Computer Science: Still a Boys' Club?

[Dillinger]

"Few women are involved in the design and creation of new technology..." argue authors Jane Margolis and Allan Fisher in their new book, Unlocking the Clubhouse: Women in Computing (MIT Press, Cambridge, MA). To close the gender gap, Margolis recommends changing the way computer science is taught.

I'm interested in what you all feel about this. How real you think the problem is. How you think it can be alleviated. You need not restrict your discussion to the field of Computer Science. Having two daughters I think about these kind of things quite a bit. My oldest says she wants to be a programmer. GOOD FOR HER! She's young, may yet change her mind, I still wonder what her opportunities will be...

More:

Q: Why does it matter if women are not involved in the design of new technology:

Margolis: Computers are changing the way we live, and there needs to be a wide range of voices at any design table. Airbags, for example, were desgined by a predominately male team that used the male body as the norm. As a result, airbags can be deadly to women and children. We need to broaden the perspectives brought to design teams.

(Damn... I like the way this woman thinks!!!)

Q: Why do many female computer science students drop the major?

Margolis: The women we've interviewed wanted computing to be tied to other social issues. They were interested in computing with a purpose - in contrast to hacking for hacking's sake. Unfortunately, a lot of the education programs miss this interdisciplinary interest.

(Very interesting. What we want out of our computing experiences can be very diverse indeed... and what someone wants to bring into the design and programming environment to address this diversity is apparantly not often accepted - hence a dissatisfaction develops and some people then opt to pursue a different field...)

Q: What needs to change in order to "unlock the male clubhouse" for women?

Margolis: Computer science should be presented as a field that is interdisciplinary, that has a social purpose. If computer science is framed that way it will attract more girls. By changing its computer science courses and its admissions approach, Carnegie Mellon increased the percentage of women entering the School of Computer Science from 7 percent in 1995 to 42 percent in 2000.

(I better put more money into my children's education funds!!! *smile*)

BTW - if you're in the Information Technology field, and especially if you're a woman, and you're not already familiar with Women In Technology International (WITI) - you should be. http://www.witi.com/

 

[BlkPnthr]

*Perk* Computers?

Oh you bastard Dill Got my attention with the computer thing *EG*

 

[MidnightAngel]

Interesting.

When I was in college {A Loooonng time ago }, I minored in Computer Science. Was very good at it, if I do say so myself. However, what we were taught was not as "application-specific" as what is being taught today. I learned to program in several languages. However, at that time, the emphasis was more on the rules/codes of the language itself and far less on what you were going to use it for.

To be quite honest, I really don't understand the basis of the argument. If you are taught computer science, then WHAT you choose to do with your knowledge is completely up to you. It seems to me that, with this knowledge, you can use it for whatever application you wish.

Or am I missing the point?

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

[BI'm interested in what you all feel about this. How real you think the problem is.

[/b]As a software engineer I know the is real; there are very few women in Comp-sci/SW-Eng, and very few of those are in any senior positions. I have noticed that in the past ten years it has gotten a slowly better; whereas it used to be extremely rare to see a woman in tech field or even online, women are now just a minority, not an exception to the rule.

How you think it can be alleviated.

The usual; encouragement and education. Encouraging females to enter these fields, education of males and females that females can and do contribute to tech. Maybe some other methodologies such as separate tech classes (such as math) for females and males where it has been found that often the competition between males and females has resulted in females getting lower scores than they would accomplish by themselves (I started a thread months and months ago on why this was so).

You need not restrict your discussion to the field of Computer Science. Having two daughters I think about these kind of things quite a bit. My oldest says she wants to be a programmer. GOOD FOR HER! She's young, may yet change her mind, I still wonder what her opportunities will be...

While my daughter was growing up, there were a lot of people, many or even most of them females, who would tell her that she couldn't do this or that because she was female. From telling her that she should be a nurse instead of a doctor to telling her she couldn't be good at tech, they planted all kinds of notions in her head - discouraging her from pursuing her dreams.

I would say that parents should avoid such ideas and should instill strong resistance to such notions entering their heads. Be truthful - let them know that it may be more difficult because they will encounter such ideas and resistance, but encourage them to try all the harder nonetheless.

 

[tmuyo]

well, here at the university of california, davis we have plenty of girls in the com sci engineering division. and they're actually really cute, the ones i know at least.

 

[KillerMuffin]

*checks* Yep, boobage is still there. *checks a little deeper* Nope, no wonder-weinie present.

I am a computer science major.

 

[Azwed]

At tech there is a definite shortage of women in the Engineering/CS majors.

I mean all engineering not just Computer or software engineering.

Some of the majors tend to have a few more women then others though. Industrial engineering seems to have more women then many of the other engineering disciplines. Industrial engineering is also considered one of the easier engineering fields as well. Mining engineering is also considered very easy yet has almost no women at all.

There is one factor that many people, including myself, think keeps the number of women at tech in engineering down. There is one particular Proff here that goes out of his way to fail women engineers. Before you can be admited to a particular engineering field you have to pass both sections of engineering fundamentals. This proff is one of about five that teach these classes. He starts out from the beginning of the class trying to discourage women not to be in engineering.

He will make insulting remarks in lecture.

Women that go to him for help won't get help but instead a lecture telling them why they don't belong in engineering.

In order to pass these EF classes you have to have a C- or better.
Anything below that and you have to retake the class. Any women that stay in his class are given C-'s. He will not give them a higher grade.

He does everything in his power to make women drop his class. Some do and either sign up for a different EF class or leave engineering all together.

His wife teaches math and does the same thing to any women engineering or CS students.

This Proff is currently the subject of several lawsuits. He has tenure and so it is very difficult to fire him but hopefuly he will either be fired or retire after he losses the lawsuits.

I had him sub a couple of classes for me when I was in engineering. One was one of the basic fundamentals class and another was a C++ class. He is a complete moron. How he managed to get his doctorate and tenure is beyond me. He can't or won't teach for the most part and being a guy in his class is not much easier then being a woman.

 

[Weird Harold]

This may sound sexist, but...

I would say that parents should avoid such ideas and should instill strong resistance to such notions entering their heads. Be truthful - let them know that it may be more difficult because they will encounter such ideas and resistance, but encourage them to try all the harder nonetheless.

First, I totally agree that daughters should be encouragd to have the highest aspirations possible, and ignore anyone who tells them they can't do whatever they want because, "Girls don't do that kind of thing."

However, there is a strong element of right brain/left brain diffrentiation in programming ability. Almost anyone can learn programming and computer science, but those who naturally think logically do better than those who think intuitively. (I don't remember which side of the brain controls which, but it seems to be hardwired from what I've read on the subject.)

The right brain/left brain factor doesn't necessarily mean that women are less proficient in logical thinking or that all men are more proficient -- however, there does seem to be a gender specific tendency for one or the other. IF that's true, then the pool of women who have the natural talent for programming and Computer Science is smaller than it is for males.

I do think that, given the importance of computers in our lives, that everyone who has the ability to think logically should be encouraged to apply that ability to learn Computer Science, Software Engineering, or any other computer related field that may emerge in the future.

 

[riff]

Unfortunately most of my students are males. I am forever recruiting female students. There are may who would do it, but here in the land of the truck-driving catish-eaters, girls are suppose to become:

compliant and accomodating hostesses for his sunday BBQs
garden club and bridge club types
nurses and doctors
lawyers
methamphetime addicts
abused and emotionally scarred methamphetine addicts
titty dancers
waitresses
public relations
whores
thunderhicks
pharmecudical sales executives
freaks
church bitch

etc... etc....

god forbid, they study IT.

It sucks pretty much.

The women in the industry I know are just as capable as any man.

 

[seXieleXie]

last semester i took the intro CS course at my school. there were more males than females but there were still a fair number of females. however, this semester i'm taking a 200 level CS course and i am the only female. the guys sometimes refer to me as "she" and try to assign me to mential tasks as opposed to the heavily technical ones. i won't stand for that though. it's a matter of reprogramming (teehee) the minds of men who aren't used to women in the discipline.

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

Re: This may sound sexist, but...

However, there is a strong element of right brain/left brain diffrentiation in programming ability.

Well, everyone at Lit. knows me well enough to know that I don't pull puches with regards to the way things are, including the differences between men and women. There may be enough differences between the way male and female minds think to make it difficult for some percentage of females to enter certain traditionally male fields such as engineering, but that is their problem and if they can do the work while overcoming any hinderance then more power to them.

Despite the fact that there are a lot of unemployed software engineers right now (including me), I see SW engineering an evergrowing field in the future - the present "blip" notwithstanding. We need all the bright minds we can get, and since there are many different ways of arriving at s/w engineering solutions, the more varied their viewpoint the better.

The same goes for a lot of other tech fields. Everyone always talks about computers being the "hi-tech" fields, but actually the really exciting stuff is going on in chemistry, biology, etc. - nanotechnology and the engineering of new materials will probably increase our standard of living a lot more than software ever will. Software is just a tool - a fancy and very creative tool, but just a tool.

Unfortunately, there are still people as Azwed described - I knew one prof in college who felt women shouldn't be in electronics engineering, but he was a lot more circumspect about voicing his opinions than Azwed's example. I am surprised that such a prof is still teaching at all. I would boycott his classes if at all possible.

 

[J.B.]

Here I go again....

OK. I have no clue where to start...

1st of all I'm a girl... (incase you never read any of my other posts & the AV doesn't tip you of on that)

I just started going back to school & am double majoring in Computer Science & Computer Enjenering. I plan to get my masters in PC Science later on down the road...

Now. those who have known me for a long time kind of figured I was headding in that direction anyway...

The thing is I didn't.
Why? Well, because growing up no one really pointed out to me that "Hey you know girls can do that too" & though I'm a stuborn opinionated brat @ times I still listen when they told me this junk...
another thing is that I used to really be in to church when I was a kid (now I'm not talking about all religions here! just speaking from personal experience) We were basically told that girls should just keep them selfs busy through high school untill they graduated & got married... I'm only 21 years old ! this is too long ago...

Finally I said screw all of you I want to do this...
so I am



OK that's the end of it ...
I think

 

[riff]

last semester i took the intro CS course at my school. there were more males than females but there were still a fair number of females. however, this semester i'm taking a 200 level CS course and i am the only female. the guys sometimes refer to me as "she" and try to assign me to mential tasks as opposed to the heavily technical ones. i won't stand for that though. it's a matter of reprogramming (teehee) the minds of men who aren't used to women in the discipline.

Good for you, lexie, good for u

 

[riff]

Re: Here I go again....

OK. I have no clue where to start...

The thing is I didn't.
Why? Well, because growing up no one really pointed out to me that "Hey you know girls can do that too" & though I'm a stuborn opinionated brat @ times I still listen when they told me this junk...
another thing is that I used to really be in to church when I was a kid (now I'm not talking about all religions here! just speaking from personal experience) We were basically told that girls should just keep them selfs busy through high school untill they graduated & got married... I'm only 21 years old ! this is too long ago...

Finally I said screw all of you I want to do this...
so I am



OK that's the end of it ...
I think

Fuck 'em JB. Rock & Roll. I prefer females to males. They are better students.

On the otherhand, I do IT. Teaching an entirely female class would certainly be a challenge to my presentation style.

 

[Willing and Unsure]

i want to respond to this, but i'm not really sure where to begin, or even really what to say..

i guess i'll start with i am an engineering major at my school. i started out in nuclear engineering, but realized that i really hate engineering, not because of sexism or because i cant do it (i can, i just dont like it). i'm going to be changing my major in the near future.. quite possibly to computer science.

i dont think its so much that women are discouraged from doing it (everyone here is extremely supportive of a women in science or engineering), but more that the gender biases that have been in place since the industrial revolution that a woman's place is in the home is more of what is discouraging. i've had several classes where i'm the only female in it, and the guys look at me funny.. almost like i'm not supposed to be there. once they take the time to realize that i'm really intelligent (doesnt take long, cuz i really cut them down sometimes) they back off and give me a chance just to be a friend, let alone a person.

i'll agree that there arent many women in engineering or technology, but i also think that the numbers are increasing. my high school, and several colleges, really encouraged engineering and technology. especially to juniors and seniors that are in higher level math and science courses in high school. i think that them pushing that really helped me head to where i am now, and will eventually be, as well as many others.

 

[riff]

Beauty is a curse sometimes. There are a lot of girls that feel like you do. They just want to do their things and for the goons to leave them alone.

Fuck 'em. Go for what YOU want, I say. You have to live in your skin. Not them.

I have one female student in one of my classes. She doesn't take shit from anybody. I think the guys respect her for that.

 

[Azwed]

I don't think the prof I mentioned will be teaching much longer. He is fighting off at least three lawsuits right now and may have more coming. He is also pretty old now. I think he is in his early or middle 60's.

When you sign up for EF classes at my school you don't sign up for a particular proff. You sign up for a time slot and then find out what your proff is when you show up the first day. Otherwise I think everyone would try and stay out of his classes. They may have changned that format by now but I am not sure. I have not taken an EF class in three years.


I haven't even seen this particular prof semester which is unusual. I walk by the main EF building a lot and used to see him walking some where every other week. I remember because I made a point to flick him off on a semi-regular basis.

 

[Weird Harold]

Re: Re: This may sound sexist, but...

There may be enough differences between the way male and female minds think to make it difficult for some percentage of females to enter certain traditionally male fields such as engineering, but that is their problem and if they can do the work while overcoming any hinderance then more power to them.
...
Unfortunately, there are still people as Azwed described - I knew one prof ... but he was a lot more circumspect about voicing his opinions ...

I've noticed that the common description of women who are in technical fields is, "She doesn't take shit off anyone." I think we, as a society, need to make an effort to make it so they don't need that agressive attitude to succeed.

We need to teach young boys that they shouldn't be intimidated by smart women, and we need to teach young women to let their intelligence shine.

There are differences between men and women in the way they think, but the differences aren't the sterotypical differences that produce long funny lists about how men and women see things differently -- those differences are mostly cultural influences and based on "traditional" gender roles. There is no such thing as a "shopping gene" and we need to teach children from an early age to recognise that traditional gender roles are not the only acceptable roles and that there's nothing wrong with choosing a different path.

 

[Willing and Unsure]

Beauty is a curse sometimes. There are a lot of girls that feel like you do. They just want to do their things and for the goons to leave them alone.

that would be true for me... if only i had some form of beauty

 

[riff]

that would be true for me... if only i had some form of beauty

You need to get gangbanged.

You are beautiful. If you don't understand that, I hope that one day your beauty comes and kicks your little insecure ass.

Pick yourself up, baby. Pick yourself up.

 

[Willing and Unsure]

You need to get gangbanged.

You are beautiful. If you don't understand that, I hope that one day your beauty comes and kicks your little insecure ass.

Pick yourself up, baby. Pick yourself up.

for one thing... i get laid nearly every night of the week...

and for another, you can't honestly tell me that i'm beautiful since i'm one of the 'fat chicks' you have recently referred to in another one of your threads. and i may be insecure, but at least i dont go insulting people because of their faults, whether they are physical or a part of their personality.

 

[riff]

for one thing... i get laid nearly every night of the week...

and for another, you can't honestly tell me that i'm beautiful since i'm one of the 'fat chicks' you have recently referred to in another one of your threads. and i may be insecure, but at least i dont go insulting people because of their faults, whether they are physical or a part of their personality.

What I think doesn't mean shit. It's what you think that fucking counts.

I could give a fuck what you think. There it is.

slap me.

 

[Willing and Unsure]

I could give a fuck what you think. There it is.

if you could give a fuck about what i think, why do you keep responding to what i've said?

 

[riff]

Because I fucking wanted to!

I don't need to explain jack shit to anyone and you can all go fuck yourselves for all i care.

Don't fuck with me, sugar. Get with it or leave my ass alone.

 

[Willing and Unsure]

ya know... i think you're the one that needs to get laid


and i aint fucking with you yet... if you want me to fuck with you, i will