confederate flag on the Georgia flag

[WriterDom]

confederate flag on the Georgia flag

After removing the confederate flag from the South Carolina capital building, the next target is the confederate flag incorporated into the Georgia flag. Do you think it should be removed, and if so, should all remnants and memorials of the "old south" be removed?

 

[TonyG]

Yes, I think it should be removed, but I don't believe all remnants should be removed. Our country's history must be kept alive and I am sure there are constructive ways of incorporating the confederate flag which would be acceptable to everyone.


Thought this might help your thread. I hope that is ok with you.

http://www.50states.com/flag/image/nunst014.gif

 

[CreamyLady]

I think a lot depends on what it really symbolizes. To many, it symbolizes slavery, repression, fear, poverty and hopelessness. To others, it represents bravery, individualism, a time of flowering.

It doesn't seem that there is a way to reconcile those views, at least to me. This is the trouble with history, sometimes. The facts can be obscured by the subjective viewpoints of the people looking at them.

Personally, I think the time to get rid of it as a gesture of reparation is long past. Getting rid of it now would be a political victory, since I'm not sure that anyone, personally, would feel a sense of remorse, relief, shame, vindication -- anything that would make such a gesture meaningful.

An empty political gesture is just that -- empty. Much more meaningful would be continued efforts to grow and move forward, benefitting everyone in the state. People who can't get past a dead symbol are going to have problems looking forward.

This is my own view, of course.

 

[KillerMuffin]

I'm not white, so don't bring it up.

I don't think it should have been touched. The flag represents a part of history that is very close to a large group of people. It was about the states having the rights to make decisions on their own without the federal government's sayso. One of the issues was slavery, and there were many others that just got washed away. The confederate flag represents a group of states that wanted to secede from the Union and become their own nation. They envisioned a weaker federal government where the majority of the legislation was passed by the state governments, not the federal government.

This, I think, is still true. How many people even know who their state representatives are?

The slavery issue, while a big one, was the issue that caused the war. It wasn't the issue that caused the states to revolt and form the confederacy. On it's own, slavery wouldn't have started a war. Not because they weren't due the attention, but because people really don't care that much about things that aren't in their sphere of living.

Slavery was introduced to create a more sympathetic Union public to attacking the south for leaving the Union, most northerners could really have cared less, without a good reason to lean on. Honestly, think about it, if Hawaii or Alaska wanted to leave the union and the only way to stop them was to go to war with them, how much would you care?

The rebel flag isn't about whether a man should own another man because he's black. The rebel flag is about whether or not a state should have the right to determine it's own future. It doesn't. Case in point, the 80s when all speed limits were 55 mph, only so recently deregulated.

So, in my opinion, the rebel flag should stay. Despite the dark part of slave owning, the confederates have a lot to be proud of in regards to standing up for their own rights.

 

[Juliangel]

should all remnants and memorials of the "old south" be removed?

The largest memorial in the south would be very hard to remove. I am talking about the carving on the side of Stone Mountain.

I mean they fit a large picnic table in the horse's nose while they were carving it and ate lunch in there (I know gross) How would you remove that, the carving notthe table.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

My position has always been this:

Why should ANY American State permit Federal Buildings or State Government buildings to fly the standard of the treasonous Confederate States of America? In a bar, restaurant, rec room, lodge hall, sure, I have no problem with people connecting to the past. But the symbol of a movement that committed treason against the United States on a United States government building...? How is that justified? Treason is still the only thing outside of murder for which you can receive the death penalty. The Confederate Flag is the flag of a treasonous force that took over half the country, printed its own money, elected its own President, and threw the country into the bloodiest war of its history. (And before anyone compares the morality of the Confederates to that of the Revolitionists, stop, because there are enormous political differences.)

So. The Confedrate Flag flying over your backyard? Of course. Over the dome of United States Capitol building?

Of course not.

 

[ranajja]

Well said, KM...

I'm a southern girl, myself, and Georgia's not the only Southern state facing this issue.

The War Between the States was not just about slavery, but unfortunately, that's the issue it's been boiled down to.

Change the flag? Put it to a vote and let all of us decide...

 

[Ambrosious]

Put it to a vote

And 49% of Georgians want the flag to stay the same and want the politicians to take up some IMPORTANT issues, not just "feel good legislation".

 

[Skibum]

I am of two minds on this issue. While I do agree with DCL about the symbol of treason, there is the First Amendment to consider. If we are going to allow the burning of the US flag as a form of political statement, how can we prohibit the display of the Confederate flag.

It is sort of like allowing the KKK to march. They have the same right of free speech as all of us. I think the same should be true of a state, even though I consider the sentiment behind the display of the Confederate flag to be treasonous.

I would not live in any state that used such a symbol, but I can't deny that states's people the right to express themselves.

 

[Mackdaddy_74]

I agree with KillerMuffin. If the history of the confederacy wasn't watered down by the slavery issue would every one still be against it? Does anyone even know what started the Confederate war, what really started it?
It is a part of our history, good or bad depending on how you look at it. If you try to remove any part of that history, what will be taken next? Will our GreatGrand children know of the war between the states?

Leave history alone, and tackle other more important issues.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

While I do agree with DCL about the symbol of treason, there is the First Amendment to consider. If we are going to allow the burning of the US flag as a form of political statement, how can we prohibit the display of the Confederate flag.

Refusing to display a Japanese Flag, say, on a U.S. government building is not trampling the First Ammendment. It's a U.S. Government building, not a Japanese building, and the appropriate flag should fly. So why should a governemnt building fly a Confedrate flag (even if it's incorporated into a current state flag)?

No one is saying you can't display the Confederate flag. The issue isn't about that at all. It's about the appropriateness of the State government as a sanctioned body of America's Federal government displaying the flag of a foriegn body.

There is no First Ammendment issue here.

There is also no issue here of "destroying history". History is alive and well in books, movies, museums, schools, private homes, etc. etc. The flagpole outside the state capitol is NOt the province of free speech advertisements or documentary film. It is reserved for a standard aligning itself with the U.S. government. The Confederate States of America was a foreign body bent on the utter destruction of a huge portion of the United States, and it should not be "honored" on standard that serves to honor the thousands of men who died during the Civil War to protect the Country.

Sorry, but you just can't make this about free speech or squleching history because it won't wash. This isn't aobut telling YOU you can't fly a flag of treason, but about allowing the State to do so.

[Edited by Dixon Carter Lee on 01-08-2001 at 10:40 AM]

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

I don't think the issues of secession and slavery as causes of the Civil War can be teased apart as easily as they have been in some of the posts above.

The war didn't take on its grand purpose as a war to end slavery until Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation in 1863, and at least to that point, it was ostensibly always a war of state prerogative vs. federal power. But we shouldn't forget what state prerogative the states were willing to leave the union for: the continued freedom to allow white citizens to own slaves.

Slavery was the sine qua non of the Civil War. It was the election of Lincoln, the first strong abolitionist President that sent a message to the South that slavery wouldn't be tolerated much longer. John Brown's invasion into Virginia to free slaves caused Southern slave-holders to fear that the North was now willing to actively reach into the South to threaten its "peculiar institution."

As a Southerner, I know the symbols of the Confederacy stand for more than just slavery, but slavery darkly colors them all. Without it, there is no secession. And without secession there is no Confederacy. Ergo, slavery defines the Confederacy.

Skibum: your analogy to flag-burning isn't quite sound. The right to burn the flag is a 1st amendment issue, while the right to fly the confederate flag over a state building is one that's determined by the public. I personally have no right to fly anything over a state capitol building. A state flag requires a general approval of the citizens of that state. Simply put, the issue is one of public consensus, not civil liberties.

 

[miles]

Do your homework!

Until 1956 there was no confederate symbol on the GA flag. The GA legislature changed it in 1956 and added the stars and bars to protest the Supreme Court ordered desegregation.

Southern heritage my ass. The flag represents denying a segment of the population their constitutional right to equal protection. Period.

How in the hell can anyone be in favor of that?

 

[Ambrosious]

Sorry, but I don't see it...

How does a piece of fabric, waving in the air deny someone equal protection? I still say this is a feel good piece of legislative fluff, designed to make certain congresspeople look good in the eyes of their constituents. Those same constituents want the flag to stay unchanged. I don't care one way or the other. However, Social Security, Tax Breaks, and such, now that gets me excited.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

I don't think anyone's arguing the flag issue is anything but symbolic. After all, isn't that what flags are - emblematic representations of the values held by the citizens of the state or country for which it stands. In school, we learned that the stars and stripes on the US flag represent the 50 states and 13 founding colonies respectively. The colors of the flag have meaning too: red for courage, white for freedom, blue for loyalty.

It's all symbolic. But what the Confederate flag symbolizes appears to be different to different people. For some, it stands for rugged individualism. One Georgia Congressman stated he thinks it stands for "barefoot girls, boiled peanuts, and hunting". For others, particularly blacks, it stands for the ownership of human beings by other human beings. They're two different competing visions of the same symbol.

I agree with you, Ambrosious. It should be put to a vote.

 

[Ambrosious]

Oliver

Then we can have some RECOUNTS!! Sorry, couldn't help myself.

 

[WriterDom]

Do you really think that the NAACP would accept a statewide vote on the issue?

 

[Cheyenne]

As usual, I agree with Dixon. And Oliver.

Ambrosious: sorry, but your view strikes me as being apathetic in this case- totally unlike you. It doesn't personally concern you, so who cares? Take a stand- either the flag, as is, is right or it is wrong. And if the post above is correct, and the flag was purposely changed to protest desegregation, I don't see how anyone could vote that it is "right."

 

[Ambrosious]

It's not apathy, it is the concern that this issue will take precedence over more pressing needs. I mean, come on, the legislation spends way to much time now on non important issues. Ok, maybe non important, I'm sure that Pigfeet Day is serious business to some, but not me. It doesn't bother me if the flag stays or goes, just LOWER MY TAXES! If you will do that, I'll let you fly my boxers over the capitol!

 

[Juliangel]

It doesn't personally concern you, so who cares?

I have to say I disagree. It is the Georgia flag he was talking about and he and I both live in Georgia and it does concern us both.

Originally posted by Ambrosious
I still say this is a feel good piece of legislative fluff, designed to make certain congresspeople look good in the eyes of their constituents.

The reason this concerns us is, it is our tax dollars being spent and our State Senate and Congress debating this issue instead of others, that many feel would save lives, like the new teen driving laws the state is working on.

Victim assistance laws sit waiting behind it also. While I agree it was changed in 1956 for racist reasons, there are more pressing issues waiting to voted on that effect the entire state more than what flag is flying.

I have friends from various backgrounds and races who agree with Ambrosious that it is a fluff piece.

[Edited by Juliangel on 01-08-2001 at 11:41 AM]

 

[WriterDom]

Personally, I think they should have changed the flag years ago. It's a real pickle for the Governors which are and have been democrats. Zell Miller had to back off the issue, and if Roy Barnes gets it through I think Georgia will have the first republican governor since reconstruction in 2002.

I think the NAACP would be better off focusing on the fatherless families and the drug problems rather than looking backwards 160 years. But I guess it's issues like this that keep them in the news and in business.

 

[Havocman]

The Confederate Flag is the flag of a treasonous force that took over half the country, printed its own money, elected its own President, and threw the country into the bloodiest war of its history.

Well done Dixon...spoken like a true Yankee...Of course the "treasonous force" I assume your referring to were they duly elected representatives of the citizens of those 11 Southern states that voted for seccession...hmmmm, methinks you'd better consult Webster on the difference between treason and democratic self determination...

Okay, so those states thought that since they had freely joined a Union of States when it was benificial to their interests that they had the right to freely leave that same union when it was no longer benificial to their interests. They voted, they decided to leave and form their own loosely aligned political entity. The Unionist said "NO! The sanctity of the Union is absolute", and then proceeded to invade and bring those states back into the fold through military force.

Two sides disagreed upon a point of our constitution, so they fought a war to resolve the dispute, and now it's settled. Treason? Well, I think it was Napoleon that said, "The history books are written by the victors...", but I digress...

(And before anyone compares the morality of the Confederates to that of the Revolitionists, stop, because there are enormous political differences.)

Absolutely correct...the driving force behind the Revolutionaries were a group of wealthy, slave owning, white male, land owners, that wanted to set up their own political system because they felt they weren't being represented well by the system that was currently in place...while the driving force behind the Confederacy was...oh wait a second...nevermind...

That's just me tweaking your nose a bit...


All in all, I have to agree with Ambro...fly whatever flag trips your trigger, just cut my taxes dammit!

I know, I know, I'm pretty much like a street hooker. I don't care who's fucking me, as long as they leave the money on the dresser...*sigh*

Havoc

 

[Sparky Kronkite]

Sticks and stones, will break my bones.....

but historically twisted, fashionably current misconceptions regarding the placement of a few stars on a piece of cloth, as opposed to the truth and what these symbols actually stood for....

Don't - and won't ever - hurt me. But that could just be me. I'm compassionate.

So, if however, above stated - hurts some folks????

I say, "Fuck'em!"

It's a very weak, non-thinking mind that worries about such matters.

 

[Sparky Kronkite]

Ya know, what ever floats yer boat......

But getting emotional over a piece of cloth (any flag or symbol such) is to me kind of weird. I could care less is somebody burns the US flag for instance - it's just a fucking flag. I know where my line in the sand is - and it's in a lot more logical, rational place than anybody's who draws it at the importance of pure symbolism.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

WriterDom: I agree completely with your assessement of the NAACP in this. And to answer your earlier question, I don't think the NAACP would want a referendum on the issue, because they'd risk the people of Georgia deciding to keep the flag. And who would listen to their complaints then. I think they'll continue to try to chip away at its support, ala the South Carolina situation.

Havocman: Outstanding post! I've missed seeing you around these parts. And I agree with you.

The Civil War is a beautiful example of how the outcome of historical events color our perceptions of their meanings. We should look at history within its context, as well as its outcome to piece together what it means.

As wrong as I believe the South was in its defense of the institution of slavery, the Southern states' decision to secede was based on the idea that they had entered into the Constitution of the United States in 1791 as sovereign powers.

They believed that they had willingly ratified the Constitution, entering into the new United States government, but having retained their sovereignty and the right to abrogate that contract whenever they saw fit (and subsequently join together under a new constitution if desired).

The victors do indeed write history. Today the Civil War is seen as a rebellion (or as DCL says, "treason"), but as you rightly point out, rebellions aren't conducted by duly-elected representatives of the people, but rather by those without power who desire it for themselves. A more accurate description of the nature of the Civil War would be "a Constitutional crisis settled with weapons". When it was over the North had won, justifying its position that states may not secede. And here we stand today.

Even the question of the morality of slavery can been seen in this light. What would we think of it today had the South won and slavery had continued? I think it eventually would have died there too, killed by the same forces which brought its demise in the north, but who knows?

You're also right that the Civil War and the Revolution were fought by similar men and for similar reasons. But with this addition: the Civil War was fought over the issue of the right of people to own other people.

And that was wrong then as it is today.


[Edited by Oliver Clozoff on 01-08-2001 at 01:10 PM]