you've acknowledged on the forum that you have no editorial training). In addition, I've looked at stories by authors you plug and say you've edited for. If their stories have been competently edited, they weren't following the editorial guidance you gave them.

You probably are helpful as a second pair of eyes. Nothing more.

You have gone to stories and, without request, said they needed editing and offered your services. You've done it to alts of mine, so I know you have done it. And you run threads on the forum laying your shingle out as an editorial guru. This is ambulance chasing. And in your case, without the credentials to back it up.

It's certainly buyer beware in editorial services here. But that doesn't mean the charlatans can't be identified.

You posed the question on this thread. No, I don't think voting for something you reviewed is unethical. Yes, I think that plugging stories you've edited on the forum (and "disappointing" some you didn't) and voluntarily pushing editing on people's stories in unsolicited comments would be unethical for an editor. But then you're not a trained editor, so I don't think editing ethics apply to you.

 

[lovecraft68]

I find it ironic that the editors here, whether "vetted" or not, come out in droves to answer and argue points, but when some poor shlep is looking for one, it is usually a fruitless search.

Maybe sometimes you can get lucky and grab one if they have time for one story, but to get a "steady" is pretty damn hard.

Start a debate however, and it's like dropping blood in a shark infested pool.

 

[sr71plt]

I do editing for folks here. I can't edit them all and write too, though. I just don't trumpet who I'm editing for. A good, trained editor stays in the woodwork, the piece is much better for them having been there, but it doesn't have their fingerprints and billboard plastered all over it.

But, yes, it's too bad there aren't more second readers available here (and being honest about the real help they can give). I continue suggesting that writers read stories like theirs, identify stories written well that are similar to what they want to write, and then contact those authors directly to see if they are interested in doing "second eyes" trading.

It isn't so much in how good the stories need to be here to get satisfaction out of posting them--it's the trumpet blowers who say they can do something they weren't trained to do and then deliver botched jobs the poor author doesn't even know are botched--and then has bad examples to follow in further writing.

 

[lovecraft68]

It isn't so much in how good the stories need to be here to get satisfaction out of posting them--it's the trumpet blowers who say they can do something they weren't trained to do and then deliver botched jobs the poor author doesn't even know are botched--and then has bad examples to follow in further writing.

When I started writing a few months before I started here, I had very little clue on grammar. It was never my strong suit in school and school was twenty five years ago.

I got lucky on my third attempt with a VE editor, or thought I did. Eventually when I began to look at other people's work and made an effort to pay attention to some things my wife was showing me, I realized that my VE was only slightly better than I was.

It showed in many of my early comments which seemed to follow the pattern of "Good story, but need an editor" so she was not so hot.

I was not upset at her, I mean hey get what you pay for right? It was nice of her to try.

But I don't think someone should volunteer when they don't have a clue. I've had a couple of newbies ask me to look at their stuff and I'm like "Are you kidding?" I'd feel like a jerk because I doubt I could be of much help, but at least I'll admit it.

 

[_Lynn_]

When I started writing a few months before I started here, I had very little clue on grammar. It was never my strong suit in school and school was twenty five years ago.

I got lucky on my third attempt with a VE editor, or thought I did. Eventually when I began to look at other people's work and made an effort to pay attention to some things my wife was showing me, I realized that my VE was only slightly better than I was.

It showed in many of my early comments which seemed to follow the pattern of "Good story, but need an editor" so she was not so hot.

I was not upset at her, I mean hey get what you pay for right? It was nice of her to try.

But I don't think someone should volunteer when they don't have a clue. I've had a couple of newbies ask me to look at their stuff and I'm like "Are you kidding?" I'd feel like a jerk because I doubt I could be of much help, but at least I'll admit it.

Often a person who volunteers believes he/she has a clue. Instead of following grammar rules, the person follows what sounds or looks correct. The person isn't helping others that way. However, Lit doesn't test anyone before accepting them into the VE program so that means anyone can call themselves a VE.

I've worked with several authors who did editing for me in the past. A few made excellent suggestions and helped me a great deal. The others shouldn't have claimed they could help.

I've edited for a lot of people here but I'm not an editor in the true sense of the word. What I can do is point out grammar and punctuation errors and offer suggestions to make the story flow smoother. I just don't go around talking about everyone I helped.

And for the record, high school was forty years ago for me.

 

[lovecraft68]

Often a person who volunteers believes he/she has a clue. Instead of following grammar rules, the person follows what sounds or looks correct. The person isn't helping others that way. However, Lit doesn't test anyone before accepting them into the VE program so that means anyone can call themselves a VE.

I've worked with several authors who did editing for me in the past. A few made excellent suggestions and helped me a great deal. The others shouldn't have claimed they could help.

I've edited for a lot of people here but I'm not an editor in the true sense of the word. What I can do is point out grammar and punctuation errors and offer suggestions to make the story flow smoother. I just don't go around talking about everyone I helped.

And for the record, high school was forty years ago for me.

But I believe you are back in school no?

I continue to delude myself into thinking I am going to take a basic English course then perhaps a writing course or two. Key word is deluding.

I don;t think you have to be vetted or formally trained to be of some assistance, after all this is a free site where most are writing for fun, but I believe the VE should have some knowledge beyond "sounds good"

I'm not trained as an accountant, but every year I get stuck doing taxes for at least a dozen friends because back in the day I did take a couple of courses and seem to have a knack for understanding the rules, but numbers behave in finite patterns English is full of a lot of little "i before e except for etc...." so it would be nice if the person had something behind them other than "good at English"

 

[_Lynn_]

But I believe you are back in school no?

I continue to delude myself into thinking I am going to take a basic English course then perhaps a writing course or two. Key word is deluding.

I don;t think you have to be vetted or formally trained to be of some assistance, after all this is a free site where most are writing for fun, but I believe the VE should have some knowledge beyond "sounds good"

I'm not trained as an accountant, but every year I get stuck doing taxes for at least a dozen friends because back in the day I did take a couple of courses and seem to have a knack for understanding the rules, but numbers behave in finite patterns English is full of a lot of little "i before e except for etc...." so it would be nice if the person had something behind them other than "good at English"

I finished my degree last month.

 

[PennLady]

I finished my degree last month.

Congratulations!

 

[_Lynn_]

Congratulations!

Thanks.

 

[estragon]

If I were to read, much less respond to, all the accusations made against me, this office might as well be closed to any other business. If I am right, I am right; if I am wrong, ten thousand angels swearing I was right would make no difference.

And I am right.

Thanks to all who responded. It has been instructive. Now I'm going back to work.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

If I were to read, much less respond to, all the accusations made against me, this office might as well be closed to any other business. If I am right, I am right; if I am wrong, ten thousand angels swearing I was right would make no difference.

And I am right.

Thanks to all who responded. It has been instructive. Now I'm going back to work.

estragon, you are a literotica editor (and much appreciated) as much as all us scribblers are writers. It is a voluntary site and any mention of 'professional' is irrelevant.

Stories Feedback has been destroyed by bile. Ignoring scouries bullying and lying, SF used to be a place where the semi-literate used to help those who were slightly further behind. The CMS was never mentioned, just suggestions to make a story more readable and attractive.

If you go back through the pantheon of writers like Black Shanglan, Rumple Foreskin, Abstruse, Jenny Jackson, Impressive, Belegon, etc. who gave good advice, you will see how aggressive bullying by those who pretend to have an interest in writing rather than their anally-retentive ego has destroyed the forum's ethos.

It is fine to be 'professional' but most 'professionals' I work with don't need to scream their abilities across sites like literotica. It is the mark of an inadequate.

 

[sr71plt]

Estagon "edited" the last Lit. contribution you made--six years ago--did he, Elfin? You are so full of bullshit.

And Jenny Jackson. Yes, I remember her. She told everyone who asked that their work was crap and she joined you in trying to call tense person and saying every character had to have a name given off the top of the story.

It was in pointing out that you two were clueless in your critiques here that set you off stalking me.

But I'm game for pursuing your endorsement of Estagon's critiquing ability. Please point to one of his critiques, dear. All I've ever seen is the suggestion that something needs editing without demonstrating that it either does or that he can fix it. So, point to some of his brilliant editorial critiques.

He's sort of like you. Innuendo and assertions and when it's time to back them up, he/you are gone.

Like now and pointing to his wonderful editorial critiques, I'm betting.

 

[estragon]

Estagon "edited" the last Lit. contribution you made--six years ago--did he, Elfin? You are so full of bullshit.

And Jenny Jackson. Yes, I remember her. She told everyone who asked that their work was crap and she joined you in trying to call tense person and saying every character had to have a name given off the top of the story.

It was in pointing out that you two were clueless in your critiques here that set you off stalking me.

But I'm game for pursuing your endorsement of Estagon's critiquing ability. Please point to one of his critiques, dear. All I've ever seen is the suggestion that something needs editing without demonstrating that it either does or that he can fix it. So, point to some of his brilliant editorial critiques.

He's sort of like you. Innuendo and assertions and when it's time to back them up, he/you are gone.

Like now and pointing to his wonderful editorial critiques, I'm betting.

I never edited anything that Elfin wrote.

And as for editorial critiques, when you wrote a courtroom scene that would convulse any lawyer who read it with hysterical laughter, and I called you on it privately, you got all stroppy and decided to swiftboat me, unsuccessfully, of course. And where are your successful authors on this site, except in your feeble imagination? My authors acknowledge me. I've named them, and they've named me. Now go read them, if you dare.

 

[sr71plt]

And as for editorial critiques, when you wrote a courtroom scene that would convulse any lawyer who read it with hysterical laughter, and I called you on it privately, you got all stroppy and decided to swiftboat me, unsuccessfully, of course. And where are your successful authors on this site, except in your feeble imagination? My authors acknowledge me. I've named them, and they've named me. Now go read them, if you dare.

Nor do you post detailed critiques where Elfin could have seen them, right? Which puts a "bullshit" to her endorsement of your "brilliant" editorial skills. So, so much for her agenda on this thread.

Yes, I know you name your authors--that's part of your shyster "it's all about me" technique here. And no, I don't. But since I like to nip swiftboating in the bud, ask Dr. M. who edited the books The Moth's Song and Vampires of Prague in his sig line here. That should be enough to spike that little attack. Just a little slice off the top.

I have read some of "your" authors (like you own them. typical). That's one reason I know you're not an editor. Another reason is that you have stated your relevant background--and none of it is relevant to be calling yourself an editor.

It's not swiftboating, by the way, if it's true. Let's not go any farther on that until/unless you vet with the website as I did, if you want to sustain the claim to be an editor.

You are perhaps a second reader--nothing closer to being an editor. And "your authors" slobber over you because they don't know any better concerning what's being done to their work and because you pump them up on the forum. You're an ambulance chaser.

Take a look around the forum. What other reader/editor here is running "stroke my authors" and "my disappointments with those not my authors" threads, campaigning for contest votes for their authors, and posting "you need an editor because--for some reason you don't specify" comments on their stories? One would think that would give you a clue on what bad "editor" behavior is here.

This nonsense can stop just as soon as you stop posting to it.