Capitalism is Bad for your Health!

[REDWAVE]

The health care crisis has spread into the middle class, according to an article in today's NYT. Forty one million Americans are without health insurance, including 1.4 million who lost it during the past year. The number of uninsured has risen steadily, jumping from 32.9 million to 35.4 million during the 1990-92 recession. (You know-- the last time a guy named Bush was in office.) Revealingly, it rose even more during the "boom" years of the go-go 1990's, reaching 40.7 million in 1998. And those were the "good" years . . .

Why? As Broder writes, "much of the job growth during the expansion of the 1900's came in small businesses and in service industries, low-wage, nonunion sectors . . ."

The Cobra program, where workers who lose their jobs can keep their health insurance up to 18 months, but have to pay the full cost, helps a little, but not nearly enough. Only about 25% of workers say they would keep up Cobra coverage-- too expensive.

From my perspective, that anyone would be denied needed medical care simply because they can't afford to pay for it is utterly barbaric, befitting only a backward, benighted society. Universal health care is a RIGHT-- one which is systematically denied and violated by the brutal, repressive capitalist system.


Reference:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/25/national/25INSU.html

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

From my perspective, that anyone would be denied needed medical care simply because they can't afford to pay for it is utterly barbaric, befitting only a backward, benighted society. Universal health care is a RIGHT-- one which is systematically denied and violated by the brutal, repressive capitalist system.

come up to canda you can have my socialized medicine, and I will gfo to your united states and buy my own health insurance, and lets see who gets the faster better care.

 

[Worm]

Yeah yeah lets have Universal Health care so even the middle class will get second rate health care and the only people who would be getting the best care would be the truly wealthy.

 

[REDWAVE]

Of course . . .

The irony of a society which spends enormous amounts of money on killing people, but is unable to provide its own people with health care, is obvious and overwhelming . . .

 

[ChefChip]

Re: Of course . . .

The irony of a society which spends enormous amounts of money on killing people, but is unable to provide its own people with health care, is obvious and overwhelming . . .

can't you ever just be happy with the fact that you have the right to even think and say what you say rather than complain. if you don't like it go move to russia and tehn tell me how bad the US is.

 

[HeavyStick]

Re: Re: Of course . . .

can't you ever just be happy with the fact that you have the right to even think and say what you say rather than complain. if you don't like it go move to russia and tehn tell me how bad the US is.

There's no winning with that idiot.

I'm happy that he has me on ignore. He got tired of "facts" and "logic".

Give this thread a copy of days, real people will debate and redwave will jump in with "exactly" and "I couldn't have cut and pasted that better myself".

 

[ChefChip]

Re: Re: Re: Of course . . .

There's no winning with that idiot.

I'm happy that he has me on ignore. He got tired of "facts" and "logic".

Give this thread a copy of days, real people will debate and redwave will jump in with "exactly" and "I couldn't have cut and pasted that better myself".

I FUCKING HATE HIPPIES

 

[Starblayde]

"If you smoke weed then you are a hippy, and hippies suck" Cartman

 

[ChefChip]

"If you smoke weed then you are a hippy, and hippies suck" Cartman

"you hate black people don't you?"

"No I hate hippies, they drive around in their busses that get bad milage and cry about the environment, I jsut wanna kick them in the nuts."

 

[Worm]

That sounds all nice and campy and compassionate. Why does America have the best doctors and health care treatment in the world?

Doctors, drug companies, scientists etc. are allowed to research new drugs and new techniques pouring millions and billions into research. They are then allowed to recoup that investment by selling their products making a profit and the cycle continues. Companies are actively competeing with each other to create the best techniques and drugs available. If the government runs health care..not only will you still be paying for it (taxes) you will also stifle the environment that allows such incredible medical advancements to be made. Profits will be lost, companies will go under....there would be no incentive to research and come up with new products and ideas. In the long run people will suffer from diseases that may have been cured years ago if companies were allowed to compete with each other, and the general public will be worse off.

 

[p_p_man]

Re: Re: Of course . . .

can't you ever just be happy with the fact that you have the right to even think and say what you say rather than complain. if you don't like it go move to russia and tehn tell me how bad the US is.

Does that mean you're content to see large numbers of your fellow citizens suffer and often die through lack of universal medical attention.

I know you Yanks are callous, full of the "me, me, me" attitude, but even that takes non-caring beyond the pale.

ppman

 

[p_p_man]

That sounds all nice and campy and compassionate. Why does America have the best doctors and health care treatment in the world?

It's absolutely useless having the best in the world if only those who can afford it are able to use it.

And if Redwave's figures are correct, nearly a sixth of Americans can't...

What do you do?

Step over them as they lie dying in the gutter?

ppman

 

[miles]

The health care crisis has spread into the middle class, according to an article in today's NYT. Forty one million Americans are without health insurance, including 1.4 million who lost it during the past year. The number of uninsured has risen steadily, jumping from 32.9 million to 35.4 million during the 1990-92 recession. (You know-- the last time a guy named Bush was in office.) Revealingly, it rose even more during the "boom" years of the go-go 1990's, reaching 40.7 million in 1998. And those were the "good" years . . .

Why? As Broder writes, "much of the job growth during the expansion of the 1900's came in small businesses and in service industries, low-wage, nonunion sectors . . ."

The Cobra program, where workers who lose their jobs can keep their health insurance up to 18 months, but have to pay the full cost, helps a little, but not nearly enough. Only about 25% of workers say they would keep up Cobra coverage-- too expensive.

From my perspective, that anyone would be denied needed medical care simply because they can't afford to pay for it is utterly barbaric, befitting only a backward, benighted society. Universal health care is a RIGHT-- one which is systematically denied and violated by the brutal, repressive capitalist system.


Reference:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/25/national/25INSU.html

I know he won't answer this. He never does when he's busted.

How many of those 41 million people who are "without health insurance" receive free health care through state and federal entitlement programs?

You don't know.

How many of those 41 million people are making a conscious decision not to buy health insurance?

You don't know.


How many people are being denied health care?

Same answer.


Health insurance is a benefit some companies choose to provide their employees. Due to the rising cost of medical care and premiums, employers have no choice but to turn more of the costs over to their employees because they simply can't afford the overhead. The current trend will continue with more and more companies opting out of employee health coverage due to rising costs.

There ain't no free lunches, Cha-cha.

Sorry, dude. No one has a "right" to health care. Saying so doesn't make it true.

 

[HeavyStick]

Re: Re: Re: Of course . . .

Does that mean you're content to see large numbers of your fellow citizens suffer and often die through lack of universal medical attention.

I know you Yanks are callous, full of the "me, me, me" attitude, but even that takes non-caring beyond the pale.

ppman

With the money that supports our medical companies, universal healthcare would never make it in Congress. It's an empty campaign promise neither party would fulfill. Socialized medicine sounds very nice, but in our economy it would never be feasible.

I am in favor of socialized education.

If the student has the grades, let them take all the school they want.

 

[miles]

Re: Re: Re: Of course . . .

Does that mean you're content to see large numbers of your fellow citizens suffer and often die through lack of universal medical attention.

I know you Yanks are callous, full of the "me, me, me" attitude, but even that takes non-caring beyond the pale.

ppman

When you have no facts, you make them up.

Where are all these dying people?

Have a few more pints. Hic.


What a lying sack of shit.

 

[HeavyStick]

Why does America have the best doctors and health care treatment in the world?

Profits.

How many neurosurgeons would do that job making 18K a year living next to redwave? None.

 

[p_p_man]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Of course . . .

With the money that supports our medical companies, universal healthcare would never make it in Congress. It's an empty campaign promise neither party would fulfill. Socialized medicine sounds very nice, but in our economy it would never be feasible.

I am in favor of socialized education.

If the student has the grades, let them take all the school they want.

Yes I can see that America took the wrong path when it came to healthcare and for the reasons you mention it would take a tremendous upheaval of your socio-economic system to correct the mistake but perhaps a second tier of healthcare funded by Federal funds could be considered?

At least people caught in the poverty trap would still acquire medical attention.

ppman

 

[p_p_man]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Of course . . .

When you have no facts, you make them up.

Where are all these dying people?

They're not going to parade them on prime time TV are they?

Or have a list of 'Yesterday's Deaths Due to Lack of Medical Care' printed in the papers?

Think baby think...

Like you did in your post above about State and Federal funds supporting those who slip through the net. That being so the situation isn't as bad as we over here are always led to believe...

Not ideal by any means but not hopeless...

ppman

 

[HeavyStick]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Of course . . .

..... but perhaps a second tier of healthcare funded by Federal funds could be considered?

At least people caught in the poverty trap would still acquire medical attention.

ppman

Many states do have that. You live abroad, I don't expect you to click all night on the internet for answers. Redwave has local resources. He knows better and miles did an excellent job disecting his post for what it was worth.

Social Security- I have a neighbor who makes less than 40K a year. He gets a check from the fed gov for $336 for his autistic kid. He also gets medical care provided by the state (California). He hasn't paid over $1000 out of pocket for the 5 years his 6 y/o son has been in the system. The kid has been seen for flu and asthma, and has recently been seen by a geneticist for further treatment. The kid broke his leg 3 years ago playing in a tree. For a 15K doctor bill, the dad paid 72 dollars.

 

[bored1]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Of course . . .

Yes I can see that America took the wrong path when it came to healthcare and for the reasons you mention it would take a tremendous upheaval of your socio-economic system to correct the mistake but perhaps a second tier of healthcare funded by Federal funds could be considered?

At least people caught in the poverty trap would still acquire medical attention.

ppman

Is it not true p_p that the affluent in England bypass socialized government services and rely on private hospitals?

 

[p_p_man]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Of course . . .

Is it not true p_p that the affluent in England bypass socialized government services and rely on private hospitals?

Not only the affluent. Anyone can pay into private health care if they wish and still benefit from the State National Health scheme. The sole benefit over here with private care is that it's only good to get swift medical attention, the State system has a waiting queue problem.

But as far as the quality of the medical care is concerned it was recently reported that there's no real difference between the two...

ppman

 

[sigh]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Of course . . .

At least people caught in the poverty trap would still acquire medical attention.

They already do receive medical attention, pp, they really do, but redwave doesn't like hearing that. In the hospital where I work (and thousands of others around the country) nobody is turned away when they need care, and those without resources receive exactly the same services as everyone else, plus one. They are offered financial counselors and social workers who can help them arrange means to pay and find government and private programs to help them out.

Health care is in trouble in our country, I don't deny that, but it isn't a lack of socialized medicine that's hurting us. That would simply make it worse. Far worse.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

Thanks for posting that, sigh. It saved me a little time and energy.

For those that don't remember me from when I was seen fairly regularly around these here parts, I'm a physician and I'm actually doing an emergency medicine rotation at a private hospital right now. Absolutely no one with an acute medical problem is turned away. We treat everyone.

Federal law (EMTALA) requires that any medical facility treating medical emergencies must stabilize a patient before he or she can be transferred. If a patient can't pay, the hospital swallows the cost and passes it on to those of us who do have insurance. State and county hospitals, clinics, and other programs provide a de facto "national health insurance".

I've worked at two of the biggest county hospitals in America and I can tell you, that although the facilities aren't as nice and patients have to wait longer and have to jump through a lot more hoops to get the care they need, it's there to be had and it's rare that they don't get it.

The problem for America's uninsured isn't that they don't get health care, but that it's terribly difficult to deal with the bureaucracy that goes along with public health care.

I've never worked in a truly socialized system, so I can't truly compare it to what I know, but the idea spouted by Red and PP that the uninsured are simply left to die on our doorsteps is absolutely ridiculous. Come to work with me or sigh or any of the dozens of other people at lit who work in health fields or social work and you'll see for yourself. It's a frustrating system and I curse it daily for its problems, but it really is there for everyone.

 

[REDWAVE]

Bullshit

People do die, and are dying every day, as a result of being denied needed health care. There have been numerous instances of patients without health insurance being diverted from the nearest hospital to the local "welfare" hospital (i.e., snakepit), which has to take everyone with an emergency, and dying en route. Even those hospitals which have to treat everyone ONLY have to do so if it's an emergency, which means many are denied routine preventive care, which would be much better for them, and often much less expensive than letting a minor condition go untreated and develop into a serious emergency, requiring extensive treatment. As someone who nearly died of heart failure for lack of needed medical care, I know exactly what I'm talking about-- from bitter first-hand experience.

 

[p_p_man]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Of course . . .

They already do receive medical attention, pp, they really do, but redwave doesn't like hearing that. In the hospital where I

Thanks sigh I had always suspected that but the things we hear this side of the Atlantic tend to show the negative side of the American system.

As Oliver says in his post (and I knew him when he used to work endless nights - or at least it seemed as if he did!) it's not the lack of care that's the problem but the bureaucracy involved. Luckily as a State run system we are part of the National Health as soon as we are born and our National Insurance Number follows us throughout our lives. The bureaucratic process has taken place almost before we've taken our first breath!

ps: Oliver, the reference about dying in the streets was said for dramatic emphasis and yet we do hear the odd story of people in need in America not being taken to hospital because they couldn't provide proof of medical insurance...

ppman