Conflict in MFM Romance

[madam_noe]

I've been busy with writing lately,working on my 2 novels as well as the serial stories here and did a slight happy dance when I just finished the end of "Darkness Calling."

My luck, an editor at Red Sage I've been talking to for a year asked me last week for a summary for an erotic romance. I created one that's a mystery and involves 1 woman falling in love with 2 men, best friends. The sex will be mostly MFM and the men are straight, not bi. Now she wants it ASAP so my schedule just got busier.

Romantic stories have specific pacing and of course the conflict has to primarily be: the characters are perfect for one another but what keeps them from fucking? In historical you'll note this conflict usually comes from the heroine's virginity and how that is tied up to her honor. In modern romances it's usually suspicion or mistrust between the two.

What are your thoughts on the conflict coming from over thinking sexual mores? I have it that my heroine Shannon dated Aiden in high school and was always attracted to his best friend Nick. Her mother who died young was the town slut and so she's always been afraid of having that reputation herself. The boys agreed to have a MFM high school graduation night but when they approached her she panicked and ran.

Nine years later she's back in town to help find her cousin who's gone missing. Aiden, now an FBI agent, is working another case that's related, and bad boy Nick has grown up to be a local cop. They all team up and the only plausible reason I can find for her not to fuck their brains out right away is worry about becoming a slut.

In short, does that have a place in a modern romance? My main worry is it might become too much like the horrid, horrid sludge of the most recent Anita Blake novels by Laurell K. Hamilton. To me they read like a Jewish or Catholic porno (you know that old joke: 45 minutes of begging, 5 minutes of sex, and 2 hours of guilt). I want to avoid that.

So, should the conflict be internal guilt/worry? If not, what are any suggestions? Perhaps adding a 4th person to the trip would do it, but then I have 4 main characters to rite and that can get damn tricky.

Any help is appreciated!

 

[Stella_Omega]

I am absolutely sick to death of "conflict over sexual mores." And after fifty years of women's rights and social advance, it's still the only conflict that most romance writers can come up with.

Which is one of the reasons I don't read Romances too much.

I'm sorry that I don't have a solution for you, beyond changing your genre a little bit.

 

[madam_noe]

Well on another site someone suggested this: Shannon doesn't want to pursue a LTR because she would prefer to not move back, but she does begin to have sex with them pretty quickly, it's the love she resists and only because she wants to live a life in a big city away from her small hometown.

Any thoughts on that? It does suit an erotic romance a bit more, methinks, and that's what I'm being paid to write...erotic romance. Can't change the genre.

 

[RedHairedandFriendly]

I think you should write what comes to you and what your characters tell you to write, don't ask others to write it for you because they aren't the creators of your work, and your words are what will draw the readers in. I hope you are able to meet your deadline, good luck and congrats on finishing the other project you spoke of.

 

[SydneyBlake]

Well on another site someone suggested this: Shannon doesn't want to pursue a LTR because she would prefer to not move back, but she does begin to have sex with them pretty quickly, it's the love she resists and only because she wants to live a life in a big city away from her small hometown.

Any thoughts on that? It does suit an erotic romance a bit more, methinks, and that's what I'm being paid to write...erotic romance. Can't change the genre.

I see that working, as long as you can get your male protags to cooperate.

 

[Stella_Omega]

"what your characters tell you to write" always makes me laugh. That places the writer at the mercy of their own imagination's limits, limited by the limits of a couple of figments. And make no mistake, each of us is limited in our imagination.

OP came here with a technical problem, one that has technical solutions, and asked for input. The details of that have nothing to do with the words she chooses to put her solution out there.

 

[SydneyBlake]

"what your characters tell you to write" always makes me laugh. That places the writer at the mercy of their own imagination's limits, limited by the limits of a couple of figments. And make no mistake, each of us is limited in our imagination.

OP came here with a technical problem, one that has technical solutions, and asked for input. The details of that have nothing to do with the words she chooses to put her solution out there.

That's a pantser who doesn't realize he's in a cage.

 

[RedHairedandFriendly]

"what your characters tell you to write" always makes me laugh. That places the writer at the mercy of their own imagination's limits, limited by the limits of a couple of figments. And make no mistake, each of us is limited in our imagination.

OP came here with a technical problem, one that has technical solutions, and asked for input. The details of that have nothing to do with the words she chooses to put her solution out there.

You're right, but I do know that my characters seem to steer me in one direction over another. I know we all have limits.

 

[LettersFromTatyana]

Well on another site someone suggested this: Shannon doesn't want to pursue a LTR because she would prefer to not move back, but she does begin to have sex with them pretty quickly, it's the love she resists and only because she wants to live a life in a big city away from her small hometown.

Any thoughts on that? It does suit an erotic romance a bit more, methinks, and that's what I'm being paid to write...erotic romance. Can't change the genre.

It could work. My only gripe about these stories is when small town living is characterized by its moral superiority, and when the main character is nudged into giving up his/her big city dreams for the aw-shucks small town atmosphere, where the people are just soooo much nicer than those meanies in the big city.

I'm not saying your story will automatically become one of these, just . . . watch out.

 

[PennLady]

Romantic stories have specific pacing and of course the conflict has to primarily be: the characters are perfect for one another but what keeps them from fucking? In historical you'll note this conflict usually comes from the heroine's virginity and how that is tied up to her honor. In modern romances it's usually suspicion or mistrust between the two.

I don't think romantic stories have to have a specific pacing, although most of them do. What keeps people from sleeping together? Not much these days.

I haven't read a ton of historical romances, and I'd agree that the heroine's virginal status is an issue. However, to me it's not quite that cut and dried. For
one thing, it's not like there really was a time when all women were virgins except for the "bad ones." I think there's always been plenty of extra-marital sex, and perhaps the issue is more whether anyone was caught or not.

As for modern romances, which is what I write, I think you have a lot more room to maneuver. People might mistrust themselves, not just the other person. People might not realize that what's in front of them is what they need. They could be looking so hard for an ideal partner or relationship that they don't see it in front of them. They might not want to sleep with their best friend b/c of ruining the friendship -- I mean, the list goes on.

And you know, the question is often not what keeps them from fucking -- it's what keeps them from falling in love. That's the romance issue.

Nine years later she's back in town to help find her cousin who's gone missing. Aiden, now an FBI agent, is working another case that's related, and bad boy Nick has grown up to be a local cop. They all team up and the only plausible reason I can find for her not to fuck their brains out right away is worry about becoming a slut.

Can't she just not want to have sex with them b/c she's worried about what she'll think of herself? Can't they get to know each other again? Maybe at first she's not sure she even likes them on seeing them again. I mean, come on, there have got to be better reasons than that for not sleeping with a guy (or guys). Can't she just not want to?

In short, does that have a place in a modern romance? My main worry is it might become too much like the horrid, horrid sludge of the most recent Anita Blake novels by Laurell K. Hamilton. To me they read like a Jewish or Catholic porno (you know that old joke: 45 minutes of begging, 5 minutes of sex, and 2 hours of guilt). I want to avoid that.

Oh, good, it's not just me that was put off by Blake/Hamilton. I read one book (maybe a trilogy, it was one large book) and despite my sf/f/etc. leanings, I had no desire to read any more.

Anyway, as for worry about being a slut -- I won't say it doesn't have a place, but I think it has a limited place, such as in small conservative towns, or neighborhoods maybe. Or if she's worried about what relatives might think. Otherwise I'm not sure. Most people simply aren't surprised by the number of sexual relations others have (and likely aren't interested either).

So, should the conflict be internal guilt/worry? If not, what are any suggestions? Perhaps adding a 4th person to the trip would do it, but then I have 4 main characters to rite and that can get damn tricky.

Any help is appreciated!

Sorry I'm probably more venting or rambling than helping. Maybe you need to look more at what kind of characters you have. I mean, this woman, Shannon -- is she the type who can do sex with no strings? This isn't a matter of mores, this is just a matter of people. Some can have sex with no other attachments, others can't. Are the men that way? What about them makes them willing to share her in a threesome? Do they worry about falling in love with her?

 

[Neonurotic]

They all team up and the only plausible reason I can find for her not to fuck their brains out right away is worry about becoming a slut.

That reasoning would probably work for YA, though I don't think even teenage girls today are too worried about being a matteress anymore let alone a grown woman.

 

[madam_noe]

Thanks to all the ideas and comments so far. I have to admit, like most of you, I don't really like romance novels for the same reasons I've seen in this thread.

Sorry I'm probably more venting or rambling than helping. Maybe you need to look more at what kind of characters you have. I mean, this woman, Shannon -- is she the type who can do sex with no strings? This isn't a matter of mores, this is just a matter of people. Some can have sex with no other attachments, others can't. Are the men that way? What about them makes them willing to share her in a threesome? Do they worry about falling in love with her?

The reason they (as I have them currently) want a MFM threesome is that they have shared everything in life. Nick was a bad boy growing up, no father, an alcoholic mother, poor, and Aiden, his best friend, shared everything with him, from toys to friends. Then in high school Aiden and Shannon dated, fell in love, and she was very close to Nick and attracted to him. As it is now, they were in love with both, but such good friends neither was bothered by the other loving her.

They've shared so much in life that they like the thought of sharing a lover because it will keep them bond together.

I admit, I've based this off of real life MFM threesomes I've had. It's always been with 2 men who are straight and best friends who seem to like sharing everything and are a little bit kinky.

Sadly what makes a romance novel is 2+ people falling in love, but only against things in life that challenge that love. Not my favorite genre, but I am getting paid for this. The only real romance story I feel I've writing is Kate the Kid (on here) and that was easy: Kate didn't want to fuck because she didn't trust Rafe at first and she didn't want a man, she wanted to be alone.

So far it seems the way the characters have taken shape Aiden and Nick would want to be with her, are somewhat in love with her, but it's Shannon in lust with them and resisting love. I need the conflict to help it be a full novel. Ugh, a short erotic romantic story is sooooo much easier!

 

[SydneyBlake]

What are her reasons for resisting? This kind of turns the stereotype on its head, with the woman resisting. What would make her change her mind?

 

[3113]

"slut's" not a good enough reason

The slut thing doesn't' work unless she's raised very conservative and/or lives in a small, gossipy town and fears gossip and ostracism more than anything (something like a gay men being found out and persecuted for being gay), and/or is in high school where mean kids will bully others with such names if word gets around.

Otherwise, it's bogus. I mean why consider an mfm *at all*--why consider any sex before marriage--if one is afraid of being called a "slut"? Just to keep the friendship together? If so, she's dumb as a box of rocks. Growing up anywhere she MUST have seen at least one example of a girl having sex with her boyfriend's best friend and that turning out badly and ending everything--the boyfriend, the friendship, etc.

I mean, come on, be logical here. If she and the guys ALL believe that they need to share everything, even this sexual experience, then the LAST thing that would worry her would be the fear of being called a slut. Because if they're that close, then these guys are not going to brag, are not going to write about it on facebook, are not going to film it and put it on YouTube. Except in her own mind, who is going to call her a slut?--and again, if it bothers her in her own mind, then she hasn't and won't have sex before marriage to one man, let alone consider a threesome.

So who is going to know and call her a slut? And if the two guys will respect her in the morning, then what is the problem?

The slut idea paints you into a corner because it makes no sense. Either she's so afraid and conservative that she's not ready to have sex before marriage with anyone, or these three share everything and she knows that this is between them and will not make her a "slut" (see "Brokeback Mountain"--"it's not anyone else's business....")

If she's going to run from it, she's going to run from it for fear that it will ruin things and break up the friendship. Close as they are, important as they are to her, that would be enough to make her panic and bolt. Which is to say, I think you have everything you need there already to make her leery of this; you don't need to tack on that extra fear of being a "slut" and it will look tacked on it you do so. Like you didn't trust there was enough there already to make her uncertain.

 

[Weird Harold]

What are your thoughts on the conflict coming from over thinking sexual mores? I have it that my heroine Shannon dated Aiden in high school and was always attracted to his best friend Nick. Her mother who died young was the town slut and so she's always been afraid of having that reputation herself. The boys agreed to have a MFM high school graduation night but when they approached her she panicked and ran.

Nine years later she's back in town to help find her cousin who's gone missing. Aiden, now an FBI agent, is working another case that's related, and bad boy Nick has grown up to be a local cop. They all team up and the only plausible reason I can find for her not to fuck their brains out right away is worry about becoming a slut.

Perhaps it isn't her resisting the MFM?

Two teenage boys might agree to try a MFM but the same individuals a decade later have places in thecommunity an reputations to protect.

Your heroine can agonize some over the possibile reputation she might gain, but convincingn two grown men tomshare is bound to be more difficult than convincing two teenagers.

Another potential source of conflict is scheduling -- both men are subject to recall to duty without notice and your heroine is investigating a disappearance so she could get a tip or clue at inconvenient times, too.

 

[Firebrain]

A few things here spring to mind:

a) It's an erotic romance. By definition, this means the sex has to happen sooner rather than later. Your plot must be partially driven by sex, in fact.
b) That means you don't keep them all apart for as long as possible, but have to find a feasible way to get them into bed together that's convincing, within the first three chapters or so.
c) You need a good reason for these straight dudes to be sharing her in bed, because that doesn't happen too often. It must convince the reader. To be honest, I'd have them bi and they experimented in highschool, as you insinuated. The bi guys sharing a girl is a popular plot device in romance. (Perhaps she goes into the MFM thinking she can get these guys together finally, and have fun at the same time? ER readers want a heroine who gives in to her desires, and enjoys them).
d) You want the reader to like your heroine, which means she can't mess these two about too much. This is where your outside conflict comes into play. Your outside conflict--stuff happening independently of the relationship--is what will cause the tension. PLEASE don't make her worry about "being a slut." It demeans your readership, who want to read about "slutty" behaviour Erotic romance is very, very different from 70s Harlequin romances, which is where this sentiment was popular.
e) The "she doesn't want to commit" cliche doesn't wash. Step away from it. Think of the real reasons people resist relationships: er...there aren't many. So screw the resisting and have your suspense plot interfere instead.

Remember that your outside conflict must be plausible, and is a significant part of the plot. You've mentioned a suspense/mystery element--make sure it's strong and guides the story. It's erotic romance, so the pacing basically reads: partners meet, have sex, something goes wrong, it's okay--more sex, something else goes wrong, studs save the day, more sex.

In other words, if you don't want it to read like LK Hamilton, you're in the wrong frickin' genre. Whether you like it or not, she carved the way for the erotic rom market.

I work for a romance publisher and write for another. Let me know if I can be of any more help.

 

[Firebrain]

Perhaps it isn't her resisting the MFM?

Another potential source of conflict is scheduling -- both men are subject to recall to duty without notice and your heroine is investigating a disappearance so she could get a tip or clue at inconvenient times, too.

No, not in erotic rom. Characters being apart for significant amounts of time is an editorial bugbear because it means no sex.

 

[Firebrain]

Finally, can I suggest you go out and read some romance novels you DO like instead of more or less insulting the whole genre? It's not your favourite, but you're being paid to do it? Let's be honest here: you'll be lucky to earn three figures off a romance ebook for a small publisher. You don't want to write it? Don't.

 

[madam_noe]

I have in fact read hundreds of romance novels and erotic romance novels. I'm a bibliophile who will read anything, and sometimes that does mean romance novels. So far in every one I've read the conflicts can be lumped into the 2 categories I mentioned in my initial post.

Ironically, the best help I've gotten is from another site from people who are readers, not writers. So far with their help brainstorming, possible conflicts boil down to 4 choices:

1) They all fear garnering a weird reputation since they're a threesome

2) They have moral quandaries about enjoying this mildly kinky form of sex

3) the female resists a serious relationship because she lives normally far away and doesn't want to be tied down

4) They all want MFM sex but the idea of a LTR that's MFM makes them nervous

In this modern age yes a woman still has to fear being called a slut as it can adversely affect one's life, so that will likely always factor into my heroine's thinking. However, in the world of romance novels we are NEVER using reality. The men must be dominate and though the women are to be strong, they must have some traditionally "feminine virtues."

The guidelines of the publisher I'm writing for include that any sport sex the heroine engages in must either be in the past and she mostly regrets it, or must be engaged in with the male protagonist(s) consciously while an emotional bond develops unconsciously.

So far I favor #3 and #4, possibly using them both. The men live both just outside Porte Barre, LA (close to Baton Rouge) where the heroine is from, but she currently lives in Chicago, IL, and a relationship would mean moving back (though I have a plot device that will ultimately make her able to do this easily).

 

[PennLady]

So far I favor #3 and #4, possibly using them both. The men live both just outside Porte Barre, LA (close to Baton Rouge) where the heroine is from, but she currently lives in Chicago, IL, and a relationship would mean moving back (though I have a plot device that will ultimately make her able to do this easily).

Won't that remove the tension from her decision, though? I'm not trying to be flip here, I'm really asking. If there's something there that eases the whole transition as opposed to having the character struggle with the issue, then it's not much of an issue. It's akin, in my mind, to harming the main character in a show; I mean, they're not going to kill "Castle" b/c then you'd have no show. If you set up your points A and C with conflict at B in between, but then have an arc connecting B and C, there's no conflict. I think that made more sense in my head, but I hope you see what I mean.

I think many of those of us who have chimed in should probably realize -- we're not commenting on MFM (or FMF or whatever) romances. MOST romances are MF, despite the inroads of the GM genre lately. There are new and different tensions that can come from a (true?) threesome.

It is quite possible, for example, that a woman can sleep around and not really be thought of as a slut. but if it gets around that she's slept with more than one guy at once, that's different.

Still, as I think 3113 pointed out, if she's willing to get into that kind of sexual relationship, she would (I hope) be strong enough to withstand whatever anyone else would think, since she's probably already outside the "norm."

Actually, I think #s 2 and 4 would ring truer to me than #3 -- the distance thing feels forced; sort of like a cop out. Like, oh, I need conflict, so, hey! I'll make her live far away.

 

[JackLuis]

On the other Hand,

She's going back to her big city life and what the hell does she care about her reputation in this sleepy little berg?

She wants to see what she missed, She hasn't missed much in the city. Her mother had been right, it was "in the jeans"that lust springs forth.

She can want to fuck them both and would even do them separately, because of the FBI, calling one away, and then the other being called away, leaving her panting wanting, barely able to concentrate as they solve the crime/mystery.

She's then torn between them, they are so different than before. How can she choose? Decisions decisions, and she's changing panties three times a day!

Why is a man better than a vibrator?

A vibrator can't mow the lawn or take out the trash.

 

[LucyH]

more reasons not to jump into bed instantly:

She thinks she might be pregnant with somebody else's baby, and wonders if she should try to get back together with him and make it work. He'd be horribly jealous if he found out she slept with these guys. Then it turns out she's not pregnant and whew!


She had a friend who dated a couple of guys at once, and the relationship happened to be a total dysfunctional disaster that ended in multiple restraining orders and lawsuits, and she's extrapolating and thinking she really doesn't need that kind of chaos in her life, and she should really pick one guy. But which one? If she sleeps with one, she sees it as making a choice. But she can't choose! Then it dawns on her that this might work after all because the 3 of them aren't half as crazy as those other people.

She just broke up with someone, and everyone tells her to take a little time being single and regain her emotional equilibrium before she tries to date. Really, that would be the smart thing to do.

 

[NikkiBastion]

I tend to agree with those on the side of the fence that say refusal for sexual mores is just boring and unrealistic and cliche'.

If there's no good reason for them to not do it, just let them do it and don't use sex as a conflict either way. I've not read a ton of erotica or romance but it seems this is so overly used it's in every story I've ever come across, usually written by a female. The guys don't tend to worry with it as much so theirs always strikes me as more realistic...until the part where a wanton slut of a woman wants to hump them after 2 minutes, which also isn't realistic

A threatened ego is usually more than enough conflict to irritate people without it being anything sexual = they hate each other but can't stop having sex, it's typical relationship mores. How about when they were in school, immature and inexperienced, one of them just makes some snide comment that leaves an impression on the other to the point that in spite of the lust factor, the exposure or the slap itself keeps them at arm's length.

Here's a little illustration - personal experience - I think I was 15ish, 16 around there and was out at the pool with my friends when these 3 older teens or early 20s showed up to hang out. One guy was stunning and I couldn't take my eyes off him. Still a virgin and the sight of him made me hate being one. Because I was so honed into him, listening to him, watching him, I was overhearing some conversation he was having with his friends - and he rolled off this comment about having fingered his girlfriend (I wasn't even sure what he meant) and then he held up 2 fingers and mock sniffed them, and then very crassly said his fingers smell like tuna and they made fun of her.

I wasn't even involved in it, just listening to him but he went there and it literally gave me a complex up until I lost my virginity years later...and I never forgot what he said so I was convinced mine would too and the one I was with would say that shit sitting out at a pool with his friends, I'd be humiliated - scared me to death

(I totally got over it)

Erotica and romance are different things, I know but it's the 21st century, and women portrayed in these stories are depicted as strong and confident but given stereotypical and repressive ideas about sex...it's easy to ruin an otherwise good story when she's got too many hang ups about sex. Let her indulge freely...give her some other conflict - it doesn't always have to be about sex.

Or, if you just have to...turn the tables and let her be a wanton slut, indulging herself all over the place, and the conflict for her comes when she tags both these guys for her own thrills and ends up conflicted over whether or not she can do just one (or two)....I'd rather see that than some alleged heroine whining about what the neighbors will think if they find out she's nailing 2 guys. They'd probably be envious...

There's nothing wrong with being the slut...sluts love sex, and a slut is way more likely to nail 2 guys at the same time than some self proclaimed princess who has to be in love before she gives head.

 

[Firebrain]

I have in fact read hundreds of romance novels and erotic romance novels. I'm a bibliophile who will read anything, and sometimes that does mean romance novels. So far in every one I've read the conflicts can be lumped into the 2 categories I mentioned in my initial post.

Ironically, the best help I've gotten is from another site from people who are readers, not writers. So far with their help brainstorming, possible conflicts boil down to 4 choices:

1) They all fear garnering a weird reputation since they're a threesome

2) They have moral quandaries about enjoying this mildly kinky form of sex

3) the female resists a serious relationship because she lives normally far away and doesn't want to be tied down

4) They all want MFM sex but the idea of a LTR that's MFM makes them nervous

In this modern age yes a woman still has to fear being called a slut as it can adversely affect one's life, so that will likely always factor into my heroine's thinking. However, in the world of romance novels we are NEVER using reality. The men must be dominate and though the women are to be strong, they must have some traditionally "feminine virtues."

The guidelines of the publisher I'm writing for include that any sport sex the heroine engages in must either be in the past and she mostly regrets it, or must be engaged in with the male protagonist(s) consciously while an emotional bond develops unconsciously.

So far I favor #3 and #4, possibly using them both. The men live both just outside Porte Barre, LA (close to Baton Rouge) where the heroine is from, but she currently lives in Chicago, IL, and a relationship would mean moving back (though I have a plot device that will ultimately make her able to do this easily).

Awesome. We'll be seeing you, then.

Because writers can't be readers, can they?

(That second bit I bolded? That's absolute tripe. Good luck selling this book).

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I'm going to disagree. I don't see fear for her reputation as being as big a source of erotic tension as her fear for her own self-image and sense of self-respect. Those are what she's trying to protect, not just what people say about her. If all she's worried about is her reputation, then that means she's already admitted to herself that she's the kind of girl who'd enjoy a 3-way, which doesn't seem to jibe with the portrait you've painted of her as a woman frightened of being a slut.

Despite what Stella says (we travel in different sexual circles), it's a woman's self-image that keeps her from flopping on her back at the slightest request and being as sexually profligate as a man. She doesn't want to think of herself as a slut. The woman's reluctance is the source of tension in 9 out of 10 erotic romances. A romance is basically a long, drawn-out seduction. It's not the men who are reluctant to fuck.

I think you've got a problem with pulling off this 3-way. If she's attracted to these two guys, I think she'd be a lot more likely to go to bed with them individually rather than jump into the sack with the two of them. Only a real sexual adventuress would do something like that. Nor would two men be especially enamored of sharing a woman for the first time unless they had less than perfect respect for her. Or unless the men were already erotically involved with each other, which might be a nice way to pull this off.

The other possibility is to force them into the 3-way. Forced to share a bed in some remote cabin in a storm or something. The guys start fondling her, playing with her, one on each side...

3-ways are inherently dirty. That's why they're hot. Unless the 3 people are all in love with each other, a 3-way isn't an act of love as much as it's an act of physical pleasure. If you've got a woman who's afraid of being a slut hopping into the sack with 2 high school buddies, you've got some explaining to do.