Concealed Weapon Laws

[SeXy ReDHeD]

I heard on the news here (in NM) last night that the state's considering making it legal to carry a concealed weapon, specifically a handgun.

Being a (liberal) student of penologyy/criminology, I came to the conclusion that this will not protect people from violence, but actually cause more violence... especially "heat of the moment" violence, like road rage and lovers quarrel crimes. This seems to me the logical conclusion.

Also, it seems that it would make the jobs of police officers a lot harder and a great deal more dangerous, especially when it's illegal here to for an officer to use ANY deadly force (i.e. a gun) unless the suspect is very, very obviously trying to hurt them...

Anyway... it's already legal to carry an unconcealed weapon, so why would one need to carry a concealed one?

Do any of you guys out there carry weapons, concealed or unconcealed? What for? Do they make you feel safer? Do you carry it for protection? Protection from who?? Cops? Would-be criminals??? Huh, huh, huh??

 

[Xander]

Nope, Dont carry concealed gun. Or any weapon for that matter.
Where I come from, we dont use guns. If anybody was with the bad growd. Things where taken care of using Blade weapons, and Club weapons.
And a sword is pretty damn hard to conceal.

 

[Mustang Sally]

Sounds like a horrible idea to me. What possible benefits could there be? Why would the authorities even consider allowing people to carry concealed handguns? This is so far far from logical to me that it seems unreal.

 

[fgarvb1]

some people worry to much.!!

What have you got against people carring hidden guns.?
Crooks will always have them because if they do not buy them from anywhere that can be traced.

If you think it's easy to get a concealed handgun license
down here in the state of Texas you are bad wrong.
it's easy to have it taken away also.
I will tell you what; I will go and get some page infro. and post it here. Then you can really raise some hell.

And yes i do.

try...
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/chlsindex.htm

[Edited by fgarvb1 on 02-12-2001 at 08:01 PM]

 

[TN_Vixen]

4 yrs ago a concealed weapons law was passed

in my state. Me, being the liberal that I am went ballistic. Concealed weapons? In Tennessee? In redneck-hick-countryass-beatyourmomma-territory? Jeeze... what a fuck up!

Seriously. Consider this.

A redneck motherfucker enters a bar pissed off b/c he thinks his chick is cheatin' on his ass. He's carrying a concealed weapon in his faded blue jeans jacket.... has a few beers, sees "his woman" dancin' with another loser-redneck jackass motherfucker and decides that's just too much for him to handle... so what? He pulls out his 38 special--- LEGALLY concealed within his jacket and blows not only his old lady away, but everyone else within a 5 ft. radius. I say....

HELL that's fucking progress for the gun association. Every American has a right to not only bear arms but conceal them in order to keep the fact that they are dumb ass backwater hillbillies that can think of no other resolution but to blow a person away in the heat of the moment.

Hail to the NRA. Hail Hail HAIL.

 

[fgarvb1]

Find out what you talking about first.!

Then make up stories. I will say this Texas has the strictest concealed handgun laws in the usa. Texas wil be the model for the coming Federal concealed hand gun law.
So you might as well get over it.

But i learned a long time ago not to get into arguements
with people who have already made up their minds based on emotion and following little red wagons while wearing blinders and earplugs.

So count me out on this.

 

[Mustang Sally]

Ok, fgarvb1, you say a concealed weapons license is hard to get in Texas. What criteria must you meet to get one? What acceptable reason could there be for needing one? Please explain how this is a good thing.

 

[TN_Vixen]

Re: Find out what you talking about first.!

Then make up stories. I will say this Texas has the strictest concealed handgun laws in the usa. Texas wil be the model for the coming Federal concealed hand gun law.
So you might as well get over it.

But i learned a long time ago not to get into arguements
with people who have already made up their minds based on emotion and following little red wagons while wearing blinders and earplugs.

So count me out on this.

Ok, fine. You think I'm making up stories? You seriously think I have nothing better to do with my time than to conjure up these fantastic scenerios and preach? c'mon...

I'm NO Baptist here. I'm not even a left wing liberal maniac.. I'm just being realistic about human nature. Do you honestly think that the Founders of the country believed in concealed weaponry? Do you think that there's any REAL purpose for this law? Hell FUCKING no. This is absurdity. It is a license for those jackasses who believe that carrying weapons will prevent crime.

Where has that ever been proven to me? You show me. You show me specific instances, proven statistics that not only owning handguns deters crime but owning any kind of weapons that you can conceal deters crime. It is NONEXISTANT.

I'm not living in a bubble here, sweetheart.

 

[KillerMuffin]

They have concealed weapons laws in Alaska. Crime rate wasn't affected when they were put in. Why should concealed weapons laws change the way things are done now? Instead of carrying them in the open like they already do, they carry them hideen. You honestly think people drive around unarmed? Lover's quarrels usually happen in someone's bedroom where the average gunowner keeps his or her handgun. Concealed weapons laws won't affect it. Road rage? Oh please, Red. Look at Phoenix, AZ which is bigger and more violent than Albaquerue ever thought of being, and the passing of the concealed weapons has had no affect on road rage in Phoenix any more than not having weapons has affected road rage elsewhere. You can't legislate responsibility, but you can make sure people are safer. I think, however, that like Alaska, if you're going to have a permit for it, you have to prove you're trained in the use and safe handling of the weapon.

Protect and serve, that's their job. There is only so many cops to go around and they're never there when you need them. Sam Colt said, "Whatever the size, I will equalize." Having faced an armed assailant, I have to agree with the man. I will protect my home and family because no one else will do it. I am not a victim, I will not behave like a victim, nor will I willing become a part of a society that promotes the idea of victimization via the vulnerablization of it's citizens without a fight. Violent crime happens no matter what. It has nothing to do with weapons and everything to do with bad behavior. You can't legislate responsibility, it's impossible.

Be a victim all ya'll want. Just don't expect me to agree with you cause someone was irresponsible. Might as well deny everyone the right to own a car because of drunk drivers murder people.

You can't legislate reponsibility. Trying to do so only denies rights and freedom to those who are innocent of wrongdoing.

Anyway, aside from the diatribe. The purpose of having a concealed weapons permit is the ability to stick your gun in your glove box. In some states, if you a transporting a weapon it has to be out in the open. Don't know bout you, but if I'm carrying a pistol from point a to point b and my kid is in the car, I want it in the glove box or under the seat. I have a truck, no trunk. Shockingly enough, a survey done in Alaska showed that most people with the permits generally didn't carry the gun all the time. No point in it. However, if I'm going to go from my house on a walk in woodsy alaska where the bears, moose, and wolves roam, I want to carry my weapon concealed. Idiots think because you carry a weapon you're a drug dealer or you're going to go on a rampage and kill someone.

For all ya'll's information, I am a redneck hick. I have a short temper. I have no couth. I like to fight like the rest of my family. I have a weapon. I haven't shot anyone in 29 years. Oh gawd. Muff is a danger to society. I'm an unbalanced hick that's going to go the bar and blow everyone away. I'm going to go to a convenience store and shoot everyone cause the line isn't moving fast enough. No wait, I may not do that, but someone else might. Punish me for their crime. Is that stupid or what?

This isn't about guns to me. I rarely even see mine, they're locked in a vault in another county (think StudMuffin). This is about my rights being infringed. My weapons are registered, locked up, and safe. Because the fuckhead down the street goes and shoots his old lady, better go and collect everyone's firearms.

You call me a redneck, violent, supporter of crime. I call you dictatorial, tyrannical, socialistic, communists.

You can't legislate responsibility.

Flame away, I'm not reading this thread again, cause, quite frankly, I don't give two fucks what all ya'll think. Anymore than you care about my opinion. Anyway, I have a gun. Are you afraid? No, didn't think you were. Why not, I'm a criminal, right?

 

[Bs]

ThE rEdHeAd SaId:


Being a (liberal) student of penologyy/criminology, I came to the conclusion that this will not protect people from violence, but actually cause more violence... especially "heat of the moment" violence, like road rage and lovers quarrel crimes. This seems to me the logical conclusion.


I feel like a logical person, but not being a (liberal) student, of course I'll see it differently. You naturally assume that someone whom would not normally have gun will have a concealed one. And, therfor be more apt to use it in the "heat of the moment". very subjective?

Also, it seems that it would make the jobs of police officers a lot harder and a great deal more dangerous, especially when it's illegal here to for an officer to use ANY deadly force (i.e. a gun) unless the suspect is very, very obviously trying to hurt them...

I have known several law enforcement officers thru the years and if I'm not wrong, do they not treat every person/suspect as tho they are armed and dangerous? If they don't then their relatives have somthing to worry about.

Anyway... it's already legal to carry an unconcealed weapon, so why would one need to carry a concealed one?


What is a concealed weapon? Could it be a shotgun in an old flannel sock wrapper to keep it from rusting? Or a nice high power rifle w/scope in a hard shell case to protect it from unnessary bumps? But, the handguns worn at the hip is not always protected from the elements. Nor is it very fashionable in all public places.


Do any of you guys out there carry weapons, concealed or unconcealed? What for? Do they make you feel safer? Do you carry it for protection? Protection from who?? Cops? Would-be criminals??? Huh, huh, huh??

Yes, by all means I feel safer with than without. And if by chance some innocent bystander saved your sorry ass from some criminal act you would proably thank them. I do carry large sums a cash on me. My home has been broken into numerous times. But, don't always carry gun on me or with me but I've got them and can and will use them if needed.

 

[Xander]

I dont know. It's all the same to me at this point. Fuckers who wanna off somebody. Is going to find a way to off them, gun or not.
Also in the rage of the moment. And I guess If anyone wnats an easy way to off someone or defend themselves with almost guarantied death as an outcome of it.
Well guns is it.

 

[TN_Vixen]

You honestly think people drive around unarmed? Lover's quarrels usually happen in someone's bedroom where the average gunowner keeps his or her handgun. Concealed weapons laws won't affect it.

No, KM, I'm not so stupid as to think that people drive around unarmed but up to the point of having the concealed weapons law, doing so was illegal.


You can't legislate responsibility..."

Noone is trying to legislate responsibility here. All I'm saying as far as concealed weaponry is concerned is that there's no NEED for it whatsoever and nothing you can say will convince me that there is.

No point in it. However, if I'm going to go from my house on a walk in woodsy alaska where the bears, moose, and wolves roam, I want to carry my weapon concealed.

Y'know, KM, I don't blame you. Walking around in a wooded area and coming upon a bear, moose or wolf, I wouldn't want them to realize I'm holding a gun either. Good Goddamn thing I have the concealed weaponry law on my side because heaven forbid one of these animals sees that I'm carrying a weapon to blow their ass from kingdom come. If they actually SEE the weapon, they'd call their lawyer, eh? hehe




Idiots think because you carry a weapon you're a drug dealer or you're going to go on a rampage and kill someone.

For all ya'll's information, I am a redneck hick. I have a short temper. I have no couth. I like to fight like the rest of my family. I have a weapon. I haven't shot anyone in 29 years. Oh gawd. Muff is a danger to society. I'm an unbalanced hick that's going to go the bar and blow everyone away. I'm going to go to a convenience store and shoot everyone cause the line isn't moving fast enough. No wait, I may not do that, but someone else might. Punish me for their crime. Is that stupid or what?

This may be true for you and may be true for a lot of Americans but hey.. this rationalization specifically has nothing at all to do with CONCEALED weapons. You have a right as an American to bear arms. You have a right to shoot whatever the fuck you want to if it infringes upon your property.. but HEY.. let's talk about concealing a weapon and what the impact of passing laws to that nature has an effect upon. Not everyone is as dilligent as you are with your weapons. Not everyone who has a gun will treat it with such respect. The issue is that most damage done with guns is done by those who are irresponsible! How to we manage this irresponsibility? By passing concealed weapons laws? Oh fuck yeah, that'll do it. *rolling eyes* C'mon KM, I'm trying to pose some logic here, not fight against your rights.

 

[KillerMuffin]

I lied.

C'mon TN. Walking down the sidewalk with a .357 magnum strapped to my hip? I have to GET to the woods first. I'm epileptic, can't drive sugar. Someone will see me wakling with the gun and call the police.

Logically, there is no reason to possess a weapon in our utopian society. Right? Logically, there is no reason for me to worry about rapists, stalkers, etc. in our utopian society. Right?

Logically. I have a gun. I hypothetically drive down the street with it legally. That means it's in plain view. I have to leave it in the car while I go pay for gasoline. Would you leave you purse in plain view in your car? Logically, I would conceal the weapon, rather than leave it where it can be seen and then stolen.

Logically. I am a law abiding citizen. I have no criminal record. I have no past history of psychological problems. I am over 25 years of age. I have logged more than 8 hours with a school specializing in the education of handgun use, safety, and responsibility. I am certified by the state certified instructor as educated in the use of the specifc handgun. Why shouldn't I be permitted to carry it, concealed or unconcealed if I want to?

Anyway, you can't convince me that concealed weapons are bad. Agree to disagree. I don't think you're stupid any more than you think I'm stupid. I just think you're blind, just like you think I am.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Not everyone is as dilligent as you are with your weapons. Not everyone who has a gun will treat it with such respect. The issue is that most damage done with guns is done by those who are irresponsible! How to we manage this irresponsibility? By passing concealed weapons laws? Oh fuck yeah, that'll do it. *rolling eyes* C'mon KM, I'm trying to pose some logic here, not fight against your rights.

Let's run some logic here sweets, you're fond of it.

Drunk drivers kill more people than anything else does, including guns, heart attacks, natural disaster, abortions, etc. The issue is that most damage done with automobiles is done by those who are irresponsible! How do we manage this irresponsibility? By allowing anyone who can pass an easy test own a car?

Cell phone owners who use cell phones while driving are the number one largest causes of accidents in the state of California according the US Insurance whatchacallit. The issue is that most damage done with cell phones is done by those who are irresponsible! How do we manage this irresponsibility? By not passing laws that disallow the use of cell phones while driving?

In most areas neither cars nor cell phones are necessary anymore than guns are. The public transit system in the state of California alone is enough that no one needs to have a car. Cellular phones aren't necessary to do anything but talk to people when you should be doing other things. Try to restrict the use of either implement. The only difference is that a weapon is designed for the dual purpose of deterrence and causing harm.

You can't legislate responsibility. When you try you step on the rights of innocent people. Yes, TN, you are against my constitutional right and responsibility as a member of the militia of the United States of America to keep and bear arms. Concealed or not.

 

[SeXy ReDHeD]

Where do rights end and responsibilities begin?

Okay, I'm not trying to take away your guns here. You have a right to own a gun, you have a right to carry a gun. But if you're going to carry a gun, I don't see why you have to hide it. If you're going to carry a gun, BE PROUD! Carry your gun like a MAN! Or in Muff's case, like a WOMAN!

Come on people, tell me. Really. Is there any good, logical reason (and no, Bs, fashion is NOT a good reason) to have a concealed weapon, unless you're planning to shoot up a school or a post office or a shopping mall? I mean, I'm realistic enough to realize that people who want to commit crimes and need guns will obtain and conceal them, but why make it easier than it is?

Specifically,

Muff

1) Phoenix is more crime-ridden than Albuquerque ever even thought of being? Come on, I have loads and loads of statistics here that say you're probably wrong. I don't really know compared to Phoenix, but Albuquerque has more violent crime per capita than LA (as of 1995).

2) You won't be a victim. Fine, don't be a victim. Does carrying a concealed weapon make you any LESS of a victim? If someone enters your house, your property at night then fine--no one's arguing your right to protect yourself. What does that have to do with carrying a concealed weapon in public?

3) You are right, only idiots think everyone who carries a gun is a drug dealer. I don't think that. I think that normal, sane people carry guns, but that even normal, sane people get mad sometimes--mad enough to not think about their actions before they actually commit them. How do you think most murders occur? Believe it or not, most are not premeditated, serial killer things. Most are spur-of-the-moment killings that more than likely wouldn't have happened had the opportunity not presented itself at that time.

4) I'm sorry if you feel that you're being punished for someone else's crime. But you know what? You live in a society, a community and some laws are for the good of the whole community, not just you to keep people safe. Perhaps the few ruined it for the many, but that's the reality of the majority-rules society that we live in.


Bs

Ummm... I can't quite yet figure out what you were trying to say with that first response, so I'll just move on to the second:

1) Apparently you didn't understand what I was saying... I wasn't saying that police officers don't approach every single suspect with extreme caution, I'm saying that they are not allowed to use deadly force (i.e. shoot them, protect themselves as you all can) unless the suspect is actively trying to harm them.

2) "What is a concealed weapon? Could it be a shotgun in an old flannel sock wrapper to keep it from rusting? Or a nice high power rifle w/scope in a hard shell case to protect it from unnessary bumps? But, the handguns worn at the hip is not always protected from the elements. Nor is it very fashionable in all public places."

I won't even justify that with an answer.

3) if by chance some innocent bystander saved your sorry ass from some criminal act you would proably thank them."

First of all, I don't see the need for you to call me "sorry". Whatever. I thought I asked a valid question, one that was completely open for intelligent discussion. Apparently not.

Second of all, this probably won't happen. Very few "innocent bystanders", aside from military or law enforcement, when faced with a situation like that (stressful) would be able to react with the speed and clarity necessary to shoot and actually hit the target. And even if this situation did occur, I'm my "sorry ass" probably would be grateful. But that's not the point... I didn't say we should outlaw all guns. I merely asked about concealed weapons. If you can carry a concealed one, why you can't you carry an unconcealed one?


TN_Vixen

You go girl!



Again I ask, where do our rights as Americans end and our responsibilities begin? You say you're only responsible to yourself, and that carrying a concealed weapon is part of your responsibility to yourself, well I say that's real BS. You have a greater responsibility to your community--you have the responsibility to make it a SAFE community, so that others' rights to safety in that community aren't violated. And they have that same responsibility to you. I'm not preaching here or imagining a Utopia where everything really is like this--I know better--BUT things will never change if you don't change.

Yeah, yeah, I can just hear it now, I'm a naive, optimistic college student. But so what? Change is never wrought by doing nothing.

 

[TN_Vixen]

The whole concept of "Rights" equate

some sense of responsibility. Human Rights are in essence the responsibility of other human beings to treat fellow humans with respect and treat them with a humane sense of equality. How DO we get past legislating responsibility?

We're legislating responsibility, KM, when we say that drivers cannot drive drunk. We're legislating responsibility when we outlaw drug use, we're legislating responsibility when we say practice SAFE SEX and don't use abortion as a method of birth control. We cannot get beyond legislating responsibility. It's the same as saying that laws shouldn't regulate morality. Sure that's great in theory and I honestly agree with it... but who are we fooling? We legislate morality all the damn time in this great country of ours.

So, what I'm saying is... if we can put barriers on drinking.. which we have. And since you used that as your example, you can drink at a specific age.. you can own a gun at a specific age. Neither instance do I disagree. You canNOT drive while drinking, and therefore logic has it that you canNOT do certain things with a gun. One being carrying it in a concealed manner.

You're right. We agree to disagree b/c I don't think you're stupid, nor do I think you are a redneck who only wants to abuse a right granted by our founders. I simply think that there's a limit to what we should allow to the masses. Should we legalize drug use simply b/c those who will get it and sell it will anyway? So, the logic is that those who will buy guns and conceal them will anyway.. right?

Where is the line here? Where do we draw the line, KM? I'm not trying to restrict law-abiding faithful dilligent responsible citizens from carrying guns... I'm just saying there's been no proof at all that indicates those guns should be carried in a concealed manner.

.

Not everyone is as dilligent as you are with your weapons. Not everyone who has a gun will treat it with such respect. The issue is that most damage done with guns is done by those who are irresponsible! How to we manage this irresponsibility? By passing concealed weapons laws? Oh fuck yeah, that'll do it. *rolling eyes* C'mon KM, I'm trying to pose some logic here, not fight against your rights.

Let's run some logic here sweets, you're fond of it.

Drunk drivers kill more people than anything else does, including guns, heart attacks, natural disaster, abortions, etc. The issue is that most damage done with automobiles is done by those who are irresponsible! How do we manage this irresponsibility? By allowing anyone who can pass an easy test own a car?

Cell phone owners who use cell phones while driving are the number one largest causes of accidents in the state of California according the US Insurance whatchacallit. The issue is that most damage done with cell phones is done by those who are irresponsible! How do we manage this irresponsibility? By not passing laws that disallow the use of cell phones while driving?

In most areas neither cars nor cell phones are necessary anymore than guns are. The public transit system in the state of California alone is enough that no one needs to have a car. Cellular phones aren't necessary to do anything but talk to people when you should be doing other things. Try to restrict the use of either implement. The only difference is that a weapon is designed for the dual purpose of deterrence and causing harm.

You can't legislate responsibility. When you try you step on the rights of innocent people. Yes, TN, you are against my constitutional right and responsibility as a member of the militia of the United States of America to keep and bear arms. Concealed or not.

 

[Unclebill]

Originally posted by SeXy ReDHeD
Being a (liberal) student of penologyy/criminology, I came to the conclusion that this will not protect people from violence, but actually cause more violence... especially "heat of the moment" violence, like road rage and lovers quarrel crimes. This seems to me the logical conclusion.

If you're willing to spend a little time and educate yourself, try reading More Guns Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws by John R. Lott, Jr.

For the ultimate in gun control and it's beneficial effects, try this link: http://www.geocities.com/john_galt76/AussieGunCon.html

For the student(s) of penology/criminology (or other endeavors), what was the purpose and intent of the founders of America as relates to the second amendment? Hint: Hunting, protection from wild animals, self defense against criminals, or ...

Originally posted by TN_Vixen
This is absurdity. It is a license for those jackasses who believe that carrying weapons will prevent crime.

And don't ever let the fact that this is true and amply documented sway your beliefs one little bit.

[Edited by Unclebill on 04-26-2001 at 03:32 PM]

 

[Siren]

Well Muffkill.....

 

[Mustang Sally]

The really cool thing about statistics is that they can be manipulated to suit any purpose under the sun. If you approach something with a biased attitude, you will undoubtably find some statistics to support your position. I took a look at that website, Unclebill, and remain unmoved.

 

[Weird Harold]

Re: Where do rights end and responsibilities begin?

Come on people, tell me. Really. Is there any good, logical reason (and no, Bs, fashion is NOT a good reason) to have a concealed weapon, unless you're planning to shoot up a school or a post office or a shopping mall? I mean, I'm realistic enough to realize that people who want to commit crimes and need guns will obtain and conceal them, but why make it easier than it is?

I would prefer to conceal my pistol when carrying it for a variety of logical reasons.

1: If it's concealed, it doesn't make people nervous that I'm armed.

2: If it's concealed, I don't have to worry about some armed nut wanting to play "quick draw" with me just because because I have a western style holster.

3: If my gun isn't on my person, It's not laying out for some criminal to acquire illegaly by smashing the window of my car.

4: A shoulder holster is more comfortable and less likely to snag or hang up on seatbelts or chair arms.

5: A gun in a shoulder holster is more acessible when seated than in my western style holster on my hip.

I have no objection to wearing my gun openly most of the time, but for the peace of mind of those around me there are times when I wish I was licensed to carry it concealed.

And no, I do not carry my gun all the time. I carry it when I go out into the desert where the rattlesnakes dwell, and when I go hunting as a backup for my rifle. It is in traveling to those places where it makes no real difference whether it's concealed or not that I have problems with the reactions of nervous nellies to the fact that I can't legally put my gun out of their sight.

 

[riff]

You could have subtitled this thread "The Dark Side of America."

I was commenting to a friend that the new legislative rage for concealed weapons is a sad statement to the fact that we are a violent nation. It's really very sad when you think about it. What is even sadder is that the "non-violent" types are being won over by the violent ones.

In America, we believe in violence. We believe that violence solves problems. This truth rings out everywhere- in our popular culture and in our national culture. Our films and games glorify violence. Our laws glorify violence (ie- Capital Punishment as a "moral" solution- and now this concealed weapons thing).

Legislatively, politically, I put concealed weapons laws in the same category as capital punishment- it's all a game of political football. It's not about your "right" to carry a concealed weapon or whatever, just as the death penalty is not about justice or protecting the public. It's about politics and political positioning.

If you oppose concealed weapons laws (or capital punishment) you are branded as soft on crime, and no politician wants to look soft on crime. If you support these laws, then you have the benefit of pointing to the record and looking like you are tough on crime.

Better than carrying a gun or killing people in cages, the best antidotes to violent crime are education and a good economy. Being raised by people who don't believe violence is a way to solve problems helps too.

 

[WriterDom]

From the University of Chicago study

VI. Conclusion


Allowing citizens without criminal records or histories of significant mental illness to carry concealed handguns deters violent crimes and appears to produce an extremely small and statistically insignificant change in accidental deaths. If the rest country had adopted right-to-carry concealed handgun provisions in 1992, at least 1,570 murders and over 4,177 rapes would have been avoided. On the other hand, consistent with the notion that criminals respond to incentives, county level data provides evidence that concealed handgun laws are associated with increases in property crimes involving stealth and where the probability of contact between the criminal and the victim are minimal. The largest population counties where the deterrence effect on violent crimes is the greatest is also where the substitution effect into these property crimes is the highest. The estimated annual gain in 1992 from allowing concealed handguns was over $6.21 billion.

http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/guns/gunslott.html

 

[Andra_Jenny]

I've carried guns all my life. Where we live, they are a part of life. I understand why liberals and urbanites fear them, but I find the crimes of passion argument specious to this topic. I do not think concealing or not concealing in the heat of passion has the least little bit to do with anything.

Anecdotally, when living in the city, carrying a gun in my briefcase has stopped one attempt at robbery and two attempts at intimidation by those elements of our society who operate under less than gentile rules of civil behavior.

I like to use the Christian parable of turning the other cheek and Dr. Daeshik Kim's argument. If I turn the other cheek and I cannot defend myself, then I have merely done the only thing I can do. If I can defend myself and turn the other cheek, then I have indeed performed a moral act.

As long as there is a criminal element to humanity, I would choose to preserve my humanity and dignity against that element with every weapon at my disposal.

 

[riff]

Speak for yourself. I own several shotguns. Never saw the need for a pistol- maybe because my old man wasn't into them. So, no, I am not afraid of the weapons (only some of the people who have them).

I am liberal and I don't want to take your guns away, whether they are rifles, shotguns, or handguns.

Why conceal the handgun? If it is to deter crime, isn't the criminal more likely to see your gun and say "He's armed, better not fuck with him, better find someone else...?" (Is this common sense or am I missing something- I'm not a criminal... maybe the sight of a weapon on you makes you more attractive to crime...). If I was going to use a handgun to deter crime, I'd carry it in my fucking hand so you could see me coming! (hehehe)

Whatever- the main point that I want to make is that America is a violent nation. I don't think taking away guns will solve that, but I don't think arming everyone or even permitting some of them to carry concealed weapons will change that.

 

[Andra_Jenny]

Do you feel America is more violent than any other place?
Are we a violent species in general?

I think the point [to concealing] is, much like the mine game on the computer, the element of doubt, and guessing. For each victim, the criminal must go through the process of considering, hey, that person may be armed.

People do not wish to be victimized and will clutch at almost any straw to save themselves. Some on the right will want to arm and empower themselves. Some on the left will want to trade freedom for security. The left does not want the right armed and the right does not want to surrender freedom.

What to do, what to do.