Categories: NC/reluctance vs. BDSM

[dave_devil]

I've just finished writing the 2nd installment of a series, and I'm having a crisis about the category to put it in. Hoping to canvass some views about this & get some advice from other authors.

Basically, Ch.1 involves the female character, who is flirting with a guy, being blackmailed into being stripped and spanked by the guy, being turned on by the experience and then being goaded into having sex very reluctantly (but more-or-less consensually). I should explain that I don't have a problem at all with fully non-consensual sex in erotic fiction - the main reason the story depicts something other than rape at this point is simply because that is where the story seemed to be heading. (I suppose also, I enjoy reading and writing about characters who suffer the double humiliation of consenting to, and enjoying, their own abuse... or the triple humiliation of getting off on their own humiliation, etc!). At any rate, there seemed to be sufficient reluctance / nc elements to justify putting the story in that category.

Ch.1 has been well received: enough to make me invested in writing further chapters. Alongside some very positive comments, there was one negative/troll-y comment that was a dumb "this is just a male fantasy"-type thing, which I'm not too stressed about. But there was another, more thoughtful negative comment that was along the lines of a) NC makes more sense when the 'victim' character does not enjoy the treatment and at most is forced to orgasm just by physical stimulation, b) bad NC stories devolve into overblown abuse or "unrealistic sexual satisfaction from being abused" - the commenter didn't say that my story suffered from that, but seemed concerned that that was where it might be heading, c) if the 'victim' *does* enjoy the treatment, it is better to just file the thing under BDSM, which is the right place for stories about satisfaction brought about by domination and humiliation.

The interesting implication of that view seems to be that, in some senses, any kind of blurred line element is a bit a queasy (ethically as well as aesthetically??) - but that one can mitigate that by making sure that stories that are fantasies about (genuine) rape are filed under NC, whereas stories where all involved characters are motivated largely by lust should be under BDSM. And, hence, somewhat paradoxically, in the case of my story, it would be less 'problematic' to file it under the *less* extreme category.

It's an interesting point in its own right, but it's particularly an issue going forward because in my new (not yet published) chapter, there really is no element of coercion at all, not even a fig leaf (eg some ongoing threat of blackmail). The woman comes back to the man of her own initiative. She is made to do things she doesn't initially want to do, but is given the option of walking away at all times. At one point, she *requests* to be tortured into complying with the man's request which is otherwise too shameful for her to do, which is pure BDSM psychology. Later on, we learn of an emerging sub-plot in which her ex-boyfriend intends to hurt her by publicising her activities, which is of course is wrong, but is not a matter of non-consentual / reluctant sex per se.

So why the dilemna? Why not just file Ch2 onwards under BDSM. The reservations I would have are:

a) Most people who see Ch2 onwards will likely go back to Ch1, and if they are not into blackmail / coercion, they could be upset by that.
b) The readers who liked Ch1 will have mostly seen the story via the NC / Reluctance page. I guess I don't want them to miss out if Ch2 gets posted under a different category.
c) If the issue is an *ethical* one (i.e. the problem about blurred lines) then the solution in question is just purely formal. It doesn't change the substance of the story.

Really interested to hear other people's thoughts!

 

[SimonDoom]

I'll preface my comment by saying that I've always thought that "category policing" is a bit silly. My basic view is you should write whatever story you want to write publish it in the category where you think it best fits to reach your desired readers, and everybody should be OK with that.

But many readers don't see it that way, and with the noncon/BDSM categories you should be aware of that.

The basic division is this: if there's a question about whether the sex is consensual, it should go in noncon. BDSM readers love domination and sadism as long as they are consensual, but some of them really don't like those things if there's a question about coercion.

Blackmail is not consensual. Blackmail stories belong in noncon, not BDSM.

Your story sounds like more of a noncon story than a BDSM story, but you haven't revealed enough to know for sure.

Suggestion: provide a link to your story in your post.

 

[dave_devil]

I'll preface my comment by saying that I've always thought that "category policing" is a bit silly. My basic view is you should write whatever story you want to write publish it in the category where you think it best fits to reach your desired readers, and everybody should be OK with that.

Thanks for these thoughts! I agree about the category policing being silly. I do understand the sentiment that a lot of readers have: "hey, I came on here for apples and you are giving me pears!" But then it's frustrating for authors if they then are straightjacketed by this kind of thing - and then for readers too, if they are looking for stuff that doesn't fit into some rigid formula imposed by other readers' expectations!

I didn't post the story link, btw, because I wasn't sure about the etiquette on this forum, and I didn't (don't) want anyone on here to think that they had to plough through my story before they could comment on the issue raised, but here it is: https://www.literotica.com/s/the-influencer-ch-01

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

I think you were right to put it in non-con for a couple of reasons. First, as Simon already mentioned, if there's any question, or any crossover, it should go in non-con. Having non-con in its own category and "category policing" of non-consent in stories submitted under other categories isn't just for the purpose of grouping a kink together. It's also an a protection.

I'm sure you're well aware of the stats on the prevalence of rape. Not everyone approaches it the same way afterwards. There are rape survivors among the non-con authors and their readership. But there are some people who are triggered fantasies that even border on rape. Those people deserve to be able to access their smut just like everyone else, without getting triggered. I view keeping everything potentially non-con in the non-con category as a courtesy to them.

So, on one hand, you have your reader's concern the story wasn't NC enough for NC, which seems to me to boil down to how well it satisfied a kink, and on the other hand, you have the every negative experience someone might have reading a story in BDSM, where consent is sacred, and running into dubious consent.

That brings me to the second point. BDSM readers will be quite harsh if they believe your story should have been in non-consent. "Just a fantasy" does not matter to people invested in that kink or in that lifestyle. BDSM is all a mind-fuck after all, so telling them it isn't "real" probably isn't going to cut it. BDSM requires consent, and if it doesn't have consent, it's not BDSM, which requires voluntary power transfer.

So, again weighing your options, you have readers in non-con that might find it not extreme enough for their tastes, and on the other hand you have readers in BDSM who have a reputation for eating people alive for non-con in a BDSM story.

I think all the factors weigh in the same direction and that you were right to put it in non-con to begin with. Finally, take a look at the stories that rate well in the non-con category. A lot of them aren't actually non-con at all, but dub-con or reluctance. If non-con readers only wanted hard core non-con, that wouldn't be the case.

 

[lovecraft68]

The category is non con/reluctance. Personally I've always felt that's a weird mix as one isn't even close to the other. People also tend to drop the reluctance and assume everything in it is non con.

What I feel you have is dub-con or dubious consent. Blackmail is the perfect example...there is a choice, meaning its not non con, but if they choose no something bad could befall them so its a reluctant yes...but still a yes.

Dub con is also far more believable when it comes to a character being reluctant then getting into it. The rape stories where a woman is being raped but suddenly yells, yeah I love it..is idiotic and unnecessary as only a newb or a fool things lit doesn't allow rape stories.

I don't see BDSM being a good option here, so I'd go NC/R

 

[astuffedshirt_perv]

I'll preface my comment by saying that I've always thought that "category policing" is a bit silly.

No, it is idiotic. Anyway, OPs first chapter does seem like it fits the NC/R category perfectly, blackmail is usually in that category. But from what you posted about chapter 2 onward, seems like BDSM is the right category going forward. Don't worry, all choices will be deemed wrong by some meathead. Just be grateful you're not posting in LW.

 

[Bramblethorn]

But there was another, more thoughtful negative comment that was along the lines of a) NC makes more sense when the 'victim' character does not enjoy the treatment and at most is forced to orgasm just by physical stimulation, b) bad NC stories devolve into overblown abuse or "unrealistic sexual satisfaction from being abused" - the commenter didn't say that my story suffered from that, but seemed concerned that that was where it might be heading, c) if the 'victim' *does* enjoy the treatment, it is better to just file the thing under BDSM, which is the right place for stories about satisfaction brought about by domination and humiliation.

...except that this site specifically requires that the victim gets pleasure out of it in NC stories.

I'm not convinced that's a good policy, but it's the policy.

And, yeah, blackmail is definitely NC.

 

[BelleCanzuto]

It's an interesting point in its own right, but it's particularly an issue going forward because in my new (not yet published) chapter, there really is no element of coercion at all, not even a fig leaf (eg some ongoing threat of blackmail). The woman comes back to the man of her own initiative. She is made to do things she doesn't initially want to do, but is given the option of walking away at all times. At one point, she *requests* to be tortured into complying with the man's request which is otherwise too shameful for her to do, which is pure BDSM psychology. Later on, we learn of an emerging sub-plot in which her ex-boyfriend intends to hurt her by publicising her activities, which is of course is wrong, but is not a matter of non-consentual / reluctant sex per se.

So why the dilemna? Why not just file Ch2 onwards under BDSM. The reservations I would have are:

a) Most people who see Ch2 onwards will likely go back to Ch1, and if they are not into blackmail / coercion, they could be upset by that.
b) The readers who liked Ch1 will have mostly seen the story via the NC / Reluctance page. I guess I don't want them to miss out if Ch2 gets posted under a different category.
c) If the issue is an *ethical* one (i.e. the problem about blurred lines) then the solution in question is just purely formal. It doesn't change the substance of the story.

Really interested to hear other people's thoughts!

I started to read your first chapter, and I may go back and read more. I thought the note/preface at the beginning was a very interesting lead into the story, and the overal arc of it.

That being said, I think Chapter 1 is definitely in the correct place. Coerced sex is generally seen as nonconsensual. And the tone of your narrator in the first paragraph or so doesn't imply respect or concern for your "victim".

As far as chapter 2, and going forward, you're correct that part of the dilemma is keeping the audience you've already attracted vs. putting it in a potentially more suitable category. From the way you've described chapter 2, I'd lean toward BDSM -- if you clearly establish that your sub has had some kind of sexual "awakening" that makes her realize this is the kind of sex she wants to have. You'd do well to CLEARLY establish that she's consenting going forward, and maybe even have some extended exposition of her thought processes as she's realizing that she wants to continue this humiliation kink.

But, just to through another wrench in the works, in my experience, the current readership of BDSM seems to respond more favorably to D/s dynamics, rather than S/m dynamics. So, servitude, humiliation, objectification seem to be better received than actual sadism and masochism.

As far as warning off readers about chapter 1, I think you could accomplish that with an author's note at the beginning saying that the iniital chapter was in NonCon because your victim/sub hadn't realized that's what she liked yet. But I think you would need to (to repeat myself) fully show her transformation internally, rather than some trite or throwaway lines about how being humiliated made her cum harder than she ever had in her life...

~~~~
Re "category policing", since this seems most often to come up in regard to BDSM, I'll add these two cents. *Some* category policing is idiotic. Broadbrush assertions that face slapping isn't BDSM, or that stories that don't tediously delineate every sub's every hard limit are somehow in violation of the lifestyle are, yes, dumb and overwrought.
But the foundation of BDSM (as EoN said) is consent. True consent. It's a voluntary power exchange, not something that is forced or coerced. It's something that you should at least indicate that the people on both halves of the dynamic understand. And it's precisely because these dynamics are so easily misunderstood by well meaning people that having clear lines in the categories is beneficial. imo.

 

[dave_devil]

Thanks also to Enchantment, Lovecraft and Stuffedshirt for your input. All food for thought.

I think I'm now more confident that the original story was in the right category, which is good I guess.

I am still not sure about subsequent chapters. There are no real non-con or even "dub-con" factors projected for the remaining chapters - let's assume that all blackmail threats, however underwhelming, have been lifted. (At the most, I envisage a plot where the characters are forced to go public about their lifestyle - by being 'outed' in the press and receiving hostility online that encourage them to "own" what they are doing - and hence are pushed into a sort of vaguely "socially coerced" exhibitionism. All in all, any "reluctance" element even will be pretty tenuous.)

Assuming that one could best describe the later chapters as BDSM, I still don't know whether it is wise to switch to BDSM category given the overall story contains at least one non-con chapter.

I'm concerned about the triggering point, as raised by Enchantment: the problem is that any reader intrigued by the later chapters are likely to go back and read Ch.1 and that, as I think we have established, definitely veers into non-con territory. I guess, though, the fact that Ch.1 is marked as being in the non-con/reluctance categioy serves as a trigger warning.

But then, in any event, perhaps some BDSM readers might be upset that the story set as a whole mixes up the two genres - i.e. they might say, 'what good is it you serving up chapters that describe a BDSM relationship if the overall story describes a situation with non-con elements?'

 

[dave_devil]

And, yeah, blackmail is definitely NC.

Yeah, that would be my instinct.

I mean, in deference to Lovecraft68's view that it might be described as "dubious" consent, I can see the point that if, for example, you have a very in-control, wised-up 'victim' and an incredibly underwhelming blackmail threat (eg victim consents to sex to avoid a trivial inconvenience like being forced to go to the back of a long queue or getting a library fine or something like that), that is a long way away from rape, and more like a kind sexual bargaining or even a thinly disguised flirtation device. But most imaginable blackmail, I feel, is straight-up non-consent. I don't need to get into that BIG area of controversy here though because I think in my story, the original blackmail involves a reasonably serious threat amd so leads to a straight-up non-consent situation.

 

[dave_devil]

As far as chapter 2, and going forward, you're correct that part of the dilemma is keeping the audience you've already attracted vs. putting it in a potentially more suitable category. From the way you've described chapter 2, I'd lean toward BDSM -- if you clearly establish that your sub has had some kind of sexual "awakening" that makes her realize this is the kind of sex she wants to have. You'd do well to CLEARLY establish that she's consenting going forward, and maybe even have some extended exposition of her thought processes as she's realizing that she wants to continue this humiliation kink.

Thanks for all your insights Belle, this is all super interesting and thought-provoking.

The bit quoted above is almost uncanny because in the draft I have, that is basically exactly what I had done, except that it's done mostly through dialogue rather than thought process exposition.

She calls the guy in and says, in essence, 'I LOVE this treatment, but I don't want any boundaries or rules because that would spoil it'... but then, inconsisently, she straight away sets a bunch of boundaries anyway, and then (for good measure) the guy sets a few more. Voluntary power-exchange does indeed sum up the dynamic for the remainder of the chapter. Even on a micro-level of what she is forced to do, or what she is subjected to, at any given moment she is calling most of the shots, subtly or not so subtly.

It's weird because I haven't been consciously angling to push this in a BDSM direction. Far from it: I seem to have some form of personal hang-up about the BDSM categorisation... which, now I think about it, is expressed by my female victim/sub character in the story itself! (Even in Ch.1 she deprecates people who are 'into bondage', and then in Ch.2, as I say, she worries that rules and boundaries will kill the mood.) And yet that is exactly where the kinky flow of the story is going, at least in Ch. 2.

It is also interesting, in this connection, what you say about D/s dynamics being received better by the BDSM community than S/m. Again, this could be an issue, inasmuch as for my kinks - and for my imagined heroine - I need the S/m as a "transmission" device to get to the D/s. That reflects the way the scenario develops from a non-con situation, and also my heroine's (or rather my) scepticism about "formal" boundaries. Indeed, in Ch.2 she keeps demanding to be subjected to pain to force her to do something humiliating - rather than than simply submit to the humiliating request, since it is still beneath her dignity to do so. Perhaps that will be a problem for BDSM readers, in light of your insights.

I do hear you - with a tiny bit of shame - about the "lack of respect or concern" for the female character at the start of Ch.1. I guess that I saw her as being, initially, one of those sort of literary anti-heroes like Keith Talent in London Fields, or Flashman, or whatever (sorry can't think of any great female examples) - someone who is both genuinely quite awful but also genuinely relateable... And also someone who develops into someone better and wiser as the story advance. But that kind of character development is probably WAY too ambitious for this kind of writing (and my abilities), though. And it was perhaps a mis-step to start from the guy/dom's point of view. Oh well.

At any rate, I'm now tempted to post Ch.2 in "BDSM" just to see if it sits there. I dunno. I'll sleep on it.

 

[BelleCanzuto]

Thanks for all your insights Belle, this is all super interesting and thought-provoking.

The bit quoted above is almost uncanny because in the draft I have, that is basically exactly what I had done, except that it's done mostly through dialogue rather than thought process exposition.

She calls the guy in and says, in essence, 'I LOVE this treatment, but I don't want any boundaries or rules because that would spoil it'... but then, inconsisently, she straight away sets a bunch of boundaries anyway, and then (for good measure) the guy sets a few more. Voluntary power-exchange does indeed sum up the dynamic for the remainder of the chapter. Even on a micro-level of what she is forced to do, or what she is subjected to, at any given moment she is calling most of the shots, subtly or not so subtly.

It's weird because I haven't been consciously angling to push this in a BDSM direction. Far from it: I seem to have some form of personal hang-up about the BDSM categorisation... which, now I think about it, is expressed by my female victim/sub character in the story itself! (Even in Ch.1 she deprecates people who are 'into bondage', and then in Ch.2, as I say, she worries that rules and boundaries will kill the mood.) And yet that is exactly where the kinky flow of the story is going, at least in Ch. 2.

It is also interesting, in this connection, what you say about D/s dynamics being received better by the BDSM community than S/m. Again, this could be an issue, inasmuch as for my kinks - and for my imagined heroine - I need the S/m as a "transmission" device to get to the D/s. That reflects the way the scenario develops from a non-con situation, and also my heroine's (or rather my) scepticism about "formal" boundaries. Indeed, in Ch.2 she keeps demanding to be subjected to pain to force her to do something humiliating - rather than than simply submit to the humiliating request, since it is still beneath her dignity to do so. Perhaps that will be a problem for BDSM readers, in light of your insights.

I do hear you - with a tiny bit of shame - about the "lack of respect or concern" for the female character at the start of Ch.1. I guess that I saw her as being, initially, one of those sort of literary anti-heroes like Keith Talent in London Fields, or Flashman, or whatever (sorry can't think of any great female examples) - someone who is both genuinely quite awful but also genuinely relateable... And also someone who develops into someone better and wiser as the story advance. But that kind of character development is probably WAY too ambitious for this kind of writing (and my abilities), though. And it was perhaps a mis-step to start from the guy/dom's point of view. Oh well.

At any rate, I'm now tempted to post Ch.2 in "BDSM" just to see if it sits there. I dunno. I'll sleep on it.

InRe my perception of lack of respect in the first part of your story, I didn't mean it as a criticism, but rather just another element that added to my thinking that NonCon was the right category for that chapter. You'll find any number of stories in the BDSM category in which you'd be hard pressed to find expressions of respect for the sub. Personally, I don't enjoy those as much (I much prefer the stories where the characters in the power exchange show affection toward each other, even if it's a kind of warped affection), but that 'lack of respect' if it continued into the more BDSM type stories, wouldn't necessarily mean BDSM was the wrong category. I hope that makes sense, I feel like I'm not articulating things clearly.

I would not say that it was a misstep to start from the 'dom's' point of view. If you keep that point of view, then having your 'sub' express her 'awakening' verbally to him is necessary, since your narrator isn't inside her head (and I'd forgotten, actually, that Ch 1 is written first person, sorry). My only note would be that you give your 'sub' a chance to fully express what's going on, and actually a conversation about boundaries or limits (and the gradual changing of those limits) is a good way to do that.

The point about pain vs submission: it's just an observation, it's not necessarily a reason to rethink the category. Because you're absolutely right that there's a dynamic in some power exchange relationships in which pain is used in service to a different kink (like you said, she wants the pain to force herself to do the humiliating thing she gets off on). It's a tough needle to thread, I think, and you'd do well to also have your 'dom' clearly showing that he understands that the pain is a tool, rather than the end itself.

I don't want to sound like I'm telling you parameters you have to keep within to make it a "real BDSM" story. I encourage you to write whatever story needs to be written, in whatever way is truest to you as an author.

If I had one rule for you to follow in deciding which category, it would go back to the issue of consent. If you show that your characters know what they're getting into with the power exchange, at least the broad strokes, if not all the details, then it's more like a BDSM story. If it's not clear, or you want to keep it unclear, that the characters are agreeing to have this relationship, then NonCon might be better.

One last word of advice: commenters can be helpful, but they can also have their own hangups about things. I recently had a commenter say that my just published NonCon series should have been in BDSM, because that commenter didn't like those elements to the story, even though the 'victim' in no wise consented to what was happening to her. So, if you have a plan for this story overall, and overall you think NonCon is the better category, then don't let a commenter deter you (or me).

{{Now that I've completely muddied the waters}}

 

[Brutal_One]

I had this dilemma with launching my own story Arc where the main plot arguably NC but I also wanted to explore and write about a BDSM relationship. I intially started the series in BDSM and it was a beginner error in a way because I had not realised the full list of categories.

For recent chapters they are correctly classified as NC. I will have a few chapters that are BDSM so will submit them in that category. It’s one series so it’s just that some chapters are NC and some BDSM. In the writing I just make sure that the chapters are not mixing categories. Some of the earlier ones did but they were relatively short. It does seem the correct classification does impact the rating with most of my correctly classified chapters scoring above 4.

Brutal One