Comments and Questions?

[lostandfounder]

I was reading the review thread when I noticed that the good Miss (Anna) Swirls left a comment on leaving and reading comments. She said something to the effect that she can understand a poem better after reading 'smarter' people's comments. (Like we all don't know Anna is the smartest person here...well, maybe a step behind Tarablackwood22)

Anyway, as usual, her words got me to thinking.

I try not to read what others say about a poem before I write a comment on it.... but should I? Is it better to try seeing the poem from other's perspectives or is the point of leaving comments supposed to be about how you see the poem without the influence of others?

I'm not talking so much about scoring but about how we all see poems a little bit differently. Naked eyes or glasses?

 

[twelveoone]

I was reading the review thread when I noticed that the good Miss (Anna) Swirls left a comment on leaving and reading comments. She said something to the effect that she can understand a poem better after reading 'smarter' people's comments. (Like we all don't know Anna is the smartest person here...well, maybe a step behind Tarablackwood22)

Anyway, as usual, her words got me to thinking.

I try not to read what others say about a poem before I write a comment on it.... but should I? Is it better to try seeing the poem from other's perspectives or is the point of leaving comments supposed to be about how you see the poem without the influence of others?

I'm not talking so much about scoring but about how we all see poems a little bit differently. Naked eyes or glasses?

Just goes to show you how dumb people can be. annaswirls may not only be one of the best poets here, she may be one of the smartest. Hopefully, she was talking about technical aspects of Western forms of which she does not use, or again she may have meant that she may read the comments after she reads the poem to see if she missed something. I do think an element of herd mentality exists here. You see it the comments - it was soooo moooving. (couldn't resist).
This "dumbness" exists to a degree in most of us (psychotics exempt), that is how society functions(sad, all too sad).
A poem should stand alone between the writer and the reader, it exists alone - I got a great comment once to the effect of "I don't know why, I just liked it". That should always be the starting point, after that the other discussions can begin.
Naked, sometimes ask for the reading glasses, never, ever use someone else's perscription - you will become handicapped worse than them.

 

[Miss Oatlash]

I read first, form my own opinion, then read other's comments. To me, poetry is personal, and what I get from it is colored by my own personality and my own experiences. Then I like seeing what others might have gotten from it.

 

[annaswirls]

I read a poem
form my own opinion of it
get a feel for it, not necessarily the meaning but the feel

sometimes I want to know what it really was meant to mean, I think that the readers interpretation is important but not everything--

Sometimes I have no idea why I am attracted to it-- sometimes things are so close to me I cannot see them. I feel things that I am unable to express. Other people seem to be able to do this much better than I can.


I think that we all can learn from each others interpretations and knowledge, background etc.


I have no training in writing or poetry. I still do not know what the hell an enjambment is. I never heard of a strophe. Sometimes I get comments on my poetry that I have no idea what it means.... someone once said "a lovely cinquain" and I was like what the fuck is a cinquain.

I once had a critique of my poem praising my use of different sound combinations that represent what my poem was saying. I had no idea what they were talking about, but when I looked at the poem, I realized they were "right" and thought -- you know, I did do that on purpose, I just had no idea that I was doing it.


Sometimes it is good to be conscious of what you are doing by accident --- things that make your poem work, so that you can better use those tools.

With me it has been instinct and hit or miss.

My favorite poet once said "I don't know anything about poetry" and I feel the same way.

I am learning, but I am also learning that I am not so sure I want to learn.


In some ways knowing too much about a flower takes away from it's beauty, sometimes it adds to it-- knowing the complex nature etc. I have a hard time appreciating a poem because of it's technical merit. Like gymnastics. Those mandatory elements throw chunks of metal into the putty of the beauty. But they are a way for the judges to give a number to something that would otherwise not be quantifiable.

Like intelligence.



I like what is beautiful, what is true, what is honest and real. What has raw emotion. I have a hard time seomtimes communicating why I love a particular poem.

Sometimes it is hard for me to comment on much else. The rest seems to be clever ways of following clever rules and I am not at that point yet.

I have to depend upon people who know something about reading poetry in order to help me communicate what it is I am feeling or thinking. I do not have the vocabulary.


I have to do more of my free response bouncing off a poem because sometimes that is the best compliment I can give or have received, the inspiration of another to write.

~anna, not smarter than the average bear

 

[annaswirls]

I was reading the review thread when I noticed that the good Miss (Anna) Swirls left a comment on leaving and reading comments. She said something to the effect that she can understand a poem better after reading 'smarter' people's comments. (Like we all don't know Anna is the smartest person here...well, maybe a step behind Tarablackwood22)

Anyway, as usual, her words got me to thinking.

I try not to read what others say about a poem before I write a comment on it.... but should I? Is it better to try seeing the poem from other's perspectives or is the point of leaving comments supposed to be about how you see the poem without the influence of others?

I'm not talking so much about scoring but about how we all see poems a little bit differently. Naked eyes or glasses?

I dont think I adressed the question. Do what feels right for you. Read or don't read, there are benefits of both. There is no way to read a poem without the influence of others, we wear the glasses we have grown since the day we were born-- it is next to impossible to take them off, all we can do is accept they are there and not kid ourselves that we see through our eyes, but also through the lens shaped by others. Unless we were raised in isolation of other humans, and then we would not have survived this long.

and thanks for the compliments 12 and lost, you are too kind and generous

 

[twelveoone]

I have no training in writing or poetry. I still do not know what the hell an enjambment is. I never heard of a strophe. Sometimes I get comments on my poetry that I have no idea what it means.... someone once said "a lovely cinquain" and I was like what the fuck is a cinquain.

I am learning, but I am also learning that I am not so sure I want to learn.

~anna, not smarter than the average bear

anna, I guess L&F and I have a bit of friendly feud going on as to who is the most grovelworthy (not mentioned but included in the mix, WickedEve). Maybe I should start a Poll! All three eminently
grovelworthy poet(esse)s.
But in the interest of expanding your knowledge of poetry, I offer:
enjambment - is the thing at the end of fencing foils aka lifesaver
strophe - is a beer, from Milwaukee I think
cinquain - this is tough, I think it has 5 meanings, 1.) he was one of the guys in the SLA (patty hearst), (and 2.)) name taken from a Haitian insurrectionist. (3 and 4 we won't go into) 5.) I think your cinquain is lovely too, one of the reasons we grovel so much.

Than anna says
"I like what is beautiful, what is true, what is honest and real. What has raw emotion."
and 1201 wonders, gee she leaves such nice comments on my stuff
Also says
"and thanks for the compliments 12 and lost, you are too kind and generous"
NO WE ARE NOT...
and 1201 wonders again, Tara has the same reaction (to grovelling), could they be one and the same, I've never seen them in the same place at the same time, is this like Clark Kent and Superman; shoes - Tara- no shoes (I can't recognize you)-anna

1201 very confused, goes back to writting gibberish and shit, hopes WickedEve doesn't come after him


http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=159625

 

[tarablackwood22]

anna, I guess L&F and I have a bit of friendly feud going on as to who is the most grovelworthy (not mentioned but included in the mix, WickedEve). Maybe I should start a Poll! All three eminently
grovelworthy poet(esse)s.
But in the interest of expanding your knowledge of poetry, I offer:
enjambment - is the thing at the end of fencing foils aka lifesaver
strophe - is a beer, from Milwaukee I think
cinquain - this is tough, I think it has 5 meanings, 1.) he was one of the guys in the SLA (patty hearst), (and 2.)) name taken from a Haitian insurrectionist. (3 and 4 we won't go into) 5.) I think your cinquain is lovely too, one of the reasons we grovel so much.

Than anna says
"I like what is beautiful, what is true, what is honest and real. What has raw emotion."
and 1201 wonders, gee she leaves such nice comments on my stuff
Also says
"and thanks for the compliments 12 and lost, you are too kind and generous"
NO WE ARE NOT...
and 1201 wonders again, Tara has the same reaction (to grovelling), could they be one and the same, I've never seen them in the same place at the same time, is this like Clark Kent and Superman; shoes - Tara- no shoes (I can't recognize you)-anna

1201 very confused, goes back to writting gibberish and shit, hopes WickedEve doesn't come after him


http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=159625

ROFL

This is one of the best posts I have ever read!!

 

[The Mutt]

I have no schooling in writing. I just write what sounds just right.
But I don't have clue how to punctuate it.
Does anyone know a good link that can tell me what the generally accepted rules are? Something that a brick-head like me can understand?

 

[minsue]

I have no schooling in writing. I just write what sounds just right.
But I don't have clue how to punctuate it.
Does anyone know a good link that can tell me what the generally accepted rules are? Something that a brick-head like me can understand?

http://www.grammarbook.com/

I had a better one, but apparently I didn't bookmark it. Doh!

edited to add: Found it.

 

[thenry]

If you feel like wading through a literal ton of intricately useful information (from a much, much more hard-headed poetry site), this page contains all the links.

There's even a section on punctuation.

 

[Miss Oatlash]

I have no schooling in writing. I just write what sounds just right.
But I don't have clue how to punctuate it.
Does anyone know a good link that can tell me what the generally accepted rules are? Something that a brick-head like me can understand?

Here's another:

http://www.stpt.usf.edu/pms/

 

[lostandfounder]

To see or not to see....thanks everyone! I think I'll keep doing things the way I have then. Reading, then commenting, then reading other comments and realizing I missed the point entirely.

My question turned into some sort of giant word association thingy. Thanks to everybody to answered. It actually makes for an interesting poem

WORD ASSOCIATION

annaswirls - smart
12:01 - deep
tarablackwood22 – guru
minsue – quiet (always be careful of the quiet ones)
Miss Oatlash – afraid (me-to say the wrong thing)
the Mutt – thoughtful
thenry – strong
lostandfounder – help

No self pity here, uh-uh, no way....all right maybe just a little.
lostandfounder

 

[minsue]

To see or not to see....thanks everyone! I think I'll keep doing things the way I have then. Reading, then commenting, then reading other comments and realizing I missed the point entirely.

My question turned into some sort of giant word association thingy. Thanks to everybody to answered. It actually makes for an interesting poem

WORD ASSOCIATION

annaswirls - smart
12:01 - deep
tarablackwood22 – guru
minsue – quiet (always be careful of the quiet ones)
Miss Oatlash – afraid (me-to say the wrong thing)
the Mutt – thoughtful
thenry – strong
lostandfounder – help

No self pity here, uh-uh, no way....all right maybe just a little.
lostandfounder

 

[twelveoone]

A modest proposal

To see or not to see....thanks everyone! I think I'll keep doing things the way I have then. Reading, then commenting, then reading other comments

There is a wealth out there. I'd like to see YDD back for one. But in that absence, I would like to propose turning this thread into a learning experience. I remember about six or seven examples of poetry that are excellent learning tools, even commenting so.
English is a rapidly changing language, forms and rules adopted at various times of that development. This, whether you like it or not is like something perhaps alluded to in the tower of babel story. The past is important, most of the poetry sites give you snippets of the past. What is said about Ginsberg there? Now what was said when he wrote. Fifty years later a shithead is a genius. Hemingway, same thing.
Here are some quotes from above:
Mutt"I have no schooling in writing. I just write what sounds just right.
But I don't have clue how to punctuate it." and refers to himself as a brick-head.
Well, brick-head you write some damn good stuff, and you have the order of importance down right, write what sounds right, then make it clearer (punctuation).
This stuns me, from annaswirls:
"I have no training in writing or poetry."
then she goes on to say:
"I have a hard time appreciating a poem because of it's technical merit. ... Those mandatory elements throw chunks of metal into the putty of the beauty."
I do not read anna for her technical aspects. I consider her at least in the top three poets here.
Tara may be the best technically, I have read her and learned, but that again is secondary, I read her because she is interesting, she may know because of technique easier ways to make it sound right. I just read something from Ezra Pound, technique was there, sounded quite right, but it was empty.
I suggest (with poets and commenters permission, of course) that we revisit the boneyard, pull out some poems and comments, edit them, use them as an examples, perhaps ask to poet to explain why.
Tara, anna, are you up for that?

 

[tarablackwood22]

Re: A modest proposal

I suggest (with poets and commenters permission, of course) that we revisit the boneyard, pull out some poems and comments, edit them, use them as an examples, perhaps ask to poet to explain why.
Tara, anna, are you up for that?

Sounds good to me.

See if you can dig YDD out of his groundhog hole for this.

 

[Angeline]

Writing a poem can be a technical exercise, but reading poetry shouldn't have to be. To me, what makes a poem "good" is its ability to move me, make me relate to it. I can read a poem that's technically proficient, that is to say well-constructed, uses poetic devices, and so on, but I still don't "feel" it. On the other hand, I can read a poem that's full of flaws (from a technical standpoint), and find it very moving. From that, I'd conclude that the latter is a better poem.

I've edited some poems to death, and in the process made them lose that magical quality that might make a reader say "ooh." That's not good. Editing is important to me, yes, because all writing--even poetry--is communication, and poems that don't communicate to readers fail, in my opinion. But poetry must do more for a reader than just be understood. I think you feel the poems that come from the writer's heart. The best poets here--and certainly the great famous poets--can combine strong proficient writing skill with that sort of truth-magic that puts you inside the world of a poem.

Of course, what each of us--as a reader--reacts to is different, so I may swoon to Neruda and you to, well, whoever, so I suppose part of it is finding what you, as an individual, thinks is wonderful. Comments may or may not help you do that. I read them, but only after I've experienced the poem.

 

[annaswirls]

Re: A modest proposal

omg I just typed out a long response and in one unknown keystroke deleted the whole damn thing.
Kids are fighting over beads I have to make this quick...

first, the putty analogy was for gymnastics


1201-- the thread is a good idea.

And I had no formal training in writing beyond the mandatory comp classes in college and one elective where we read "bad" poetry and everyone told us how great it was.

I have been working on my technical skills at another site, a techincally conservative one. I have been amazed at the lack of clarity in some of my poems that can be helped with one or two changes. Sometimes the lack of attention to technical details can distract the reader from the poem so much that the effect is lost.

I have also seen poems workshopped to death, literally, all life beaten out of them. Like a dough that is overworked.

mmm the other thing I wrote was that the greatest abstract painters first went through classical training, they can do a portrait and landscape with the best of them. Once they had that base, they could build their own style through experimentation.

I have opinions all over the place. But what I do know is that the passion comes First.

"since feeling is first, he who pays too much attention to the syntax of things will never wholly kiss you. Wholly to be a fool while Spring is in the world...." ee cummings my favorite poem.

I am always open to talk about my writing. Soemtimes I won't have answers, but answering questions has been the best way for me to learn why I do what I do.

I want to make sure there are a number of poems featured, as there are so many talented poets with a variety of voices that I would like to learn more from!


Angeline, I like your ideas about the over-working poems, did you read my apples, pork and poetry? It reminded me of your comments. I am not sure you have had time, I know you are busy, but I think you might get a kick out of it (although it was criticized for being about a topic that is too over done, writing about writing )


So go for it, I think it is a cool idea, there is an old thread started by Seattle inspired by Liar a while back you can build on too if you want.



I love talking about writing!!!!! Lets do it.

~anna

 

[annaswirls]

Interact

oh my I forgot about how hard this can be on the old ego lol!

Seattle has aged and won't be offended about "what is so great about this poem" lol!

 

[sandspike]

I write and review by ear

Sometimes I'll check out other comments hoping to steal a
great adjective for my comment. Many of you are really sharp.
I'd make a list, but I don't do long lists or poems.

 

[twelveoone]

Interact

oh my I forgot about how hard this can be on the old ego lol!

Seattle has aged and won't be offended about "what is so great about this poem" lol!

"If the unexamined life be not worth living, perhaps the unexamined writing is not worth reading?"- HomerPindar
I went over and stole a quote (who is this guy? I like this)
this is one of the things I was thinking off, the other things I was thinking off, probabaly have already been done also.
Q. how in the hell did you find that thread anna? I was looking for something else, is there an archieved boneyard somewhere?
Q. Does anybody know how stable these links are.
if so maybe it can be a matter of linking.
Q. will it be helpful to both author and others to see how the "sausage" is made, i.e answering why did you use this line, structure, word, etc., it has helping me immensely, just by reading and commenting, but it is not complete, nor shared.
What do you say, writers who want to improve, would this be helpful. Any other suggestions?

 

[tarablackwood22]

"If the unexamined life be not worth living, perhaps the unexamined writing is not worth reading?"- HomerPindar
I went over and stole a quote (who is this guy? I like this)
this is one of the things I was thinking off, the other things I was thinking off, probabaly have already been done also.
Q. how in the hell did you find that thread anna? I was looking for something else, is there an archieved boneyard somewhere?
Q. Does anybody know how stable these links are.
if so maybe it can be a matter of linking.
Q. will it be helpful to both author and others to see how the "sausage" is made, i.e answering why did you use this line, structure, word, etc., it has helping me immensely, just by reading and commenting, but it is not complete, nor shared.
What do you say, writers who want to improve, would this be helpful. Any other suggestions?

1201 has contacted me and asked if I would start this educational exercise off by putting a poem up to be torn apart and critiqued by everyone who has a mind to. He had a specific poem in mind, and it's okay with me.

After the shredding is over, and all the questions have been asked, I told him I would answer any and all queries about the poem, and also explain its genesis and development.

Is that okay with y'all? If enough of you are agreeable, I'll put it up on this thread and you can beat it to death.

Tara

 

[Tathagata]

1201 has contacted me and asked if I would start this educational exercise off by putting a poem up to be torn apart and critiqued by everyone who has a mind to. He had a specific poem in mind, and it's okay with me.

After the shredding is over, and all the questions have been asked, I told him I would answer any and all queries about the poem, and also explain its genesis and development.

Is that okay with y'all? If enough of you are agreeable, I'll put it up on this thread and you can beat it to death.

Tara

y'all??

WTF??

 

[SeattleRain]

"If the unexamined life be not worth living, perhaps the unexamined writing is not worth reading?"- HomerPindar
I went over and stole a quote (who is this guy? I like this)
this is one of the things I was thinking off, the other things I was thinking off, probabaly have already been done also.
Q. how in the hell did you find that thread anna? I was looking for something else, is there an archieved boneyard somewhere?
Q. Does anybody know how stable these links are.
if so maybe it can be a matter of linking.
Q. will it be helpful to both author and others to see how the "sausage" is made, i.e answering why did you use this line, structure, word, etc., it has helping me immensely, just by reading and commenting, but it is not complete, nor shared.
What do you say, writers who want to improve, would this be helpful. Any other suggestions?

You just have to change the time to view threads from past 100 days

You can use it, old threads have been revived before

Tara, I am sure this will be cool with everyone. Hope it sticks this time!

 

[tarablackwood22]

y'all??

WTF??

I assume that's a yes, monkey?

And this is a NO-CHAT thread, no matter your species.

 

[Tathagata]

I assume that's a yes, monkey?

And this is a NO-CHAT thread, no matter your species.

you gotta put on the leather if you're gonna talk to me like that...


and ummm
yes'm that's a yea y'all