Commas and 'Though'

[dr_mabeuse]

Which is right?

(A) It lasted only a minute, though, and then it stopped.

or

(B) It lasted only a minute though, and then it stopped.

I think I learned that (A) was right, but (B) looks better to me now.

And while we're at it, how would you punctuate an unfinished question like

And you are....?

With an ellipsis, a question mark, or both (as written)?

---dr.M.

 

[Weird Harold]

Which is right?

(A) It lasted only a minute, though, and then it stopped.

or

(B) It lasted only a minute though, and then it stopped.

I think I learned that (A) was right, but (B) looks better to me now.

And while we're at it, how would you punctuate an unfinished question like

And you are....?

With an ellipsis, a question mark, or both (as written)?

---dr.M.

And you are...? With only an ellipsis and question mark, not an ellipsis, a period, and question mark. A Typo on your part I'm sure, but it should be an eellipsis and and ending punctuation if the interrupted statement is not to be continued.

As to the first question, I believe the former is the "correct" punctuation. Howeer, the latter is becoming so common that it's almost an accepted usage.

 

[snooper]

Which is right?
(A) It lasted only a minute, though, and then it stopped.
or
(B) It lasted only a minute though, and then it stopped.

I would decide that by reading it aloud. If I paused during the sentence, I put a comma where I paused. Here it is not too important but consider:
What is this thing called love?
What is this thing called, love?
What, is this thing called love?
What, is this thing called, love?
Four different punctuations, four different meanings.

And while we're at it, how would you punctuate an unfinished question like
And you are....?
With an ellipsis, a question mark, or both (as written)?

I'm almost with WH here, but I would always precede an ellipsis with a space, as:
And you are ...?

 

[hiddenself]

Re: Re: Commas and 'Though'

I'm almost with WH here, but I would always precede an ellipsis with a space, as:
And you are ...?

I think that the usual format in print (US) is no initial space but a space between each dot:

The Chicago Manual of Style decrees spaces "between and around" ellipsis points. So, the correct way would be (and this is the most commonly seen in print I think):

And you are . . . ?

However, the USC Editorial Style Guide has your way (but with a space on either side):

And you are ... ?

and the University of Minessota Style Manual has no spaces at all:

And you are...?

PS Ellipsis (or, should I say, ellipses?) are 3 dots, unless at the end of sentence when they are followed by the usual punctuation mark (period will make it 4 dots, questionmark, etc).

 

[Madame Manga]

Which is right?

(A) It lasted only a minute, though, and then it stopped.

or

(B) It lasted only a minute though, and then it stopped.

I think I learned that (A) was right, but (B) looks better to me now.

And while we're at it, how would you punctuate an unfinished question like

And you are....?

With an ellipsis, a question mark, or both (as written)?

---dr.M.

Option A is correct. Option B is not. "Though" is a parenthetic expression, and those need to be set off by commas. What constitutes a parenthesis can be tricky, however. The usual definition: If the phrase could be removed without destroying the meaning of the sentence, it's a parenthesis.

When the parenthesis is only a slight interruption to the sentence, you may be able to leave the commas out. But leave BOTH of them out if you do. Don't remove one and not the other, which is what Option B has done.

Either:

Your brother, the subaltern, has absconded with the Colonel's fiancee.

or

Your brother the subaltern has absconded with the Colonel's fiancee.

Not:

Your brother the subaltern, has absconded with the Colonel's fiancee.


The ellipsis question is slippery. For tidiness online, such as avoiding unwanted line breaks, I prefer no spaces and no extra periods. Typography for print obviously varies.

"Can it be...?"

"Yes, your errant fiancee...if you will have me..."

MM

 

[A7inchPhildo]

comma?

I was wondering not trying to hyjack the thead. Where can one find "good" directions on comma use?
This is a real weak spot in my stories. I do not know if it is a comma or period or : or ;. I know what the definitions are of each and MS word corrects for some mistakes. I really am interested in the proper use. Not that author's opinions don't count, I am the kind of person who needs to refer back to a page frequently. When putting the use in practice in order to learn it properly.

Phildo

 

[Weird Harold]

comma?

I was wondering not trying to hyjack the thead. Where can one find "good" directions on comma use?

http://www.tc.cc.va.us/writcent/ -- Trinity College's Writing Center

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/ -- Purdue University's OnlineWrintg Lab.

Both are good sources for almost any question about writing, and almost every major university and college have similar sites

 

[snooper]

... Where can one find "good" directions on comma use? ...

The best advice I was ever given was, "Read the piece aloud. If you pause a little, put in a comma. If you pause a lot, put in a full stop. If you pause to take breath, it's a new paragraph."

 

[HawaiiBill]

Re: Re: Commas and 'Though'

"Though" is a parenthetic expression, and those need to be set off by commas.

Then:
The ellipsis question is slippery. For tidiness online, such as avoiding unwanted line breaks, I prefer no spaces and no extra periods. Typography for print obviously varies.
MM

Madame Manga has it right as rain. Her thought on the elipsis is intriguing. She makes a ton of sense regarding usage relating to the real world of online versus print typography.

Congratulations and kudos from the middle of the Pacific Ocean.

 

[HawaiiBill]

Re: Re: Commas and 'Though'

"Though" is a parenthetic expression, and those need to be set off by commas.

Then:
The ellipsis question is slippery. For tidiness online, such as avoiding unwanted line breaks, I prefer no spaces and no extra periods. Typography for print obviously varies.
MM

Madame Manga has it right as rain. Her thought on the elipsis is intriguing. She makes a ton of sense regarding usage relating to the real world of online versus print typography.

Congratulations and kudos from the middle of the Pacific Ocean.

 

[A7inchPhildo]

Thanks wierd Harold and snooper,

Again sorry to cut in here. The link http://www.tc.cc.va.us/writcent/ really led me to some great sites. I already visit purdue. Snooper I am originally from Boston no such thing as a pause. [smiles] I have been trying that, I need to realy learn proper form or trust me it, will, look, like, this.

 

[snooper]

... Snooper I am originally from Boston no such thing as a pause. [smiles] I have been trying that, I need to realy learn proper form or trust me it, will, look, like, this.

Yes.
I have visited two different Bostons (Lincs and MA) and despite the different accents, the, delivery, is. Very, similar.

 

[McKenna]

.

 

[HawaiiBill]

I don't think so

I stay with 'though' being set aside with both commas.

If you read it with your ears, there must be a pause
after 'minute.' And that's one job commas do for us.

This former UPI editor disagrees with the professor.
Yes, fewer commas are being used. But this one is required.

Read again what Madame Manga wrote: "'Though' is a parenthetic expression, and those need to be set off by commas. What constitutes a parenthesis can be tricky, however. The usual definition: If the phrase could be removed without destroying the meaning of the sentence, it's a parenthesis.

"When the parenthesis is only a slight interruption to the sentence, you may be able to leave the commas out. But leave BOTH of them out if you do. Don't remove one and not the other, which is what Option B has done."

 

[McKenna]

.

 

[fifty5]

Which is right?

(A) It lasted only a minute, though, and then it stopped.

or

(B) It lasted only a minute though, and then it stopped.

I think I learned that (A) was right, but (B) looks better to me now.

---dr.M.

OK another 2 pennorth...

It seems to me (IMNSHO), that both are 'correct', but have subtly different meanings.

Version A seems to me to relate to the thread you started about "well".

", though," reads, to me, a bit like "well" in so far as it suggests a pause for (further) thought - meaning, in spite of any etymology, "hang on a moment - let me just think about that for half a second."

Unfortunately, in this context, that doesn't make sense. Instead, try, "I agree, though, maybe not 100%."

Version B seems different to me. There, the "though" seems to indicate some sort of regret - that only lasting a minute was misfortune. That interpretation doesn't lend itself to paraphrase because the alternatives I can come up with would have both commas - for instance: "It lasted only a minute, unfortunately, and then it stopped."

Nevertheless, the 'speaking' test does (to my fairly well educated, Northern English ear) support that. With "unfortunately" I would pause both before and after "unfortunately" , but I'd only pause _after_ "though".

Does it help to consider whether you'd use the comma if the sentence ended without the final section? In that case, I'd write either:

"It lasted only a minute, though..."

or

"It lasted only a minute though!"

(to emphasise the difference I perceive).

BTW, Dr., is starting these threads, then not responding to other's input, deliberate, or do you just get too bored to reply?

Any thoughts, dr_mabeuse?

Good networking,

f5

 

[InsatiableMe]

Which is right?

(A) It lasted only a minute, though, and then it stopped.

or

(B) It lasted only a minute though, and then it stopped.

I think I learned that (A) was right, but (B) looks better to me now.

In my opinion, (A) is "right". When I'm writing, I picture the words as if someone were talking. If the person were to pause while talking, I feel a comma is "needed". (And I have a habbit of using ,though a lot, both in stories and "everyday net typing".)

Also, if I were reading a book and came across a coma, I pause before reading on.

 

[carsonshepherd]

Mes amis, one doesn't choose punctuation because it "looks right", "sounds right", or is "accepted." Punctuation follows rules! If you want to learn these rules, read books, because they have editors whose job it is to point these things out. Any deviation from the rules distracts from the fictional dream, as do spelling errors, usage mistakes, etc.

A is correct.
But why not:
It lasted only a minute before it stopped.

Varying sentence structure is something I'm very harsh about with people I edit.

CS

 

[thenry]

I was always taught that the purpose of punctuation was to meter the written language as if it were spoken. A comma is a quarter stop, semi-colon a half stop, colon a three-quarter stop, period a full stop, and ellipses three stops.

As for linguists and the trumping card of "common usage," even they admit the importance of an official standard in both spoken and written forms of language. That way the most one can possibly drift in language from another is the distance of two lifetimes. Well, two lifetimes minus eighteen years or so.

The important thing about grammar, as long as it is understood, is not how it's used but whether everyone remembers how it was *supposed* to be used.

 

[Guest]

I believe that the first of your two options is correct although as another stated the second one is seen so often now many just accept it.

I was taught ...? no space, three dots, punctuation.

Elizabetht

 

[HawaiiBill]

Punctuation follows rules!
CS

And, it must. My feeling about writing and how 'harshly' I might treat a writer in editing is easier than CS, however.

My primary concern is that the writer's meaning is as clear as possible to every reader. For virtually all usage, that is a fairly straighforward process but every now and then comes a cropper.

Writing erotica may carry an extra challenge because much of it is so close to raw feelings for which there are no words. A word is a symbol of an idea, agreed, but trying to adequately express the excitement of a sexual encounter going well is beyond idea.

Rules are meant to assist in understanding. If we follow rules we hope readers are sufficiently educated or experienced in reading -- is that the same thing? -- to follow the rules in play. I got into a question mark today with a writer where I put in a semi-colon to introduce a set of phrases, some of which had commas and some didn't. As in; where red was red; but white, being a lesser color, was sometimes cream; and birds flew over the cuckoo's nest.

That doesn't fit the thought that punctuation was devised to fit printed page to the sound of speech. Semi-colons and commas are meant to assist in parsing sentences as they are written but the pauses of each -- in speech -- is very much or precisely the same.

 

[snooper]

... That doesn't fit the thought that punctuation was devised to fit printed page to the sound of speech. Semi-colons and commas are meant to assist in parsing sentences as they are written but the pauses of each -- in speech -- is very much or precisely the same.

I was taught that when reading aloud the pause time was one for a comma, two for a semi-colon, three for a full stop, and four for a new paragraph.

I promise not to drag Victor Borge into this thread.

 

[thenry]

Commas, semi-colons, etc. do serve an important role in the visually parsing of the language, but even if speaking your example from above, HBill, would there not be a greater pause between phrases than within them?

For that matter, shouldn't the list have begun with a greater pause and a full colon?

 

[carsonshepherd]

Semicolons separate individual ideas; they can be used instead of a period to avoid short choppy sentences. But short choppy sentences aren't always bad and semicolons aren't always good. Run on sentences can be great and so can sentence fragments. That's what makes writing fun. You can do whatever your good instincts (or not so good!) tell you to do... But it's good to have an editor who knows these things. Ellipses: three dots, one space? That's how I do it. A lot of good writers I know can't punctuate and use "alot" a lot. (You know who you are.) But I still love 'em.
CS

 

[HawaiiBill]

Who knows?

Commas, semi-colons, etc. do serve an important role in the visually parsing of the language, but even if speaking your example from above, HBill, would there not be a greater pause between phrases than within them?

For that matter, shouldn't the list have begun with a greater pause and a full colon?

A full colon? My doctor faints!

I'm a little too old to be drawn into this discussion because I know that for every idiosyncrasy in writing there are a dozen or a hundred or a million in speaking! So I've always been leary of the 'say it to test it' idea.

As the OED says: "3. A mode of expression peculiar to an author....
"We must not..believe that we know a language because we can successfully imitate the idiosyncracies of a few of its literary men."

Well, thenry, I don't mean thee and me! We should say it to test it because we're mature and intelligent word mavens who will have an extended finger beating time as we parse everything with our tongue...in cheek.

Ah, you noticed, CS! Ellipses are properly three dots and no spaces. In modern use, online, spaces may be useful to avoid premature line feeds, however . . . or you can just toss them in for the hell of it. But the University of Chicago Style Book won't like it. Neither will OED nor Strunk.

This handy guide, however, feels otherwise: http://ei.cs.vt.edu/~cs5014/fall.95/courseNotes/WebPages/5.TechnicalCommunication/tc_2_Usage.html
saying:
Ellipses

An ellipsis is three points: ...

Use an ellipsis to represent deleted material in a sentence. Use a space before and after an ellipsis if it occurs within a sentence.

Example: Conrad defines visualization as "a representation ... of an abstract object through spatial relationships."

Use four points for ommissions at the end of a sentence.

Example: Conrad defines visualization as "a representation of an abstract object through spatial relationships...."


In LaTeX, use \ldots to produce an ellipsis.

As good an example of throwing grammatical caution to the winds as I've ever seen. I disagree sternly on the spaces before and after in typeset copy but could care less online with electronic text. That distinction deserves some fresh looks by the learned style folks in Chicago, Oxford, Hawai`i and elsewhere.

Where were we?