Christian Fundamentalists!

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101 View Post
Nobody should be allowed to impose their religious beliefs on anybody else, and that means fundies of any kind, including Muslim and Christian. If you can tell me an exampe of where Aetheist Fundamentlists have impose their will on anybody, I would include them.

Before doing so, however, may I point out that preventing one group from imposing their beliefs on others is not the same as imposing yours on anybody.

The obvious reply would be the USSR and Red China. These are tremendous examples of imposing their beliefs and will on others.

There is truth to that, but that was or is more of a political or economic doctrine than a religion. Besides that, I had the impression that the discussion was limited to the US.

 

[Boxlicker101]

There are several reasons.
1. Christian Fundamentalists are labeled by a liberal press that does not welcome any type of Christianity.
2. There are not many radical Christians in America but these seem to receive the greatest publicity among all Christians.
3. Fundamentalist to Christians are those who believe the Bible is the main source of information about God whereas the liberals attempt to brand fundamentalist as a narrow minded sect making up the majority of Christians. Fundamentalism is just another religious belief. Some fundamentalist can appear to be very liberal in lifestyle as compared to radical Christian.

The difference between a fundamentalist Christian using revealed knowledge -the Bible- to know about God and a more liberal approach to learning about God might be found in "natural" theology where reason, logic, and nature teaches one about God. There are combinations of fundamentalists and natural approaches to learning about God. Some people do not argue for God from a Biblical point of view but use the Bible to verify their personal belief in God.

I think most fundamentalists give the name to themselves by saying they believe in the fundamentals of the Bible, or words to that effect.

Fundies get a lot of attention because they do things such as the Phelps clan does or things like blowing up Planned Parenthood clinics or murdering those who disagree with them. Most Christians just live and let live and get their names in the newspapers only when they are born, get married and die.

 

[wmrs2]

I think most fundamentalists give the name to themselves by saying they believe in the fundamentals of the Bible, or words to that effect.

Fundies get a lot of attention because they do things such as the Phelps clan does or things like blowing up Planned Parenthood clinics or murdering those who disagree with them. Most Christians just live and let live and get their names in the newspapers only when they are born, get married and die.

Let's see now. Most fundamentalists ... believe in the fundamentals of the Bible. This is a very acceptable opinion.

Fundies get a lot of attention because they....like blowing up Planned Parenthood clinics or murdering those who disagree with them Most Christians we know do not do any such things. This is not an acceptable conclusion. Especially is this not true based on your next statement.

Most Christians just live and let live and get their names in the newspapers only when they are born, get married and die.

Would you care to clear this up for us, please.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
I think most fundamentalists give the name to themselves by saying they believe in the fundamentals of the Bible, or words to that effect.

Fundies get a lot of attention because they do things such as the Phelps clan does or things like blowing up Planned Parenthood clinics or murdering those who disagree with them. Most Christians just live and let live and get their names in the newspapers only when they are born, get married and die.

Let's see now. Most fundamentalists ... believe in the fundamentals of the Bible. This is a very acceptable opinion.

Fundies get a lot of attention because theydo things such as the Phelps clan does or things....like blowing up Planned Parenthood clinics or murdering those who disagree with them Most Christians we know do not do any such things. This is not an acceptable conclusion. Especially is this not true based on your next statement.

Most Christians just live and let live and get their names in the newspapers only when they are born, get married and die.

Would you care to clear this up for us, please.

First, I have to wonder why you deleted part of my post, and then copied it on your post. So anybody will know what I actually said, I put the deleted part back in, but in red, so it will stand out.

As I said, there are a few extremists, such as the members of those I refer to as "The Phelps clan" who go about loudly picketing funerals of US Military who were killed in action, and praising the weapons that were used to kill them. Their given reason for doing this is because laws against homosexuality are being repealed. These people say they are Christian fundamentalists, and they are among the most hated people in the country. There have been threads about them on thus forum, and you or somebody can look them up if you wish.

As for blowing up clinics and murdering people involved in abortions, those people are also well known. Some of them are in prison now, hopefully never to be released. They are also Christian fundamentalists, or say they are, and their reasons are to prevent abortions, or to make them hard to get. There have been threads about these people also.

However, most Christians, fundamentalist or not, do not do such things, and condemn those who do. They might picket Planned Parenthood or campaign against gay marriage, or otherwise make their views known, but they do so peacefully. Although I disagree with them, I respect their right to make themselves heard.

Such peaceful Christians tend to stay out of trouble and not be publicized in the news media, so their names appear only in the vital statistics section of the local newspapers when they are born, when they get marriage licenses and when they die.

Okay. Anything else I can help you with?

 

[wmrs2]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
I think most fundamentalists give the name to themselves by saying they believe in the fundamentals of the Bible, or words to that effect.

Fundies get a lot of attention because they do things such as the Phelps clan does or things like blowing up Planned Parenthood clinics or murdering those who disagree with them. Most Christians just live and let live and get their names in the newspapers only when they are born, get married and die.




First, I have to wonder why you deleted part of my post, and then copied it on your post. So anybody will know what I actually said, I put the deleted part back in, but in red, so it will stand out.

As I said, there are a few extremists, such as the members of those I refer to as "The Phelps clan" who go about loudly picketing funerals of US Military who were killed in action, and praising the weapons that were used to kill them. Their given reason for doing this is because laws against homosexuality are being repealed. These people say they are Christian fundamentalists, and they are among the most hated people in the country. There have been threads about them on thus forum, and you or somebody can look them up if you wish.

As for blowing up clinics and murdering people involved in abortions, those people are also well known. Some of them are in prison now, hopefully never to be released. They are also Christian fundamentalists, or say they are, and their reasons are to prevent abortions, or to make them hard to get. There have been threads about these people also.

However, most Christians, fundamentalist or not, do not do such things, and condemn those who do. They might picket Planned Parenthood or campaign against gay marriage, or otherwise make their views known, but they do so peacefully. Although I disagree with them, I respect their right to make themselves heard.

Such peaceful Christians tend to stay out of trouble and not be publicized in the news media, so their names appear only in the vital statistics section of the local newspapers when they are born, when they get marriage licenses and when they die.

Okay. Anything else I can help you with?

I meant no harm with the deletion. Simply, I know nothing about the Phelps clan so I avoided it and it was only an example you gave. I hope not to have changed the meaning of your statement.

 

[DesertPirate]

The Phelps clan is the group that does the sick and despicable protests at Military Funerals and is not in any way related to anything "Christian".

 

[cloudy]

The Phelps clan is the group that does the sick and despicable protests at Military Funerals and is not in any way related to anything "Christian".

They're no nastier than you are, and you claim Christianity as yours, too.

 

[amicus]

Ah, dear Cloudy, I called out for you last night...but found a former girl friend of one of my sons, a member of the Siletz tribe over on the coast; looking for a place or someone to purchase cigarettes without tax and the Rez is da place they tell me.

Speaking of Fundamentalists, would you not qualify as a Native American Fundamentalist? Extreme is still blaming Europeans for stealing your land and culture?

I rather think extremes, call em Fundies if you wish, are a good thing, even the far left liberal fascists I love to goad, they are necessary little devils just to keep us honest.

Big smiles.

ami

 

[alaskabibear]

Hello, BentSecrets, saw your posts here and there, thought to welcome you, then pinch your hiney.

The late Senator Barry Goldwater, Presidential candidate in the 60's said, "Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."

It is opinions at each end of the spectrum of ideas that create the, 'middle', somewhat a thesis, anti thesis and synthesis, scenario.

I consider those standing in the middle of the road as 'road kill', as they pick and choose that which satisfies their momentary appetite and virtually make no choices of their own.

Without the extremes, there would be no middle.

Be careful what you wish for.



amicus...

I'm going to touch on this one below...

I think most of us, maybe even everybody on this forum would say the same thing. People are entitled to believe what they want; there is no such thing as thought crime.

However, when they try to impose those beliefs on others, try to legislate them, try to force people to do as they say, that's when the animosity, even the hate, arises. If the Phelps lunatics want to sit in their church and rail against godless queers and praise booby traps, that is their right. However, when they interfere with other people's rights, they overstep the boundaries.

Nobody should be allowed to impose their religious beliefs on anybody else, and that means fundies of any kind, including Muslim and Christian. If you can tell me an exampe of where Aetheist Fundamentlists have impose their will on anybody, I would include them.

Before doing so, however, may I point out that preventing one group from imposing their beliefs on others is not the same as imposing yours on anybody.

It has already been pointed out above that the formal beliefs of Communism in both the former USSR and in The Peoples Republic of China do in fact impose their atheistic will on others. I think we are all wise enough in regard to human nature to understand that whenever the power shifts to any particular group, then it is that groups beliefs that are "forced" upon the weaker minority. Should Atheism ever become the predominant "belief" of the power center in this country then you can rest assured that those "beliefs" will eventually be forced upon others.

BentSecrets....thank you, a very cogent reply as far as it goes....however...))

Imagine a faith the prosyletizes its beliefs on a continual basis in all forms of public communications.

This faith includes contraception being taught in schools at all levels; it also includes making abortion clinics available to high school students without advising the parent(s). They further insist on accepting same sex relationships on an equal basis as hetero and force children to accept this as 'knowledge'.

The biggest stars and the biggest movies, as a matter of course, portray business and industry as evil, "Erin Brockovich" Julia Roberts, "The Pelican Brief", it is difficult to name a motion picture that does not portray Capitalism, the free market economy and war as 'evil'. Through the ACLU, they reflect an open 'agnosticism' and a closet anti religious nature to all aspects of Christianity.

If there is a 'bad guy' in International affairs, it is always the United States that takes the fall.

I name modern, social, progressive Liberalism as the most extreme of all faiths who do indeed, 'force their faith down your throat at all levels'.

Tell me I am in error?

Amicus...

I suggest that you are in error. Several posts up you said that "without extremes there would be no middle"...and that you consider those who are in the middle as road kill. And by your own words you agree that there are two extremes - and by definition, these extremes must be equal in their "extremity" in order for there to be a middle point at all. That further implies that you cannot have one of the extremes become the "most extreme" - the extremes are equal in "intensity" just opposite in direction. Therefore you are in error to say that "progressive liberalism" is the most extreme of all faiths - for by definition, there is an equal, but opposite extreme faith that could be called "regressive conservatism".

In fact, with most things in this experience we call life there are opposing viewpoints and opinions. These viewpoints and opinions, as well as the people who hold them, most often form themselves into a wonderfully distributed pattern sometimes referred to as a "normal" curve. At either end of this curve are the "extremes" - or if you will the "fundamentalists'. (although as has been said already, that term has evolved to mean much more than when originally coined - but that's not really important here). While in the middle are the "road kill", or as I would say the non-extremist, or rational person.

Several different "extremes" or "fundamentalist ideas" have been discussed here ranging from religion, economic theories, sexuality and politics. In each of these, and in most any other that can be imagined, there will be "extremes in belief" - or if you will, radical fundamentalism.

To bring all this to focus on the original question; Christian Fundamentalism, (e.g. or a strongly held belief that one's own "extremist" understanding and ideas are the only fundamental truth) becomes annoying to the "road kill" folks in the middle only when those beliefs begin to encroach on their own enjoyment of life and pursuit of happiness. And while "fundamentalist" are annoying and can be dangerous at times, the truth is that the very fact that they are always a minority guarantees that they will eventually be removed by the "road kill" majority.

Now this is not meant to imply that perhaps some "fundamentalist extremists" aren't correct in their beliefs - it just means they will fade away UNLESS they can persuade others to believe as they do. But then the minute the "extremist" gains his victory by persuading the masses, alas he becomes the middle - doomed to be "road kill" in the eyes of the new extremists on either flank.....oh how life can become such a folly....so I suppose one lesson could be that "extremist fundamentalists" of whatever flavor should beware their proselytizing lest they succeed and become road kill...

Fundamentalist anything is a pejorative in many places, in America and not. It implies unwavering dogma and a naivete peculiar to what is ascribed to that dogma. Fundamentalism also implies political activism in the same vein of their naivete.

I liked that definition!

To me the above statement is very telling. If non fundamentalist find fundamentalist threatening to non belief system, the question that follows is why. The non belief system should not be threatened by a God system that does not exist. The non belief system does not exist in a vacuum but accompanying it is a non logic system where there is no stable premise for deduction. Without a belief system, especially void of eternal truths like self-evident truths, there can be no reasoning. Just thinking anything that pops in your mind can not be considered logical reasoning. There must be a premise.

Fundamentalists have a premise and this is the fact that threatens non believers. Sometimes it takes a lot of deductions to arrive at a moral principle or scientific law. No matter how many times an apple hits an unbeliever in the head, he can not deduce an eternal, universal. self-evident law of gravity. No faith system = no logic system. The non believing system can not even attest to man's existence without the acceptance of universal law. If a non believer did not actually believe in universal law, he would never venture to walk across the street. That is why the non believer is threatened. Correct logic will do that each and every time. The feeling of being threatened comes from the threat that the universal does exist, not from fundamentalism.

I liked that too! Not fully developed, but who can fully explain something on a web forum that would require a book to do justice to. Good point though.

Ah, dear Cloudy, I called out for you last night...but found a former girl friend of one of my sons, a member of the Siletz tribe over on the coast; looking for a place or someone to purchase cigarettes without tax and the Rez is da place they tell me.

Speaking of Fundamentalists, would you not qualify as a Native American Fundamentalist? Extreme is still blaming Europeans for stealing your land and culture?

I rather think extremes, call em Fundies if you wish, are a good thing, even the far left liberal fascists I love to goad, they are necessary little devils just to keep us honest.

Big smiles.

ami

See, I think we see this in a similar light - Fundamentalists = Extremists. Although I see them all as an annoyance and a bane and you see them as the foundation of society....anyway, for my part I think I'll just lay down in the middle of the road and hope not to become "road kill" at the hand of some crazed "extremist"... I just ask all "extremist fundamentalists"; please don't squish me until I come to my own inevitable end in peace.

And I'm not so sure you haven't painted yourself with your own brush... I've noticed in many of your comments how distraught and concerned you are that the American society is not what it was in the 1950's and 60's... that the whole country is going to hell in a hand basket, so to speak. You almost always begin the history of the American experience around the time of the founding of the USA and often harken back to the good 'ole days when all was good and the Beaver and Wally were alive and well.

But how can Cloudy be called a Fundamentalist for looking back in nostalgic desire to a time of peace and prosperity for her people if you're not the same? It cannot be both, either she is and you are...or you aren't and neither is she...

 

[The_Trouvere]

God v. mammon

I study and respect each of the great religions. I love Christianity in all of its diversity. I do not criticize the Republican Party for pandering to the religious right. I criticize the religious right for contributing to Republican electoral victories, and getting nothing in return but rhetorical support.

In Matthew 6:24 Jesus said, "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

In Luke 16:13 He said, "No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

 

[amicus]

alaskabibear
Really Really Experienced

Well, hello, I do not recall seeing your screen name before so I will welcome you and commend you for a long, interesting and challenging collection of thoughts and conclusions.

As you might suspect, I use gross exaggeration from time to time in an attempt to make a point, rather like make-up for an actor on a stage.

While I do indeed conclude that the extremes in thought are necessary to expand the envelope of knowledge and even social behaviors, the concept of the, 'road kill', in the center is just a metaphor for either middle of the road or even normative behavior as the vast middle is subject to being swayed in eithr direction depending upon the efficacy of the prosyletizers at each pole.

If you follow more or other threads or comments I have made you will note that human individual freedom is the foundation upon which all my values and virtues are based. You may also discover that I posit that a rational moral system, not based on religion exists and can be comprehended with just a little logical and focused effort.

T'is a big and wonderful world Mr. Alaskabear and constantly changing but the fun part is that we humans effect those changes by our choices and actions.

A Pleasure to make your acquaintance...

amicus.