Communication Problems And Getting One's Needs Met

[BiBunny]

I don't normally post in HT (I'm more of a BDSM forum denizen), but I think my question belongs here more than it belongs there. Plus, it's more of a relationship question than a BDSM question, so maybe it'll help someone other than just me as well.

Lemme see, I'm 25, currently involved in a polyamorous relationship with a married couple. It's an Owner/pet type relationship, where I'm the pet, and they're my Master and Mistress. (There's no power exchange going on between the two of them.) I am stupidly in love with them.

The problem is that I apparently have no communication skills.

I have several needs that aren't being met, and I can't get it across to them in any meaningful kind of way. I talk to them in ways that I think are clear, but the hell with being on the same page--we're not even in the same book at this point. I still have the same insecurities as before, and there seems to be zero change in their behavior. They don't even seem to understand WHY I'm upset. Or even that I AM concerned about anything until I bang them over the head with it. We're just going in circles, and that gets old fast.

(Another reason I didn't post this in BDSM Talk is that I wanted more constructive responses than "You're the slave, and they can treat you any way they want, so deal.")

A lot of the problem, I know, is that I'm a very sensitive (probably overly so) person who is quite intuitive and empathic and probably prone to leaping to conclusions. They, on the other hand, seem unable to understand why I'm so unhappy with their actions a lot of the time, no matter how hard I try to explain it, though I usually don't have much difficulty understanding their issues with me and try to take steps to fix those problems when they arise.

It always ends in a huge argument that ends up not solving anything and probably causes more problems and resentments that crop up later. I'm thoroughly sick of this particular vicious cycle, so I'm asking for help.

I know I've left things rather vague, but I wasn't sure what information was relevant and what wasn't. I also sort of have this tendency to post so much in my initial post that no one wants to wade through it all to the end. So feel free to ask questions or request elaboration or whatever. Thanks!

 

[Cattypuss]

I hope this doesn't sound trite but... you express yourself very clearly and very persuasively in writing. Could you write them a letter?

 

[VelvetDarkness]

What sort of issues are these that don't get resolved? I know you were being deliberately vague but to understand your emotional connection to all this properly, I think I'd like you to elaborate a bit.

That things keep descending into arguments is definitely unproductive. Would it clarify things to add a contractual aspect to your dynamic so that obligations and responsibilities on all sides are crystal clear?

I've never been in a poly relationship but they are notoriously tricky to navigate and to enter an established marriage must be a very delicate situation. Is it possible they just don't know you as well as they know each other yet?

 

[eastern sun]

Please forgive me for bringing the classic BDSM response here, BiBunny. But I want to spin it a little differently.

They may not be able to give you what you need. No matter how well you express it.

The dynamics you're describing sound familiar to me. I'm wondering if they aren't the kind of interpersonal dynamics that just work in M/s relationships. Meaning the "slave" in the relationship has to take full responsibility for meeting her own needs. There is no guarantee that they will be met by the other parties who are putting their own interests first, often at your expense.

They may have moments, even lengthy moments, of generosity and love and understanding, but their fundamental make-up is not necessarily subject to change. Even if you want them to change. Even if to change would make them better people.

It doesn't mean you shouldn't express yourself. But they may not be able to do what you want them to do.

Then you have to ask yourself. . . on balance, is this something I can learn to do for myself? Is it important that I'm in a relationship where someone is able to (fill in the blank)?

Your needs and desires are not at all irrelevant. And you don't have to deal with anything you don't want to deal with. But people who i.d. as dominants and masters are coming to the relationship with their own set of baggage. Do you want to carry it? My experience is that, as a "slave," you will.

It may take years and years for the dominant parties to fully understand you. They may not be "programmed" for empathy. If you're interested in sticking with them, you may discover that they are capable of being incredibly generous once their own needs are met and their hard, thick heads are softened. And that may be worth waiting for.

But if you consistently feel like you're not being heard, and it isn't something you can take care of yourself, there may be nothing you say that will make a difference.

 

[Recidiva]

I don't think you have to deal, but I do think you need to get some power in your relationship, and if the current one doesn't grant you any, start over with a new one (or several new ones, or keep this one and get others.)

Not getting what you want doesn't always mean there's a way to talk someone into it. It does mean that if you've determined it's a NEED and not a want you insist and don't accept anything less - at least as far as you know you're going out and getting it for yourself if nobody else is getting it for you. Vote with your feet.

I do believe that you've expressed yourself clearly (you're always eloquent) and that there's not much more to be done. You can't force someone to listen and patience doesn't pay off when someone else is getting what you they want and they're not motivated to give you any more despite your insistence and need.

Insist on loving yourself first. That to me means removing yourself from painful situations where you know you've done your best, without blame, and opening yourself to new opportunity where you'll have a better option to define the relationship and stay or leave according to how well your needs are met. Whether or not you just supplement your relationship, redefine it or end it, that's up to you.

 

[BiBunny]

I appreciate everyone's input. You've all given me a lot to think about.

In the interest of giving Velvet something else to read , I'll post a few specifics now. If you're easily bored, you can just pass on over this!

Let me just say first and foremost that I'm sure a lot of these problems stem from my overly sensitive nature and the fact that I am pretty ridden with insecurities. I'm not laying the blame entirely at their feet. And, in their defense, some of the things I've brought up to them, once they realized how important those things were, they have adjusted to make easier on me.

The three of us grew up quite differently. We place different values on different things. Master is the male version of me in a lot of ways, but he can still be remarkably stupid about certain things. Mistress and I are pretty much polar opposites, personality-wise.

In my eyes, the things they say and the things they do don't match up. In their eyes, I'm paranoid. I'm not sure how you change that.

For example, I used to go visit them at least once every week or two. Then, I hit sort of a financial rough spot and had to stay here, chained to my laptop, and work all the time. I finally managed to work my way out of said financial rough spot (mostly). In that time, both of them together have come to visit me a grand total of once. He's come more often (with her blessing, while she's at work), but she's only visited once.

Now it seems that even though I have the tiniest bit of funds to start spending on gas to go visit them again, they don't really care if I come or not. I tell them I miss them. They tell me they miss me. They ask what I'm doing this week. I say, "Working." (I work from home, so all I have to do is forward my calls and take my laptop when I go see them. They know this and even had a phone line installed at their house so I can work when I'm there.)

I'm not going to show up uninvited, and they don't appear to want to issue the invitation. It's like they've gotten used to me not being there and don't care if I come or not anymore. So we sit at our respective places and talk online, which is a poor substitute.

That's just one example. This post is already kind of long, so I won't add more specifics at the moment.

I was raised that there's a way you treat people, no matter who they are. You try to always be polite, generous, and considerate of others' time and feelings. I understand that that's not the norm nowadays. But it hurts me when they do things that make them look like inconsiderate asses and can't understand why I'm upset.

Maybe I expect too much. This isn't a normal M/s "I'm ignoring you or putting my needs before yours" thing, at least not in my opinion. This is an "I am too self-absorbed to see that my behavior is negatively affecting you" kind of thing.

The reason I haven't thrown up my hands in despair is that once they DO realize they're negatively affecting me, they will adjust their behavior appropriately. I do my best to do the same for them. But I feel like I'm constantly banging my head against the wall, trying to make them understand why doing x, y, and z hurts me. They. Just. Don't. Get. It.

I know our communication styles are different. When problems crop up, they automatically rush to defend one another without even looking at things from my perspective, and that hurts, too. They say that they want an equal third partner, but when things like that happen, I feel like there's no way I'll ever really be "equal" with them.

They're kind of oblivious, honestly, and don't respond to anything short of being repeatedly whacked over the head with information until it finally penetrates. Then, the light bulb goes off, and they realize what I'm getting at. It's just a long and painful process, and I'm wondering if there's any way to make it a little shorter and less agonizing.

 

[MisterSir]

They're kind of oblivious, honestly, and don't respond to anything short of being repeatedly whacked over the head with information until it finally penetrates. Then, the light bulb goes off, and they realize what I'm getting at. It's just a long and painful process, and I'm wondering if there's any way to make it a little shorter and less agonizing.

Not unless you keep a brick handy with some of the above written on it for tossing at them. People as self-absorbed as they sound like (the bad kind of self-absorbed, for clarification, although I'm not sure there's a good way to be self-absorbed) are always going to have trouble seeing these things so if you want them to understand, you're just going to have to keep on banging and hope something sinks in. I'd agree that writing them a letter would be a good idea, and even showing them that post might work, but clearly they don't get your problems and they're unlikely to.

I'm reading that over again and it sounds rather trite, but if it helps it helps.

 

[Recidiva]

Thanks for the specifics.

What I do seem to notice, at least from my side, is that you are okay with taking all the burden of the relationship, including being responsible for all the solution. You just want to get better and stronger and smarter and fix it...and they...don't. I don't want to force you to defend them, and this isn't about them being wrong. It's about the tone in which you write, where you take full responsibilty for being smarter and more responsible than they are, while also saying you're paranoid and a bad communicator. You seem to be minimizing your positive input while maximizing your responsibility for the whole shebang. I'm not sure that's reality. I find you to be very clear and your examples do not sound unreasonable.

This isn't (at least for me) Dom/sub or Master/slave or anything but someone who needs something and someone else who is disinterested in doing that thing or being up front about it. I have less faith in people making agreements, always being able to keep them. I think that's human and understandable and if you've done your best, you can make changes for your own best interest without blame. I just don't want you pushing that needle too far into the red so you become resentful and angry.

Relationships between humans need for everyone to be engaged and holding up their end. It seems like you're willing to try to hold up all ends of everything, but how is that a relationship and not just you doing all the work?

There are lots of people who say they want to be responsible, but they really have no intention of doing so, or even blamelessly, don't know how. Again, this isn't about blame. I'm not judging them, but I'm saying that's my relationship math. If you sign away a lot of your power of negotiation and give them the responsibiity to satisfy you and you're not satisfied...I don't think you can fix that with patience and virtue. I think you realize you have a broken contract and in this case it takes three people to break that contract. If the problem was JUST YOU...then they could have helped you with it. Seems like the problem is with the group dynamics and you're unable to address them effectively.

Please don't minimize your powers of words or persuasion, which I find to be certainly adequate if not excellent.

I used to think that "if I just find the right words...they'd understand..." BUT...I did discover that that had to do with my own control issues in a way...that I was just that good and that persuasive, and I had to realize...other people have free will and sometimes they exert that free will to not give a damn about what I need and want, and that's just what it is. It's up to me to recognize it and deal with that reality. No amount of me idealizing or minimizing my abilities or how much I wanted something, made a dent in the results.

 

[simplegirl]

BiBunny, as everyone here has stated...you do communicate very effectively. Granted, I'm not in your shoes, but it sounds very much like the onus is always on you. The impression I'm left with is that you'll always be the third, and so the odd man out, so to speak, rather than an equal partner. Are you *respected* by them?

No matter how well you communicate, you can't tell someone what they don't want to hear, nor can you change their behaviour....you can only change your own.

The question really is...are YOU ready to continue this way?

It's a hard question to face. Best of luck to you.

 

[kimbernee]

I think what I'm hearing is that they're just not that into you. It can be very hard to end a relationship when you're the one who's crazy in love but long term it's usually well worth it for your self-respect and the chance at a relationship with someone(s) else who want to see you as much as you want to see them.

 

[BiBunny]

BiBunny, as everyone here has stated...you do communicate very effectively. Granted, I'm not in your shoes, but it sounds very much like the onus is always on you. The impression I'm left with is that you'll always be the third, and so the odd man out, so to speak, rather than an equal partner. Are you *respected* by them?

No matter how well you communicate, you can't tell someone what they don't want to hear, nor can you change their behaviour....you can only change your own.

The question really is...are YOU ready to continue this way?

It's a hard question to face. Best of luck to you.

I think what I'm hearing is that they're just not that into you. It can be very hard to end a relationship when you're the one who's crazy in love but long term it's usually well worth it for your self-respect and the chance at a relationship with someone(s) else who want to see you as much as you want to see them.

So it's not just me who sees these things, huh? *Nods* Interesting.

 

[bakedbeams]

BiBunny, if you verbally communicate the way you have written here, there is no reason why you should not be understood.

When I saw your comment that they will defend each other, over and above listening to you or attacking the identified problem, I can see clearly why you are feeling so very frustrated. Not only would you not feel heard, but the problem isnt solved, and you would be placed on the defensive.

I remember the old assertive approach to problems, where one identifies the problem and takes ownership for the 'feelings'. It goes .....

I feel ............ ie lonely and disullusioned

When you .....ie havent invited me up to visit for a while

Because ........ie i love you both and miss you so very much

I would like....ie you to invite me to stay even if you know I dont have any money.

It seems sad that Mistress has only visited you once, perhaps there are reasons that she has not shared with you, but you will only know if you ask. In the mean time, your feelings are hurt and confused and clearly you need that to be heard and hopefully acknowledged.

Its not all up to you to solve this either, its a three way exchange.

 

[BiBunny]

BiBunny, if you verbally communicate the way you have written here, there is no reason why you should not be understood.

When I saw your comment that they will defend each other, over and above listening to you or attacking the identified problem, I can see clearly why you are feeling so very frustrated. Not only would you not feel heard, but the problem isnt solved, and you would be placed on the defensive.

I remember the old assertive approach to problems, where one identifies the problem and takes ownership for the 'feelings'. It goes .....

I feel ............ ie lonely and disullusioned

When you .....ie havent invited me up to visit for a while

Because ........ie i love you both and miss you so very much

I would like....ie you to invite me to stay even if you know I dont have any money.

It seems sad that Mistress has only visited you once, perhaps there are reasons that she has not shared with you, but you will only know if you ask. In the mean time, your feelings are hurt and confused and clearly you need that to be heard and hopefully acknowledged.

Its not all up to you to solve this either, its a three way exchange.

Heh. I don't verbally communicate well at all. But I try, and I try to write things down for them, too.

I'll give your method a shot. Even if it involves tying them to the couch and duct-taping their mouths shut until I finish. Though that might be kinda fun, actually. Thanks!

 

[ecstaticsub]

I remember learning that method many years ago..I had forgotten it. It'll help me, too.

Thanks.

BB-Sorry I can't offer you any helpful advice...but I do wish you well.

 

[infinity706]

Well, it sounds like you feel left out, mostly because you're uncomfortable with the fact that it's always you, offering to come over, making you the dominant party in that aspect.

 

[CutieMouse]

I appreciate everyone's input. You've all given me a lot to think about.

<snippity>

In my eyes, the things they say and the things they do don't match up. In their eyes, I'm paranoid. I'm not sure how you change that.

For example, I used to go visit them at least once every week or two. Then, I hit sort of a financial rough spot and had to stay here, chained to my laptop, and work all the time. I finally managed to work my way out of said financial rough spot (mostly). In that time, both of them together have come to visit me a grand total of once. He's come more often (with her blessing, while she's at work), but she's only visited once.

Now it seems that even though I have the tiniest bit of funds to start spending on gas to go visit them again, they don't really care if I come or not. I tell them I miss them. They tell me they miss me. They ask what I'm doing this week. I say, "Working." (I work from home, so all I have to do is forward my calls and take my laptop when I go see them. They know this and even had a phone line installed at their house so I can work when I'm there.)

I'm not going to show up uninvited, and they don't appear to want to issue the invitation. It's like they've gotten used to me not being there and don't care if I come or not anymore. So we sit at our respective places and talk online, which is a poor substitute.

That's just one example. This post is already kind of long, so I won't add more specifics at the moment.

As a somewhat oblivious person, may I give you my take on the bolded bit, above?

If I missed someone terribly, and they missed me, asking what they were doing that week would be my tentative "I want to see her, but I don't want to impose on or be rejected by her" sort of thing.

Because in my head, I read that and thought "Ooookkkkaaaaaay... so she's working. From home. On the laptop. Knowing we installed a phone line here so she can do that *from here*... but she's not *here*. Maybe she doesn't want to be here as much as we want her here, and I'm so no up for that so I'll bring it up casually and see what she says." And then the conversation goes kaput and no one gets what they want - to be together.

Seriously sweetie - they installed the line for you. They want you to be part of the family. This is like a giant umbrella of "get your ass here whenever you can" land [to me]. Do you wait for your parents to specifically invite you over? Kitty? Siblings? Or do you just mostly flow together? 'Cause I gotta say I'd be totally stymied by your upsettedness over the example given.

 

[BiBunny]

As a somewhat oblivious person, may I give you my take on the bolded bit, above?

If I missed someone terribly, and they missed me, asking what they were doing that week would be my tentative "I want to see her, but I don't want to impose on or be rejected by her" sort of thing.

Because in my head, I read that and thought "Ooookkkkaaaaaay... so she's working. From home. On the laptop. Knowing we installed a phone line here so she can do that *from here*... but she's not *here*. Maybe she doesn't want to be here as much as we want her here, and I'm so no up for that so I'll bring it up casually and see what she says." And then the conversation goes kaput and no one gets what they want - to be together.

Seriously sweetie - they installed the line for you. They want you to be part of the family. This is like a giant umbrella of "get your ass here whenever you can" land [to me]. Do you wait for your parents to specifically invite you over? Kitty? Siblings? Or do you just mostly flow together? 'Cause I gotta say I'd be totally stymied by your upsettedness over the example given.

Thanks, CM. This is usually the kind of response I get from them when I bring things up. They seem baffled as to why I'm upset, and I can't understand why they DON'T know why I'm upset.

I will say in the aforementioned example, if they take it farther by saying, "Wanna come over?", I always say, "Sure! Just tell me when!" The "when" never happens. And I know they're always busy, and I often *don't* know their schedule for the week, so I hate to say something like, "So can I come over on Thursday?"

It's confusing.

The good news is, last night I talked to him a bit. He was sick the night before, so after fussing over him a while (you know how men are!), I told him that I'd like to talk to him sometime when he wasn't busy and when he felt better. He responded that he knew they'd been neglecting me, and he was very sorry.

The fact that he realized it without me drawing him a diagram is a good thing, right?

 

[CutieMouse]

Thanks, CM. This is usually the kind of response I get from them when I bring things up. They seem baffled as to why I'm upset, and I can't understand why they DON'T know why I'm upset.

I will say in the aforementioned example, if they take it farther by saying, "Wanna come over?", I always say, "Sure! Just tell me when!" The "when" never happens. And I know they're always busy, and I often *don't* know their schedule for the week, so I hate to say something like, "So can I come over on Thursday?"

It's confusing.

The good news is, last night I talked to him a bit. He was sick the night before, so after fussing over him a while (you know how men are!), I told him that I'd like to talk to him sometime when he wasn't busy and when he felt better. He responded that he knew they'd been neglecting me, and he was very sorry.

The fact that he realized it without me drawing him a diagram is a good thing, right?

Translation: the "wanna come over" is them inviting you over. There is no "when".

I will use the aforementioned example of Kitty to ask a question - do you and Kitty have the sort of relationship where you wait for her to specifically invite you over (date/time/etc), or are y'all more of a flow in and out of each other's space kinda friends?

 

[BiBunny]

Translation: the "wanna come over" is them inviting you over. There is no "when".

I will use the aforementioned example of Kitty to ask a question - do you and Kitty have the sort of relationship where you wait for her to specifically invite you over (date/time/etc), or are y'all more of a flow in and out of each other's space kinda friends?

Well, Kitty and I live together now, so it's a little different, but point taken. We've made plans to spend a weekend together in a couple of weeks, so I think that's good news. We can't do it any sooner because they're going out of town this weekend, and I'm going out of town the next. *Crosses fingers and hopes this is a good sign*

 

[satindesire]

You know, after mulling over this several times I have to say...it doesn't really seem like they don't 'get it' as much as it seems like their communication styles and yours are just complete polar opposites.

And also, it seems like they're expecting a certain amount of independent thought from you, that you don't seem to expect from yourself because of your own perspective about your relationship.

Example given: "Can I come over?"

"Yes, of course!"

"Okay, when?"

".....(no answer)"

And you getting upset about that. Perhaps they aren't the types for details. Perhaps they want YOU to be more specific and say "Can I come over (this time/day?)". Honestly, micromanagement is tiring, and even more so for a couple (I'm guessing) because of the fact that when it's a single person, they're dealing with one persons' worth of crap. When it's a couple, they're dealing with TWO person's worth of crap and it's mentally exhausting (Again, guessing!) to be so specific for a third that they probably see as capable and welcome to make some of her own choices. And I'm not saying your needs are crap at all, please don't take me as implying that!

Just because you're a slave doesn't mean you can't have your own opinions, wants and make your own decisions, and I think your own attitude and viewpoint about where you stand in that relationship is vastly different from THEIRS, hence the difficulty in communication.

Of course, I could be COMPLETELY wrong and off and talking out of my ass, again...I'm just guessing.

 

[CutieMouse]

Well, Kitty and I live together now, so it's a little different, but point taken. We've made plans to spend a weekend together in a couple of weeks, so I think that's good news. We can't do it any sooner because they're going out of town this weekend, and I'm going out of town the next. *Crosses fingers and hopes this is a good sign*

Good.

I do understand where you're coming from, but it's like my best friend and myself - we've lived together the last few years, but prior to that we had keys to each others houses for several years because we reached a point in our friendship where asking/inviting each other over was just silly. They may be at the "asking/inviting is just silly" point, but you aren't quite there yet, which is causing some disconnect.

 

[BiBunny]

You know, after mulling over this several times I have to say...it doesn't really seem like they don't 'get it' as much as it seems like their communication styles and yours are just complete polar opposites.

And also, it seems like they're expecting a certain amount of independent thought from you, that you don't seem to expect from yourself because of your own perspective about your relationship.

Example given: "Can I come over?"

"Yes, of course!"

"Okay, when?"

".....(no answer)"

And you getting upset about that. Perhaps they aren't the types for details. Perhaps they want YOU to be more specific and say "Can I come over (this time/day?)". Honestly, micromanagement is tiring, and even more so for a couple (I'm guessing) because of the fact that when it's a single person, they're dealing with one persons' worth of crap. When it's a couple, they're dealing with TWO person's worth of crap and it's mentally exhausting (Again, guessing!) to be so specific for a third that they probably see as capable and welcome to make some of her own choices. And I'm not saying your needs are crap at all, please don't take me as implying that!

Just because you're a slave doesn't mean you can't have your own opinions, wants and make your own decisions, and I think your own attitude and viewpoint about where you stand in that relationship is vastly different from THEIRS, hence the difficulty in communication.

Of course, I could be COMPLETELY wrong and off and talking out of my ass, again...I'm just guessing.

*Nods*

I see what you're saying. And I do agree that our communication styles are totally different.

They're very busy folks, and I understand that. She works an evening job, and he's currently commuting to Atlanta, training for his new job. Then, their weekends are almost always full with family commitments or things with friends. Me, on the other hand...I have no life, so I work and do very little else, LOL.

Because I never know what their schedule is, I always feel awkward suggesting days, particularly days for me to go over THERE. Mistress is the kind of person who always has to plan things, and I'm that way, too, to some extent. So I'm kind of at a loss to figure out why they'll plan, plan, plan for other people and just sort of expect me to drop everything and run whenever they decide to squeeze me in between everything else they have to do.

I dunno. I think I take things the wrong way a lot of times. And it leads to a lot of confusion.

 

[Vixandra]

So I'm kind of at a loss to figure out why they'll plan, plan, plan for other people and just sort of expect me to drop everything and run whenever they decide to squeeze me in between everything else they have to do.

Are you usually able to just drop everything and head over? If that's your standard procedure for interacting with them, then its hard to fault them for expecting it.

Maybe you could try setting up a recurring event, like the third weekend of every month they're yours and you're theirs, let the fun begin. It gives all of you something to plan for, plan around and look forward to.


I've worked nights, did for over two years, and it makes it difficult to say the least to try to re-sync one's schedule to the day-shifters. I had to KNOW when something day-shift oriented was going on and know in advance.

 

[Pookah]

smell the coffee?

I don't read this as being a relationship. And if that's a fair comment, observation etc. I suggest further that your articulate nature is neither respected nor understood.
They don't get it.
And if they don't, your misinterpreting all the rest, because that's not their message.
I think a dom/sub relation is very very special. Ignoring you is not a part of that. It's just ignorance and worse, selfishness, and worst, not the relationship you think you have.
Life should pivot about you, not seem like a crack in the pavement. Come see the tree tops.

 

[DarkBee]

Had to quote

"My needs aren't being met!" "Well, drop some of your needs!" - George Carlin