Christianity, The Jews, and Israel.

[riff]

I was thinking this yesterday listening to Jesus Christ Superstar in the car.

Many of the Jews hated Jesus because he was not a political "Messiah." Christ was about spirit. He wanted to liberate the spirit. If people cannot be free inside themselves, how in the hell are they gonna be free outside?

So Jesus tried to become the Messiah of a nation of spirit. A spirit that trancends politics by the nature of spirit.

Poor misunderstood fellow. The nailed his ass to a cross and let him die the death of a common criminal (quite fitting for a dude born in a stable).

Am I wrong when I say that Jesus had a damned good idea?

Israel bit the dust. Then come the Europeans. Christian Europeans called Crusaders. Barbarians, really, when you think of it. They wanted to save the "Holy Land."

Hitler comes and does his horrible gig.

The USA and Britain create a "homeland" for the Jewish people.

Now I am humming "Imagine" by Lennon.

Poor Jesus. What a waste. I wish he would come back and give it a second try. I don't think they got the message the first time.

 

[Black_Bird]

There is a saying among Qabalists: The Messiah will come on the day after his arrival.

It means that we will only hear the truth when we are ready to hear it.

 

[riff]

There is a saying among Qabalists: The Messiah will come on the day after his arrival.

It means that we will only hear the truth when we are ready to hear it.

BB! How are you! I was telling someone last night that I missed you! Where have you been?

 

[Rhianona]

I would also say that "hate" is too strong a word. As far as I remember (from my days in Sunday school), Jews never hated Jesus. We just don't believe he was the messiah.
~Rhi
P.S. Don't forget about the *awful* wars of religion that ran across Europe during the Early Modern Period. *shudders* Now that was awful - Christians fighting and killing Christians b/c they were not the right sect.

 

[erosman]

You know riff, I think that there is some sort of pervasive laziness in humanity. We let others digest for us the things that really matter. We are so quick to buy into what others have canonized as 'the' response. The jews did. We do. We don't seem to get a fucking clue. Life really is an inward deal.

I think if Jesus were to come on the scene right now, the Christians would crucify him this time. It's our penchant for dullness...our lack of substantive thought and analysis of the most simple schemes of life. We bury our potential in anesthetizing routine. We fucking love the intellectual comfort of a neatly compartmentalized thoughtless existence.

Can you imagine if we were to really fucking see?

 

[riff]

I would also say that "hate" is too strong a word. As far as I remember (from my days in Sunday school), Jews never hated Jesus. We just don't believe he was the messiah.
~Rhi
P.S. Don't forget about the *awful* wars of religion that ran across Europe during the Early Modern Period. *shudders* Now that was awful - Christians fighting and killing Christians b/c they were not the right sect.

I meant the jews that lived in his time.

You are Jewish? You think Jesus was a prophet and not the Messiah?

To be honest, I don't think he cares. Prophet, messiah......

Let's forget the labels. He had a great idea and he got crucified for it.

I hear ya about the idiots that call themselves Christians fighting amongst themselves. J-man said (or so the gospels say) you know a tree by it's fruit.

I want to be jesus. always have. fuck both "christianity and judeaism"

sorry, my kitty is in my lap asleep and purring like some kind of futuristic lawnmower. I don't want to disturb her.

not here to fight.... just talking

 

[riff]

You know riff, I think that there is some sort of pervasive laziness in humanity. We let others digest for us the things that really matter. We are so quick to buy into what others have canonized as 'the' response. The jews did. We do. We don't seem to get a fucking clue. Life really is an inward deal.

I think if Jesus were to come on the scene right now, the Christians would crucify him this time. It's our penchant for dullness...our lack of substantive thought and analysis of the most simple schemes of life. We bury our potential in anesthetizing routine. We fucking love the intellectual comfort of a neatly compartmentalized thoughtless existence.

Can you imagine if we were to really fucking see?

How many jesuses have died for this very reason?

And some of them died from being ignored to death.

Honest opinion? I don't think the world is worth saving. All I know is that when I die (if I see it coming) I would like to think that I loved myself and the life I chose.

 

[Rhianona]

I was speaking about the Jews in his time... Personally, I'm agnostic, but raised Jewish. *shrugs* was he a prophet? the Messiah? who knows? it depends on your level of faith.
Rhi

 

[erosman]

I agree. How many have I crucified with my narrow pride? How many have I missed and ignored - great application - because their message of hope couldn't shout down my dullness?

The world? No.

But the potential still lives in each new, individual breath, that the heart...the soul...the person will realize its path. Cervantes grasped it with his impossibly dreamlike quixote. To those who see, the choice becomes clear.

 

[Rex1960]

...
Am I wrong when I say that Jesus had a damned good idea?
...
Now I am humming "Imagine" by Lennon.
...
Poor Jesus. What a waste. I wish he would come back and give it a second try. I don't think they got the message the first time.

What message are we talking about ?

The one you can read in the "Holy Bible" written by the roman catholic church after Jesus was dead for almost 200 years ?

The one you can read in the "Book of books" the romans used to control and opress the people of there dying empire ?
(other rulers of other Empires follwed there example by using a "Holy Book" in order to reach their goals)

The one scientists are arguing about since years, if it was the message of Peter or Paul ?

The one, that is written by St.Francis of Assisi in the 13th century ?

The message that is in the "Dead Sea Scrolls" found in Qumran ?

The message that is already in the "Thorah", what christians call "Old Testament".

The message that is written in the Mosaic Laws we call
"10 Commandments"

All these messages misunderstood since ages before and after Jesus. All these "laws" that nobody followed.

But please don't get me wrong.

I don't care if it was Mose or Jesus, Martin Luther or M.L.King or even John Lennon, if there was a message it was misunderstood and nobody followed.

The Jews, the Christians, the Moslem believe in the same one God, no matter how they call Him Jahwe, Lord or Allah.
No matter how they call Jesus "Messiah", "Christ" or just one of the prophets (like moslem think of him).
No matter how the book is called "Thora", "Bible" or "Qu'ran".

I guess the message is an idealistic statement of what level to approach, what goal we should reach.

Take "Love your enemy" - hard to follow in these days...

Rex

 

[Black_Bird]

BB! How are you! I was telling someone last night that I missed you! Where have you been?

Hijacking your own thread?

I'm doing pretty good, besides some small irksome problems. I was off line for a while after the move because of some technical diffuckulties. Now I'm back... it's good to be back.

 

[Black_Bird]

Re: Re: Christianity, The Jews, and Israel.

What message are we talking about ?

Ah, to read the bible before it was edited by the Jews, Disciples, Early Christians, Early Catholics... and just about anyone else who had an agenda.

The message is simple; there's a God and you should really speak to the dude once in a while. Really. Try it. You'll be fucking amazed.

 

[YogiBare]

Riff, you ask what Jesus is to Jews?

Nothing. A false prophet.

And the inspiration of those who have persecuted us for 2000 years. Not to say that all Christians have persecuted Jews, but those who did, did so in the righteousness of Jesus' name.

Jesus has no religious significance whatsoever to Jews. It has, and never had, anything to do with politics. And it wasn't Jews who crucified Jesus. That was a myth put out by the Catholic church as a way to whip up hatred of Jews, and I believe that it was retracted by the Vatican in Vatican II. (Not sure of this - please correct me if I'm wrong.)

 

[Rex1960]

...not to say that all Christians have persecuted Jews, but those who did, did so in the righteousness of Jesus' name.

some rulers told them...
as some are telling muslims...
others telling jews....

in the name of any God, any higher goal...
the entire history is full of faked reasons and faked goals

And it wasn't Jews who crucified Jesus. That was a myth put out by the Catholic church as a way to whip up hatred of Jews, and I believe that it was retracted by the Vatican in Vatican II. (Not sure of this - please correct me if I'm wrong.)

you are absolutely right

 

[GreenEyedGirl]

Jesus had a great idea. But great ideas that shake up people's way of life are always fatal. I believe that even if Jesus were to come back, and who is to say he has not already tried that a time or two, who would listen? Would anyone really believe some person who said "I am the new messiah?" Nope. We'd lock them up and give them a nice new suit with tie-able arms. Or we'd fire bomb his compound.
If we actually did ever "see", as erosman stated, I doubt that we would be able to live with ourselves and our past actions. Besides, can you guess how people would react if Christ came back as Jewish? As Baptist? As Muslim? As Hindu?
No one would want to believe that the religion they had been following was "wrong," was anything other than "right."
We are so caught up with who is right, who is wrong. Faith has nothing to do with much else now adays.
I went to a wedding last month. A Catholic wedding. Communion was offered during the service, and the priest made an annoucement before Communion that anyone who was not Catholic was not welcome to participate in communion. I was not raised Catholic. Made me want to walk right up that aisle and chew the host in front of that priest. But then again, I am a dormant punk.
My point being that people are unwilling to see truth, because then they may have to alter their views, alter their perceptions, hell, even alter their belief systems.
I know very few people who would actually be able and willing to do this.


riff - as always - great thread! And who knows? Maybe your kitty is the new messiah. I think the selfless love animals give us has more saving power than most anything else in the world. (And I am so happy she is purring in your lap!)

 

[Rex1960]

...Would anyone really believe some person who said "I am the new messiah?"

you are right with just everything you've said.

just trying to point out, that Jesus himself
(if he ever was a really living individuum, what I doubt following several studies)
never said "I am the Messiah"...
as far as I know he was only called such by only certain people...
as far as I know he was also called "Rabbi" by other people...
(but the source is the "New Testament" and it was written in purpose... 200 and more years later...)

anyway, he was labled....

he maybe was a jewish teacher, a wise man, call him whatever...
Muslims acknowledge him as a prophet...
Hindu as an avatar...an incarnation of a God, especially Vishnu (who is believed to have taken nine lives, a tenth yet to come)

Don't we all see some coincidence...

Rex

 

[GreenEyedGirl]

Just to play Devil's Advocate (because I like to)
Do we really know what Jesus ever said? Everything that is written in the bible about him was written years, sometimes hundreds of years, after he died. And not written by Jesus' inner circle. And then those writings were edited over thousands of years by various men who wanted to adapt the Bible to fit what was needed in the time period. Change the dogma to suit their needs. Ever read the chapters that were "left out" of the Bible? Pretty radical stuff. No wonder it was striked.
So who knows what Jesus really said.

(Although I am guessing that you are right, that Jesus never really did say "I am the Messiah you've all been waiting for." But then again, he was human, so maybe he did after a really good day of healing lepers.)

 

[Rex1960]

Just to play Devil's Advocate (because I like to)

I like that ... play along...

...And not written by Jesus' inner circle....

...right... he spoke aramaic... wonder if they understood him in the Temple of Jerusalem....

... And then those writings were edited over thousands of years by various men who wanted to adapt the Bible to fit what was needed in the time period. Change the dogma to suit their needs....

... right again... over and over again...

... Ever read the chapters that were "left out" of the Bible? Pretty radical stuff. No wonder it was striked...

... the roman catholic church left out the "apocryphs"(spellcheck?)
in purpose.

So who knows what Jesus really said.

... you should know as the devils ad... lol

(Although I am guessing that you are right, that Jesus never really did say "I am the Messiah you've all been waiting for." But then again, he was human, so maybe he did after a really good day of healing lepers.)

... as i said earlier a huge amount of scientist doubt, that he was a human being.
Jesus is a summary of several ideas of how to live orderly, how to treat others.
As it came out as a religion it had to compete with others in the roman empire. In order to compete with other "Gods" and "Heroes" Jesus was built up as a result of several authors.
They told us these authors were members of the inner circle. Nothing but a lie. The New Testament was written in the 2nd and 3rd century AD.

Rex

Don't get me wrong - i still think the message behind it is ok

 

[GreenEyedGirl]

... as i said earlier a huge amount of scientist doubt, that he was a human being.
Jesus is a summary of several ideas of how to live orderly, how to treat others.
As it came out as a religion it had to compete with others in the roman empire. In order to compete with other "Gods" and "Heroes" Jesus was built up as a result of several authors.
They told us these authors were members of the inner circle. Nothing but a lie. The New Testament was written in the 2nd and 3rd century AD.
[/B]

Ah, true, there is probably little to no doubt that he really existed as written in the black book. So, Christianity is based on a lie, completely fabricated in order to compete with the various religions on the market. No wonder Christianity is such a screwed up religion. Broken into little warring bits of the same dogma, different rites.
So, we have a great idea built on lies, politics, and corruption.
Hell, sounds like organized religion to me! LOL

 

[Astro]

Just to add my own two cents to this.

THere is evidence that the man known as Jesus was a political figure and did not die on the cross.

Regardless of who or what he was we do not know what he actually said anymore. So lets take a step back and think

1) If theres no God then we lose some time praying
2) If there is a God you apparently loss your everlasting life by not believing in him
3) Your God is the only God sounds like 'Vote for me I am your only real choice' or 'I have a bigger dick than those other gods'
4) Why cant the next incarnation of Christ be female?
5) If love is founding stone of Christianity, why the Crusades, Witch Burning, Anti-semetism (sp?), and all the other crap?
6) R. Catholic communion is canabilsm by their own faith
7) Do we all know God by a different name - Allah, Christ, Isis, Bhall, Vishnu etc? One God different faces - like a Diamond
8) Satan is meant to be a fallen angel, but God created angels, so why doesnt he just blast him to dust instead of letting him corrupt his children?
9) Cancer and heart disease are nasty ways to punish your children
10) If there is a God, why go through another man/woman to talk to him?
11) If the bad guys always wear black, why do Priests?

I am sure there are lots more but I should get some real work done.