Chivalry..Dead or Alive?

[Pervy_Sage]

I think it is out there.

However, I think men are afraid to be chivalrous because they think that women don't want that. The whole being equal thing has prevented it.

I on the other hand will allow any man to open my door, pull out my chair, or even order for me ...

I'm not afraid to be a woman and let the man be a man.

*nods*

I was about to say this exact thing. Thank you, MsTexas. It's not about controlling anything. It's just about showing a woman how special she is. I'm an imperfect gentleman, but I always strive for chivalrous actions.

 

[RedHairedandFriendly]

Older men are more chivalric than the younger generation that is being introduced into society. It's rare for a young man to hold a door open for a woman who is walking toward a door, whether he is with that woman, or if they just happen to get to the door at the same time.

I'm teaching my son to be chivalrous. He's now twelve and I admit, I sometimes have to remind him that his job is to open the door for the woman, yes even his sisters, if he gets to the door before his dad.

I'm also old school - the man should pay for the first date, and all dates after that unless the woman specifically tells him "it's my treat". I have sadly though taught my daughters to always have funds available on a date, because again men don't always expect to pay, but assume you're going Dutch.

Chivalry will not become common place again, unless men and women decide that showing manners doesn't mean you're weak or any less than a man/woman. It just means you're a nice person.

 

[Pervy_Sage]

Older men are more chivalric than the younger generation that is being introduced into society. It's rare for a young man to hold a door open for a woman who is walking toward a door, whether he is with that woman, or if they just happen to get to the door at the same time.

I'm teaching my son to be chivalrous. He's now twelve and I admit, I sometimes have to remind him that his job is to open the door for the woman, yes even his sisters, if he gets to the door before his dad.

I'm also old school - the man should pay for the first date, and all dates after that unless the woman specifically tells him "it's my treat". I have sadly though taught my daughters to always have funds available on a date, because again men don't always expect to pay, but assume you're going Dutch.

Chivalry will not become common place again, unless men and women decide that showing manners doesn't mean you're weak or any less than a man/woman. It just means you're a nice person.

Well said, agreed, ditto, and thank you very much!

 

[RedHairedandFriendly]

Well said, agreed, ditto, and thank you very much!

 

[Pervy_Sage]

Back at ya, madame. x12

 

[MsTexas]

I was about to say this exact thing. Thank you, MsTexas. It's not about controlling anything. It's just about showing a woman how special she is. I'm an imperfect gentleman, but I always strive for chivalrous actions.

Thanks, but as you know Red said it better ...

Older men are more chivalric than the younger generation that is being introduced into society. It's rare for a young man to hold a door open for a woman who is walking toward a door, whether he is with that woman, or if they just happen to get to the door at the same time.

I'm teaching my son to be chivalrous. He's now twelve and I admit, I sometimes have to remind him that his job is to open the door for the woman, yes even his sisters, if he gets to the door before his dad.

I'm also old school - the man should pay for the first date, and all dates after that unless the woman specifically tells him "it's my treat". I have sadly though taught my daughters to always have funds available on a date, because again men don't always expect to pay, but assume you're going Dutch.

Chivalry will not become common place again, unless men and women decide that showing manners doesn't mean you're weak or any less than a man/woman. It just means you're a nice person.

Perfect, Red, Just Perfect!!!

 

[RedHairedandFriendly]

Thanks, but as you know Red said it better ...





Perfect, Red, Just Perfect!!!

Pfft. I did not say it better. I'm just more wordy. Hell I had to delete a bunch of stuff too.

 

[LilyPru]

For me, I'm much more concerned about manners in general than capital C chivalry. I think the problem is that kids aren't taught to be respectful of people around them in general.

If I reach a door first, I would hold it for whomever is behind me, male or female. I hope they would appreciate it, as I would if they did it for me.

Respectfully, I think that teaching male and female children two different standards of manners is a bit odd. Rather than holding our sons to a higher standard, I would suggest just teaching all children to be mindful and generous to each other, and how to graciously accept a compliment, a paid for dinner or a held door? Gender dynamics are fucked up enough in this day and age, why pile on by teaching our girls to sit on a pedestal (and teaching our boys how to keep them there)?

 

[lakesailer_mi]

Older men are more chivalric than the younger generation that is being introduced into society. It's rare for a young man to hold a door open for a woman who is walking toward a door, whether he is with that woman, or if they just happen to get to the door at the same time.

I'm teaching my son to be chivalrous. He's now twelve and I admit, I sometimes have to remind him that his job is to open the door for the woman, yes even his sisters, if he gets to the door before his dad.

I'm also old school - the man should pay for the first date, and all dates after that unless the woman specifically tells him "it's my treat". I have sadly though taught my daughters to always have funds available on a date, because again men don't always expect to pay, but assume you're going Dutch.

Chivalry will not become common place again, unless men and women decide that showing manners doesn't mean you're weak or any less than a man/woman. It just means you're a nice person.

For me, I'm much more concerned about manners in general than capital C chivalry. I think the problem is that kids aren't taught to be respectful of people around them in general.

If I reach a door first, I would hold it for whomever is behind me, male or female. I hope they would appreciate it, as I would if they did it for me.

Respectfully, I think that teaching male and female children two different standards of manners is a bit odd. Rather than holding our sons to a higher standard, I would suggest just teaching all children to be mindful and generous to each other, and how to graciously accept a compliment, a paid for dinner or a held door? Gender dynamics are fucked up enough in this day and age, why pile on by teaching our girls to sit on a pedestal (and teaching our boys how to keep them there)?

I have been told I have good manners - at least in some settings (I can be an asshole in others).

I think you both make excellent points. I tend to side more with Lilly here, but there is a part of me that likes the idea that men take care of women and put them up on a pedestal.

Most importantly, I think treating others with respect all the time is crucial. Holding a door is a great example, for anyone: male, female, older, younger you name it. I do it (mostly) without regard to gender or anything.

Where I think real problems occur though is in places like lines. People cutting in. Cheating to get in front, etc. It's an attitude of "I'm more important than everyone" and that attitude is the problem.

I try to set an example for my kids of service to others. This doesn't mean being a doormat, but it does mean thinking of others.

 

[Pervy_Sage]

I also agree with Lily as well. I just question the fact that chivalry is putting a woman up on a pedestal. I mean, me opening a door or paying for dinner is not me wanting anything in return, or worshiping the woman as a goddess. It's just doing what I think is right.

 

[RedHairedandFriendly]

For me, I'm much more concerned about manners in general than capital C chivalry. I think the problem is that kids aren't taught to be respectful of people around them in general.

If I reach a door first, I would hold it for whomever is behind me, male or female. I hope they would appreciate it, as I would if they did it for me.

Respectfully, I think that teaching male and female children two different standards of manners is a bit odd. Rather than holding our sons to a higher standard, I would suggest just teaching all children to be mindful and generous to each other, and how to graciously accept a compliment, a paid for dinner or a held door? Gender dynamics are fucked up enough in this day and age, why pile on by teaching our girls to sit on a pedestal (and teaching our boys how to keep them there)?

All my kids, as well as myself and my spouse hold the door open for either gender does it count as being chivalrous or polite. It's both I guess. My daughters aren't held on a pedestal, believe me no one in this family puts them there, especially their brother.

Both genders should behave as you write, and if they are taught to they will. But I still believe my son should make the first move to do some of the things I mentioned. My girls would do these things too without hesitation and have quite often.

I have been told I have good manners - at least in some settings (I can be an asshole in others).

I think you both make excellent points. I tend to side more with Lilly here, but there is a part of me that likes the idea that men take care of women and put them up on a pedestal.

Most importantly, I think treating others with respect all the time is crucial. Holding a door is a great example, for anyone: male, female, older, younger you name it. I do it (mostly) without regard to gender or anything.

Where I think real problems occur though is in places like lines. People cutting in. Cheating to get in front, etc. It's an attitude of "I'm more important than everyone" and that attitude is the problem.

I try to set an example for my kids of service to others. This doesn't mean being a doormat, but it does mean thinking of others.

Well said.

I also agree with Lily as well. I just question the fact that chivalry is putting a woman up on a pedestal. I mean, me opening a door or paying for dinner is not me wanting anything in return, or worshiping the woman as a goddess. It's just doing what I think is right.

I guess one has to decide what is chivalry and how does it contrast with general manners?

Eons ago in books and movies it was laying the coat down over a mud puddle so the woman wouldn't soil her shoes. The woman wasn't necessarily placed higher than the man, but in that instance her needs were.

Whether it be chivalry or manners, sadly it is being lost on both genders these days.

 

[Deprived_in_AZ]

And sometimes it's there but not really.

One time this very dear male friend held the door open for me and let me walk through first, when I thanked him for being gentlemanly he said, au contraire, he doesn't really do it to be polite, rather it gives him a chance to check out women's butts.

Cheeky monkey!

 

[lakesailer_mi]

Whether it be chivalry or manners, sadly it is being lost on both genders these days.

THAT is definitely true.

I find people today can be incredibly rude to each other, often in the name of "I have to take care of myself" or "it's not my problem" or "I'm too important."

Cell phones manners are a huge issue. First and foremost, people think they must answer them. You can be in the middle of a conversation with someone and they will stop and answer their phone. No! I'm here! Right now!
I know people have done this with phones for a long time, the ubiquitessness (sp?) of cell phones makes it incredible.

But it's not just that. There are myriad other examples. I think it stems from information overload. We can no longer parse what information is important and what isn't, and we are overloaded. So we ignore much because we can't handle it anymore. I think it's also that kids don't spend time with their parents. Nothing causes you to teach your kid manners than if you have to spend a lot time with them. When we dump our kids on overworked child care providers and teachers who don't have time for manners because the next standardized test is coming up (yet another case of information diarrhea), they don't learn manners. Then we only spend a little time with them, and we want it to be "quality time" and so we avoid correcting their behavior so as not to have a fight/tears whatever.

*steps off soapbox...saying...shit...I should go home to my kids...*

 

[RedHairedandFriendly]

And sometimes it's there but not really.

One time this very dear male friend held the door open for me and let me walk through first, when I thanked him for being gentlemanly he said, au contraire, he doesn't really do it to be polite, rather it gives him a chance to check out women's butts.

Cheeky monkey!

*chuckles* This true is very, very true.

 

[lakesailer_mi]

And sometimes it's there but not really.

One time this very dear male friend held the door open for me and let me walk through first, when I thanked him for being gentlemanly he said, au contraire, he doesn't really do it to be polite, rather it gives him a chance to check out women's butts.

Cheeky monkey!

He told!!!????? That's it...he's out of the man club....that was supposed to be one of our closely guarded secrets...CRAP...

(is there a way I can delete your post...we can't let this get out!)

 

[LilyPru]

I guess one has to decide what is chivalry and how does it contrast with general manners?

To me, chivalry is men being courteous to women for no other reason than they are women, rooted in an antiquated notion that the female is weaker and requires more care.

Good manners is people being courteous to each other regardless of impersonal, external factors such as gender.

 

[Deprived_in_AZ]

He told!!!????? That's it...he's out of the man club....that was supposed to be one of our closely guarded secrets...CRAP...

(is there a way I can delete your post...we can't let this get out!)

Teeheeeeee...... yep he squealed. And my post will go on and become history and be taught to women everywhere!

 

[janeyl]

The civalric code is, as I understand it, a Victorian romanticism of certain, almost certainly fallacious, medieval standards of behaviour of a certain class of individual. It's generally an utterly false concept based around romantic and chaste ideals of love and courtship that never actually existed...marriage was usually an arrangement between families in order to preserve power and position, women of all classes were chattels and treated as possessions with no rights of inheritance or ability to have any say in their future or lives..***** was brutal and short even amongst those purported to uphold such a code especially if you were of a different class, slavery in the form of serfdom meant that there was a very privleged and inbred elite. It described a kind of "courtly love" that was very unlikely to have ever existed except in the novels of Sir Walter Scott and his ilk...Ivanhoe has a lot to answer for...

The cloak on the puddle was something that Sir Walter Raleigh did as a gesture of his adoration of Queen Elizabeth the first and probably again, almost certainly fictitious...he did far more brutal and shocking things to show her his love and loyalty and added to her vast and enormous wealth-it was of a completely different era

So, does chivalry still exist? The question should probably be...did it ever?

 

[RedHairedandFriendly]

THAT is definitely true.

I find people today can be incredibly rude to each other, often in the name of "I have to take care of myself" or "it's not my problem" or "I'm too important."

Cell phones manners are a huge issue. First and foremost, people think they must answer them. You can be in the middle of a conversation with someone and they will stop and answer their phone. No! I'm here! Right now!
I know people have done this with phones for a long time, the ubiquitessness (sp?) of cell phones makes it incredible.

But it's not just that. There are myriad other examples. I think it stems from information overload. We can no longer parse what information is important and what isn't, and we are overloaded. So we ignore much because we can't handle it anymore. I think it's also that kids don't spend time with their parents. Nothing causes you to teach your kid manners than if you have to spend a lot time with them. When we dump our kids on overworked child care providers and teachers who don't have time for manners because the next standardized test is coming up (yet another case of information diarrhea), they don't learn manners. Then we only spend a little time with them, and we want it to be "quality time" and so we avoid correcting their behavior so as not to have a fight/tears whatever.

*steps off soapbox...saying...shit...I should go home to my kids...*

The first time one of my daughter's boyfriend (now her ex) pulled out his cell phone in the middle of a conversation with me, I was stunned. So much so I was at a loss for words (a shocker - I know). The next time he attempted it. I said if that is not your parents you had better not answer that while conversing with me.

Another friend brought her iPhone to dinner with us. I waited till she finished her text, before telling her that she had to put it away, it wasn't allowed at the table. She said it was her dad. I allowed it. I caught her again, watching for several minutes, and then told her. "I know you love your dad, but I'm not stupid, put it away because no 17 year old wants to spend that much time texting their Father." She blushed, put the phone away and that was the end of it.

My kids don't have cell phones. I'm so mean. lol They aren't even allowed to bring books to the restaurant to read while we wait for our food to be served. We're there as a family unit, to be with each other, and at no time do I feel they are suffering. I think they are all more mature than most of their friends and I know that they will all accomplish great things because I've not allowed them to step all over people to get what they desire, they work for it, and show compassion to others.

 

[bearbottoms]

So, I like to think that I'm chivalrous...but is chivalry dead?

Honestly, there is a bit of sexism in the concept of chivalry. I show the same courtesies of chivalry to everyone, regardless of gender. (Yes, I will open a door for men) Good manners and courtesy are rare, but welcome.

 

[RedHairedandFriendly]

To me, chivalry is men being courteous to women for no other reason than they are women, rooted in an antiquated notion that the female is weaker and requires more care.

Good manners is people being courteous to each other regardless of impersonal, external factors such as gender.

I don't believe all men who behave chivalrously believe women are weaker. Again maybe they are just being courteous, it's word of choice perhaps.

The civalric code is, as I understand it, a Victorian romanticism of certain, almost certainly fallacious, medieval standards of behaviour of a certain class of individual. It's generally an utterly false concept based around romantic and chaste ideals of love and courtship that never actually existed...marriage was usually an arrangement between families in order to preserve power and position, women of all classes were chattels and treated as possessions with no rights of inheritance or ability to have any say in their future or lives..***** was brutal and short even amongst those purported to uphold such a code especially if you were of a different class, slavery in the form of serfdom meant that there was a very privleged and inbred elite. It described a kind of "courtly love" that was very unlikely to have ever existed except in the novels of Sir Walter Scott and his ilk...Ivanhoe has a lot to answer for...

The cloak on the puddle was something that Sir Walter Raleigh did as a gesture of his adoration of Queen Elizabeth the first and probably again, almost certainly fictitious...he did far more brutal and shocking things to show her his love and loyalty and added to her vast and enormous wealth-it was of a completely different era

So, does chivalry still exist? The question should probably be...did it ever?

Another good question that would most likely begin a whole new topic of discussion. lol

 

[TheAnimalWithin]

It's alive, and more rare than it used to be, but still easy to find....IF you know where to look. A bit of exploration into the actual term will help; I think this thread should really be titled "Are good manners dead" or "Gentlemanly Behavior: Dead or Alive," when the following passages are taken into consideration (I chose what sections to bold):

Chivalry is a term related to the medieval (Middle Ages) institution of knighthood which has an aristocratic military origin of individual training and service to others. Chivalry was also the term used to refer to a group of mounted men-at-arms as well as to martial valour.

Origins in military ethos

Regardless of the diverse written definitions of chivalry, the medieval knightly class was adept at the art of war, trained in fighting in armor, with horses, lances, swords and shields. Knights were taught to excel in the arms, to show courage, to be gallant, loyal and to swear off cowardice and baseness.

Related to chivalry was the practice of heraldry and its elaborate rules of displaying coats of arms. When not fighting, chivalric knights typically resided in a castle or fortified house, while some knights lived in the courts of kings, dukes and other great lords. The skills of the knight carried over to peacetime activities such as the hunt and tournament.

Christianity had a modifying influence on the classical concept of heroism and virtue, nowadays identified with the virtues of chivalry. The Peace and Truce of God in the 10th century was one such example, with limits placed on knights to protect and honor the weaker members of society and also help the church maintain peace. At the same time the church became more tolerant of war in the defense of faith, espousing theories of the just war; and liturgies were introduced which blessed a knight's sword, and a bath of chivalric purification.The first noted support for chivalric vocation, or the establishment of knightly class to ensure the sanctity and legitimacy of Christianity was written in 930 by Odo, abbot of Cluny in the Vita of St. Gerald of Aurillac, which argued that the sanctity of Christ and Christian doctrine can be demonstrated through the legitimate unsheathing of the “sword against the enemy.” In the 11th century the concept of a "knight of Christ" (miles Christi) gained currency in France, Spain and Italy. These concepts of "religious chivalry" were further elaborated in the era of the Crusades, with the Crusades themselves often being seen as a chivalrous enterprise. Their ideas of chivalry were also further influenced by Saladin, who was viewed as a chivalrous knight by medieval Christian writers.

From the 12th century onward chivalry came to be understood as a moral, religious and social code of knightly conduct. The particulars of the code varied, but codes would emphasize the virtues of courage, honor, and service. Chivalry also came to refer to an idealization of the life and manners of the knight at home in his castle and with his court.

Medieval courtly literature glorifies the valor, tactics and ideals of ancient Romans. For example the ancient hand-book of warfare written by Vegetius called De Re Militari was translated into French in the 13th century as L'art de chevalerie by Jean de Meun. Later writers also drew from Vegetius such as Honore Bonet who wrote the 14th century L'arbes des batailles, which discussed the morals and laws of war. In the 15th century Christine de Pizan combined themes from Vegetius, Bonet and Frontinus in Livre des faits d'armes et de chevalerie.

In the later Middle Ages, wealthy merchants strove to adopt chivalric attitudes - the sons of the bourgeoisie were educated at aristocratic courts where they were trained in the manners of the knightly class. This was a democratization of chivalry, leading to a new genre called the courtesy book, which were guides to the behavior of "gentlemen". Thus, the post-medieval gentlemanly code of the value of a man's honor, respect for women, and a concern for those less fortunate, is directly derived from earlier ideals of chivalry and historical forces which created it.

The medieval development of chivalry, with the concept of the honor of a lady and the ensuing knightly devotion to it, not only derived from the thinking about the Virgin Mary, but also contributed to it. The medieval veneration of the Virgin Mary was contrasted by the fact that ordinary women, especially those outside aristocratic circles, were looked down upon. Although women were at times viewed as the source of evil, it was Mary who as mediator to God was a source of refuge for man. The development of medieval Mariology and the changing attitudes towards women paralleled each other and can best be understood in a common context.


When examining medieval literature, chivalry can be classified into three basic but overlapping areas:

Duties to countrymen and fellow Christians: this contains virtues such as mercy, courage, valor, fairness, protection of the weak and the poor, and in the servant-hood of the knight to his lord. This also brings with it the idea of being willing to give one’s life for another’s; whether he would be giving his life for a poor man or his lord.
Duties to God: this would contain being faithful to God, protecting the innocent, being faithful to the church, being the champion of good against evil, being generous and obeying God above the feudal lord.
Duties to women: this is probably the most familiar aspect of chivalry. This would contain what is often called courtly love, the idea that the knight is to serve a lady, and after her all other ladies. Most especially in this category is a general gentleness and graciousness to all women.

These three areas obviously overlap quite frequently in chivalry, and are often indistinguishable.

Different weight given to different areas produced different strands of chivalry:

warrior chivalry, in which a knight's chief duty is to his lord, as exemplified by Sir Gawain in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight and The Wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnelle
religious chivalry, in which a knight's chief duty is to protect the innocent and serve God, as exemplified by Sir Galahad or Sir Percival in the Grail legends.
courtly love chivalry, in which a knight's chief duty is to his own lady, and after her, all ladies, as exemplified by Sir Lancelot in his love for Queen Guinevere or Sir Tristan in his love for Iseult

So - with an eye to the above, and keeping in mind the concept of chivalry was martial in nature long before marital, where do we find it today? In the obvious locations - soldiers.....police.......those who don a uniform and take up arms in the defense of their people. It's there in other locations, but most prevalent in the police and military, much like it always has been.

 

[HesterPrynne]

I don't think it's dead. Sometimes it can still be found.

I get all giddy when a door is held for me or when I'm allowed to pass through an entryway first or when I am made to walk on the inside of the sidewalk.

Not to mention being allowed to go ahead of someone in line or a simple please or thank you.

It's rare ..... but it's out there.