Clear Cut Story of Philomath (Political Thread, Liberals running amuck)

[amicus]

I grew up and went to high school not far from Philomath, Oregon, near Corvallis and Albany. Philomath means 'love of learning', the schools began in the 1880's or thereabouts as a 'church school', with a town platted to enable a school to be built.

Nearby Corvallis, (Heart of the Valley), is the home of Oregon State University, formerly a mainly agricultural, mining and logging college.

I am late into this controversy, only recently returned to Oregon, but when I was channel surfing and saw, on Sundance/Green Channel, the title, "Clear Cut Story of Philomath, I had to listen.

I dated girls in high school in Philomath and Corvallis, and chuckles, of course Albany and Scio and Jefferson and even married a girl from Lebanon, Oregon, all nearby small towns way back then.

There is a current flap in Boulder, Colorado, noted on Fox news, about a high school forcing attendance at a school function in which invited speakers suggested drug use, casual sex, homosexual and lesbian experiences, not using condoms and rejection of traditional morality. The 'usual suspects' spreading their filth on a high school campus.

Since it was Sundance/Green, showing the film, I immediately knew the drift would be far left and it was, ridiculing religious morality and traditional ethics.

As the limpid left always does, they chose the least able to speak to support traditional moral values; I always wonder why they don't give me a call.

Anyway...I provided the key words for a search should you wish to do your own google. Also try Philomath Clemens Foundation for further information.

...and the beat goes on...

Keywords search: Clear Cut Story of Philomath

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/10006433-clear_cut/about.php

SYNOPSIS


Philomath, Oregon, is a small timber town with a very generous benefactor. The Clemens family, owing their success to the local logging industry, decided to give back to their community by offering college scholarships to all graduates of the local high school.

For more than 40 years, they provided thousands of students with free college tuition–no strings attached. As the fading lumber industry gave way to new high-tech industries, Philomath found itself in flux, with old and new ways of life dividing residents.

As one of the descendants in charge of the Clemens Foundation, Steve Lowther was determined to change what he felt was a "politically correct" (read "anti-logging") curriculum and lack of morals among students. He pressed the school board to stop the liberal bias that was allegedly overrunning the school's administration.

What unfurled was a drag-out fight–under intense national media scrutiny–involving the future of the foundation, with the students caught in the middle.

While the action takes place in Philomath, the film's ultimate strength is the way it serves as a microcosm for the vast ideological divisions within our country. Director Peter Richardson has crafted a seamless portrait of a clash of differing values. With those on both sides of the issue well represented, Clear Cut: The Story of Philomath, Oregon is a triumphant piece of filmmaking.

-- © Sundance Film Festival


***
http://www.wweek.com/story.php?story=3002


July 24th, 2002] For as long as anyone can remember, the entryway to Philomath High School was guarded by the school's mascot, the Warrior--a carved wooden Indian that represented the rough-hewn pride of an Oregon timber town. Today, however, the Warrior is imprisoned in a basement woodshop, scarred both by vandals and by a larger controversy that threatens the education of thousands of students.

Philomath is a two-stoplight logging town 93 miles south of Portland, best known for its annual Frolic & Rodeo and the greasy eggs and bacon at CD&J, one of the town's few cafes.

This is where I grew up. I can still pull in to Java Connection, the town's only drive-up espresso stand, and hear Dave, the owner, say, "Hey, gorgeous, how's the big city treatin' yah? Sugar-free English toffee latte?" McDonald's is still considered "new," monster trucks rule the road, and cowboy hats are as common as ball caps.

Behind the small-town smiles, however, Philomath is being torn apart by a $32 million legacy.

In 1959, lumber baron Rex Clemens established a foundation to pay for college for graduates of Philomath High School. The foundation pays the equivalent of Oregon State University's tuition (now around $4,000) and students may take the money to any institution they choose. The only stipulation is that recipients must have attended Philomath schools for at least eight years.

Now, however, the foundation's most powerful director, Steve Lowther, says those schools have gone soft--and says that his family's generosity is being abused.

"We sincerely want what is best for the kids, and we want them to learn right from wrong," says Lowther, Clemens' nephew. "We are taking timber dollars and giving them to kids, and basically they come back [from college] wanting to shut down the woods."

Fit and rugged at 52, Lowther graduated from PHS in 1968 and now owns a logging company and rock quarry. As the Clemens' closest living heir, he is spittin' mad about the way Philomath has drifted away from its small-town values--so mad that he is threatening to terminate the scholarships unless the Philomath School District pulls up its socks.

If Lowther carries out his threat, scores of Philomath graduates will not have the means to pay for higher education, according to student-body president Lizzie Esterderg. "There are a lot of poor families who would not be able to go to college," she says. "Everyone is worried."

Lowther's gripes begin with the wild fashions kids are wearing these days: midriff-bearing tops, low-slung jeans, shirts sporting beer logos, even dog-collars.
"Things have gone too far," says Lowther, who sports Wranglers and buttoned-down flannel shirts. "Philomath is not Portland."

To tamp down this MTV-beach-house atmosphere, Lowther proposes a strict dress code. "Why not wear white blouses and blue jeans, everybody wearing the same thing?" he asks.

More important, Lowther says, Philomath teachers are flaming environmentalists--and they're telling schoolchildren that logging harms the environment.

The last straw was the school's decision to exile the Warrior to the basement--a decision that represented exactly what Lowther is fighting against, "liberal gobbledygook" and a loss of pride in Philomath and its history.

Lowther's wrath has focused on the Philomath School District's superintendent. Terry Kneisler, 53, is a practicing Bahai with an affinity for fine clothes and fedoras, which makes him stand out among the big belt buckles on Main Street.

A Chicago import, Kneisler's efforts to honor diversity, particularly by encouraging funding for liberal-arts programs, have generated resentment among traditionalists. "It's like the Clinton administration," says Lowther. "You know something is wrong, and you can't put your finger on it. It's the same with Terry Kneisler. We want change. If Terry has got to go, he's got to go. I don't think he needs to be running the district."

***

Literotica AH is not perhaps the place to expect reason and rationality when it comes to a moral and ethical approach to education. But, as I have learned over the years, many of you folks are married and have kids in public schools.

Perhaps the far left secular humanist moral agenda is suitable for you, but perhaps not for your children?

Just a thought...


amicus...

 

[S-Des]

IThere is a current flap in Boulder, Colorado, noted on Fox news, about a high school forcing attendance at a school function in which invited speakers suggested drug use, casual sex, homosexual and lesbian experiences, not using condoms and rejection of traditional morality. The 'usual suspects' spreading their filth on a high school campus.

The funny thing about the Boulder flap is that it would have passed unnoticed (with most people believing it was typical Conservative hand-wringing), if it wasn't for technology. Someone caught it with their cell phone and actually hearing these morons speak was beyond shocking. Whether it was the guy talking about how using a condom wasn't as much fun, the comment about casual sex, or the retard who said if he had Ecstacy on him, he'd share it with someone in the audience. Nice for a High School assembly that had required attendance.

I'll be interested to check out the film sometime. There are several documentaries recently that have been worth watching. Word is, Michael Moore is getting serious buzz for his health care movie, from the Right & Left. I didn't attend a traditional college, so missed out on all the political nonsense. Every time I see video from these "open minded" people (usually consisting of name calling, threatening, and shouting down those who disagree), I'm grateful.

 

[amicus]

Thas a skinny lil gal ur avatar is pokin' there, Des, ah, well, to each is own...

I used a condom once, no more, ever again...go figure...so...maybe at least, a little truth there?

I thought, perhaps, that since about 99% of the population of the US exists outside the truly dimwitted state of Oregon, that a few might get the drift that the fucking Liberals are everywhere and one might want to be aware....if you have kids and concern yourselves about such things....

ahem

amicus...

 

[S-Des]

Thas a skinny lil gal ur avatar is pokin' there, Des, ah, well, to each is own...

I used a condom once, no more, ever again...go figure...so...maybe at least, a little truth there?

She is a bit thin (or does it just look like that because of my fat ass in the pic?), but far and away the most amazing lover I could have ever asked for. I've had my share and trust me, she leaves them all in the dust.

I never had a problem using a condom. When I was younger, it helped me last longer. Now that I'm older, I realize how lucky I was to have gone that route. It's amazing I made it through my rock & roll years without catching anything (temporary or permanent). The chances people take with disease or pregnancy just for the extra sensitivity (or because of their immense ego) is amazing. Hell, I got my ex pregnant when the doctors told her it was physically impossible (which is why we didn't use condoms in the first place). There is truth that it feels better without, but I would be happy to be a walking billboard for how drastically your life can change when you don't think you have to worry about it (my daughter's great, but my ex is the Anti-Christ).

 

[Liar]

I got that documentary yesterday on a dvd screener with a bunch of other films from a friend of mine, who distributed US indie film Europe. I was gonna watch it sometime this summer. Might crack it up earlier now.

Seems to be to be a classic situation of generation clashes and age culture contrasts. At least when we talk about the "moral values" part withthe clothes as an example.

But the real dilemma is that of politics in the class room. One that can only be seen if you try to look at it from a politically neutral point of view.

On one side, is the school teaching "leftist" ideas? And if they do, what right does teachers and a school board have to dictate a curriculum's political agenda? None, if you ask me.

On the other side, what is Lowther suggesting? What right does a school sponsor (or whatever he is) have to dictate a curriculum's political agenda to his liking? Again, none, if you ask me.

Not as clear cut an issue as it may seem.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Thas a skinny lil gal ur avatar is pokin' there, Des, ah, well, to each is own...

I know... I wish I was so thin! Sweet kitty cat... *drool* she's got a model's body...

for the record, I hate condoms. but I'd use one if I was in a position where I felt I needed to. Have a friend who hates them, and he goes to see prostitutes 5-6 times a year. He risks his life every single damned time, because he hates condoms. Russian roulette. If I was ever in a position, again, of being a non-monogamous relationship, I wouldn't hesitate to use condoms.

And thank god that's what my ex and I used as birth control (in spite of my hating them... he loved condoms... "less mess" he said) because he was fucking everything that moved, and I didn't know it. :x Who knows, maybe he was protecting me? Strange, twisted thought, that...

 

[Pure]

oh my, teaching about condoms! soon the teacher will be recruiting for al qaeda.

i wonder is ami was raised a southern baptist or where all this purity came from.

were you a virgin until marriage, ami? make any other mistakes?

 

[amicus]

I got that documentary yesterday on a dvd screener with a bunch of other films from a friend of mine, who distributed US indie film Europe. I was gonna watch it sometime this summer. Might crack it up earlier now.

Seems to be to be a classic situation of generation clashes and age culture contrasts. At least when we talk about the "moral values" part withthe clothes as an example.

But the real dilemma is that of politics in the class room. One that can only be seen if you try to look at it from a politically neutral point of view.

On one side, is the school teaching "leftist" ideas? And if they do, what right does teachers and a school board have to dictate a curriculum's political agenda? None, if you ask me.

On the other side, what is Lowther suggesting? What right does a school sponsor (or whatever he is) have to dictate a curriculum's political agenda to his liking? Again, none, if you ask me.

Not as clear cut an issue as it may seem.

~~~

I did identify this as a 'political' thread. I understand your position, I guess; were I a secular humanist or liberal or what ever tag you choose to call yourself, I would be right pleased that my thoughts and beliefs were being taught in schools and coursing through the mainstream media and entertainment world.

But I am not. I hold differing viewpoints than most.

I see a terrible conflict created by 'public' education, mandatory, forcing students to attend and supported by taxation. A 'private' school, where parent chose the curricula would create no problems in my mind as long as basic human individual rights were not violated in the classroom.

That a 'liberal' agenda is uppermost, taught everywhere is not even in question, it is simply a fact. That the left refuses to acknowledge that and struts around with a superior attitude akin to religious fervor claiming the only way to heaven, gets to me now and then.

All of you know all the items as well as I do, almost like the ten commandments:

Pro Abortion
Pro Gays
Anti Business
Pro Environment
Pre Preservation and Conservation
Pro pre marital sex
Pro forced equality
Anti corporate everything, farming, mining, logging, construction...
Pro Union Labor
Pro Socialized Medicine...

That is just ten, there are many more areas, all of which have those of us with opposing opinions who do not appreciate this agenda, this 'belief' system being forced upon us or our children.

I know that the vast majority of the 'left' believes in the above ten items as the holy grail. They, perhaps you, KNOW that you are right and reasonable and rational to advocate every one of those issues. God like in your certainty.

You look down upon conservatives, fundamentalists, the 'right' with a disdain comparable to stepping in dogshit on a sidewalk.

You seem to feel it is your 'right', a messianic obligation, to force your views upon the public at large and in general.

I did a lecture circuit of high school and colleges a few years back. I was saddened that the theology of the left has so thoroughly permeated formal education at all levels. You have those innocent students so brainwashed with the left mentality that they no longer will even listen to opposing viewpoints.

In that school in Philomath, every graduating student was offered a free tuition paid scholarship just for graduating, no other requirements at all.

It began, they say, when the 'politically correct' new hires in faculty and management of the district decided that the Philomath Warriors, was offending to Native Americans. So they changed the name to 'Philomath Cadets', retired the wooden statue of the 'warrior'.

The 'new hires' in the district began hiring 'new age' teachers, those who were anti logging, anti timber industry and anti business in general. Now Philomath, the community and the entire surrounding area was created by the logging industry, their culture is timber and land and ownership and hard, dangerous work. I know I myself logged for a few years; it is a very difficult and dangerous occupation.

Outside the Portland Metroplex, the major cities, Salem, Corvallis, Eugene are the left liberal strongholds in the State. Oregon is, or used to be, rough and tumble country, hard scrabble existence, timber, fishing, mining, agriculture and the corresponding culture.

Over the years as the culture of the State changed, I have become less and less proud of my heritage here and more ashamed and embarrassed at the political direction the State, as a whole, has taken.


Even if I have made this clear enough to understand, I realize the left cannot and will not ever acknowledge the degree to which they have changed society and continue to corrupt the youth.

amicus...

 

[MacAk]

I love corrupting the youth. What the hell is wrong with corrupting the youth? You can't cheat n honest man.

 

[Liar]

Amicus, I can't say anything about what is or is not being taught in American schools, niether public or private. But here, public schools does not teach "pro gay". They teach non discrimination, and right to privacy and freedom of choice. They don't teach "pro pre-marital sex". They teach sexual responsibility and disease prevention from a rational and realistic view on reality. They don't teach "anti business". And the only way you could say that they teach "pro environment" would be that there's a general consensus that trees and clean air and squrrels and shit is nicer than toxic waste.

I must say I'm a little confused with all the presumptions.

In my post i say two things:

1. I don't think teachers and school board should teach a political agenda. (I'm pretty sure we agree about that)
2. I don't think a sponsor like Lowther should dictate his own political agenda for the school either. (If you look at it whithout ideology goggles on, I'm sure you agree wth that too)

All in all, politics does not belong in the classroom. No more than religion. Period.

Other than of course teaching kids what politics is and how to practice it with their own opinions. Lord knows we need more people, especially young people, who understand and engage in it.

How you make that into the exact opposite of what i said, is beyond my comprehension.

I'm not a leftist. I'm a progressive liberal (REAL liberal - you know what it means) more leaning towards libertarianism than anything else. I believe it's time you get that into your head. You're not even barking up the wrong three, you're barking up a streetlight.

 

[amicus]

Hmmm...okay Liar, if you claim to be a Classic Liberal, I do understand and appreciate that position.

But if you think there is no political agenda in public education I think you are sorely misguided.

I listed the 'ten commandments' of the left; those are taught, no, preached in classrooms across the country.

Insofar as sexual orientation is concerned, I personally could care less about a persons proclivities for sexual gratification. But, I do not want my children exposed to homosexuality as a 'normative' alternative, fully acceptable in a 'tolerant' diverse society.

Nor do I want my taxes to support those who push that acceptance and tolerance in schools.

There are many who feel that abortion is a crime and that homosexuality is a sin and morally wrong, yet the schools, in general expound upon those facets of life.

anyway...thank you for the reply...

amicus

 

[Pure]

dear amicus,
did you have sex (intercourse) premaritallly?

thanks.

 

[Liar]

Hmmm...okay Liar, if you claim to be a Classic Liberal, I do understand and appreciate that position.

But if you think there is no political agenda in public education I think you are sorely misguided.

I listed the 'ten commandments' of the left; those are taught, no, preached in classrooms across the country.

Like I said, I can't comment on what's taught in your country. Just what's taught in mine.

Insofar as sexual orientation is concerned, I personally could care less about a persons proclivities for sexual gratification. But, I do not want my children exposed to homosexuality as a 'normative' alternative, fully acceptable in a 'tolerant' diverse society.

Nor do I want my taxes to support those who push that acceptance and tolerance in schools.

There are many who feel that abortion is a crime and that homosexuality is a sin and morally wrong, yet the schools, in general expound upon those facets of life.

Just because something is considered a sin and morally wrong, it doesn't mean that it's not there and that we should shove out heads in the sand about it.

School told me, in a neutral fashion, about things that exists. In science, in culture, in society, in philosophy and literature. Some of those things I regard as good things, others I regard as bad things.

Abortions exist. I was taught what an abortion is.

Homosexual people exist. I was taught what homosexuality is. As well as what it isn't, all the common scaremongering myths about it.

Religious people exists. I was taught the basis of the different world religions, so that I would understand better how those people react and reason.

Communism exists. I was taught what it is and what underlying principles it's based on. (Then I thought "Well, this kinda sucks" and chose to believe in other -isms instead.)

I was also educated on capitalism, atheism, liberalism, France, centipedes, grammar, diabetes, cubism, terrorism and geomentry. Yannow, stuff that exists and that it's a good thing to know about.

I can't say if American public schools does this in an as value neutral way as I had the privilige of experiencing. But if you don't want to educate kids about certain things because "many believe they are immoral", you're doing the same thing that you're accusing the schools of doing. Like it or not, that choice is you pushing your political agenda on children.

Yes, you have a political agenda. Everyone does.

 

[amicus]

Liar..."...Yes, you have a political agenda. Everyone does...."

Another interesting post from you...very well said at that.

You make, or assert, and interesting and rather crucial point I think, if I may paraphrase you without going back and copying.

I purport that the definition of good and evil, right and wrong, cannot be taught or presented in a 'neutral' manner; and should not not be.

Ethics and morals, I think, are inherent in the transferral of knowledge, aka, teaching.

While contemporary secular humanists do not accept absolute moral axioms, or self evident truths, I think one must, in the transferral of knowledge from one generation to the next.

Perhaps that should only be the province of parents, but so much of childhood education, with both parents working or a single parent family, is left to the 'schools' to pass on, that I think we need a closer look at what knowledge is transfered.

I think that when one teaches a new generation about Adolph Hitler, Nazism, Facism, or Joseph Stalin and the purges and Communism, I think one must present a moral and ethical judgment concerning those issues.

I think also that when we teach of capital punishment, taking a human life, or abortion, I think also, we must present that information from a moral and ethical foundation.

I think we cannot and should not leave a new generation with just the 'information' about such things as you put forth in your post.

Although we seem not to learn from history, perhaps we should?

amicus...

 

[S-Des]

Like I said, I can't comment on what's taught in your country. Just what's taught in mine.
Just because something is considered a sin and morally wrong, it doesn't mean that it's not there and that we should shove out heads in the sand about it.

School told me, in a neutral fashion, about things that exists. In science, in culture, in society, in philosophy and literature. Some of those things I regard as good things, others I regard as bad things.

Abortions exist. I was taught what an abortion is.

Homosexual people exist. I was taught what homosexuality is. As well as what it isn't, all the common scaremongering myths about it.

Religious people exists. I was taught the basis of the different world religions, so that I would understand better how those people react and reason.

Communism exists. I was taught what it is and what underlying principles it's based on. (Then I thought "Well, this kinda sucks" and chose to believe in other -isms instead.)

I was also educated on capitalism, atheism, liberalism, France, centipedes, grammar, diabetes, cubism, terrorism and geomentry. Yannow, stuff that exists and that it's a good thing to know about.

You had me until you said you were taught about France. I'm pretty sure that's considered cruel and unusual punishment here in the states.


Quick story about American schools. My nephew is a brilliant musician. He plays multiple instruments and taught himself guitar (he now resides at Berklee). He was one of the star musicians at his High School (on saxaphone) and was in the school band. He was holding down a 4.0 average and trying to get a scholarship (to supplement the money he raised by becoming a guitar teacher at a music store at 16). The policy of the band was that because they had so many performances during the year, they were allowed a certain number of excused absences. He never missed a performance, until just before the end of the year when he wanted to attend a youth group sleepover at his church. He informed the teacher in advance, who told him that he didn't consider a church activity to be a "reason to miss a performance" (despite the fact that no other student had been questioned about missing one as long as they had a parent's signature). He decided to attend anyway, to enjoy the outing and deal with the possible grade adjustment (figuring he could make it up since the syllabus said it took more than a single missed event to lower your grade from an 'A' to a 'B'.

My nephew got his report card at the end of the semester with a nice fat 'F'. When my brother (who had to be physically restrained from confronting the teacher) complained to the principle, then the school district (since the teacher didn't follow his own syllabus), he was informed that the teacher had full backing and there was nothing anyone could do. My nephew quit the band and lived with what was left of his GPA (and worked twice as hard to afford the college he wished to attend). High school and college lean quite hard to the Left in general. Personally I don't care, as long as the teacher doesn't use his or her position to force the children to listen to their agenda. I had teachers who leaned one way or the other, but they always respected their boundaries and gave us a choice. In the Boulder example, it is clear they were trying to "preach" their philosophical points of view. Not to inform, but to convince. How would you feel if a speaker your child was forced to listen to told them that condoms were lame and addictive drugs were fun (and that he'd enjoy sharing them with members of the audience, if only he had some).

Your education sounds outstanding and I'd be all for that sort of thing here. Although some people are against information being given to kids at an age they feel is too young, most are not. What bothers people is the educators taking advantage of their position to push an agenda.

 

[Liar]

I think also that when we teach of capital punishment, taking a human life, or abortion, I think also, we must present that information from a moral and ethical foundation.

Isn't that what's being done today? And that you protest against?

Ah yes, how silly of me. It's not your moral and ethical foundation.

Like you said, ethical foundation and ideologial base are best handled whithin the family. If it's handled in a public space, someone will always dictate what's right or wrong over the other.

And that is, put simply, not right. It's not right if I get to decide what's right and wrong for you and it's not right if you get to decide what's right and wrong for me.

That's the self evident truth, the only ethical foundation there is. Anything else is subjective perspective. Even though I know it's damn hard to break free from the one that one is bogged down in.

 

[amicus]

[QUOTE=Liar]Isn't that what's being done today? And that you protest against?

Ah yes, how silly of me. It's not your moral and ethical foundation.

Like you said, ethical foundation and ideologial base are best handled whithin the family. If it's handled in a public space, someone will always dictate what's right or wrong over the other.

And that is, put simply, not right. It's not right if I get to decide what's right and wrong for you and it's not right if you get to decide what's right and wrong for me.

That's the self evident truth, the only ethical foundation there is. Anything else is subjective perspective. Even though I know it's damn hard to break free from the one that one is bogged down in.[/QUOTE]


~~~

guess 'rolleyes' sarcastic, is a bit of a jab.

The part of your post I put in boldface...

This is not a confrontational query, but a question surely; are there no self evident truths you live by?

The political, unalienable rights to life,liberty and the pursuit are not self evident to you?

I suppose not many people, even the 'literati' of literotica AH, think seriously about such things, nor need they, really, for everyday life.

But I have long surmised that a 'serious' thinker, as you appear, would have observed your own philosophical underpinnings and determined an 'absolute' foundation for your knowledge and assertions?

What is your: A is A, Existence, Exists, bottom line?

amicus...

 

[Liar]

The political, unalienable rights to life,liberty and the pursuit are not self evident to you?

Well, yes. And a keystone to the right to both liberty and pursuit is that no person has mandate over another's thoughts.

Which is what unavoidably will happen with education based in "moral foundation". It will always be somebody's moral foundation. Yours, mine, Pure's, Jerry Falwell's. Somebody's.

What is your: A is A, Existence, Exists, bottom line?

The concept of Homo Deliberalis comes close. Humans are a deliberating creature. We have the ability to connect dots and form meaning out of content. It is our gift to be able to, it is our right to get to do, and it is our responsibility to actively do. To challenge that which is held to be true on the merits of being held to be true, go back to that which exists, and form meaning out of content.

 

[amicus]

[QUOTE=Liar]Well, yes. And a keystone to the right to both liberty and pursuit is that no person has mandate over another's thoughts.

Which is what unavoidably will happen with education based in "moral foundation". It will always be somebody's moral foundation. Yours, mine, Pure's, Jerry Falwell's. Somebody's.

The concept of Homo Deliberalis comes close. Humans are a deliberating creature. We have the ability to connect dots and form meaning out of content. It is our gift to be able to, it is our right to get to do, and it is our responsibility to actively do. To challenge that which is held to be true on the merits of being held to be true, go back to that which exists, and form meaning out of content.[/QUOTE]


~~~

Again, not to be confrontational, but I note you did not include 'life' in your first sentence.

Perhaps you do not acknowledge that there is an 'absolute' foundation for human moral actions? That they must all be, by definition, subjective?

But I found your last paragraph to be incomprehensible, rather an avoidance or an evasion, as 'deliberative' is rather agnostic.



amicus

 

[Liar]

Again, not to be confrontational, but I note you did not include 'life' in your first sentence.

Perhaps you do not acknowledge that there is an 'absolute' foundation for human moral actions? That they must all be, by definition, subjective?

More that it's a little bit more complex than a one-line axiom.

Right to life was not included in my sentence because it didn't relate to the current discussion, not because I disregard right to life. They are not a holy trinity. I don't have to mention all three in one breath, do I?

But I found your last paragraph to be incomprehensible, rather an avoidance or an evasion, as 'deliberative' is rather agnostic.

Lack of sleep, I blame. it's not easy explaining something that you've mulled over for years so that it's stringent and coherent for someone who haven't. I'll try and make an attempt at a later hour. But what the beef with "deliberate" is, I don't get. Ah well, I made an attempt, the point didn't get across. I can live with that.

Now the brilliant early summer weather is pestering me to go out, bask in it and ogle sun worshipping college girls on the campus lawn from behind my shades.

Til later....

 

[amicus]

Lucky you, I have just the local girls at the market to 'ogle', but they suffice.

til later

amicus