Capital Punishment

[Samuari]

Disclaimer: I would not be surprised if this has been the subject of many threads in the past, I don’t remember them, and there are many members that were not here then to contribute their two shekels.

Like most of the country, my state seems to be in a never-ending debate about Capital punishment. It usually seems to break down into three issues:
1. That it makes no sense to kill people to show people that killing people is wrong. Or conversely, that there are crimes that are so heinous that by their very nature demand the death penalty.
2. That capitol punishment is selectively applied against Afro- Americans, Hispanics, and those who are forced to use public defenders.
3. That there are many cases where the person convicted of the crime did not actually commit it, and that new technology (DNA testing) proves that they are not guilty, sometimes after the execution.

For now, I do think that there are some crimes for which death is the only appropriate punishment. We need to root prejudice out of our nation in all of the ugly places that we find it, not just in this application. We need to make any technology available to those accused who have to pay the ultimate price; and some how learn to deal with the fact that in spite of every reasonable precaution, there will be mistakes made, and some innocent people will be executed.

 

[#1derfulGuy]

LET THE PUNISHMENT FIT THE CRIME

If someone chooses to take the life of another or conspire to do such, then that person should be put to death when they are found guilty by jury of their peers.

 

[CelestialBody]

Re: LET THE PUNISHMENT FIT THE CRIME

 

[Bobtoad777]

I am for capital punish for the crime/s that suit it. I wont go into details why.

as for jailing them for life. yeah thats it reward them with free room board and food for killing people yeah that sounds fair. And while we are doing that lets take it out of the taxes payers{victims families }pockets to give them this reward

 

[Cyan BloodsBane]

I for it also.... here is my list of things I think..

1) A life is taken..
If you are guilty of the crime... then your death is needed for why keep a murder around...

2) A thieft..
If you steal once... Then you have jail time and have to pay back the owner what you stole.. Twice repeat steps one.. Three times death... if you are going to do it three times why keep them around it cost here in Canada about 30,000 a year for one person in prison..

I have more but it takes to long to type and my fingers would begin to hurt...

 

[Samuari]

The aspect that most concerns me are the very few cases where the person executed was not guilty of the crime, and proof was discovered to late. This is going to happen in a (hopefuly) very smal number of cases, but because human beings make mistakes, it will happen. It is, to me, the one argument against the death penality that I see no way arround.

Celestial, I am sorry that you don't have confidence in the legal system. That needs to be changed, yesterday. But it is a seperate issue, except as it impacts the number of innocent people that are executed. And that is, of course, the bottom line.

 

[riff]

Don't Get Me Started!

Outrage and anger are natural responses to violent crime. I, myself, have said "I'd like to choke the son of a bitch," and things like that. It's natural. It's the way we are.

But what makes me a free man is that I am not controlled by my feelings. I feel them. I think about them. And I make a decision as to how I will act.

I would like to see capital punishment abolished. I find it morally repulsive in addition to be impractical and ineffective.

It is morally repulsive to me because it violates the sanctity of human life. And it is the wrong solution. If a student rips up another student's book, he has violated the sanctity of private property. How should I teach him to respect private property? By ripping up his book too? Here I am trying to teach that we should respect private property bt violating it? Capital punishment does the same thing- we are trying to teach the sanctity of human life by violating it. Killing the killers testifies to all that "killing is the way the world works."

It's morally repulsive to me because it is unfair. Life is not fair, true, but our justice system of all things should aspire to fairness. Poor people get court appointed attorneys (in Texas- shit!- it's criminal- defense attorneys have SLEPT in the trials) and the poor tend to be executed. People who can afford a good defence tend not to be killed.

It is morally repulsive to me because it is a political football. Your governor wants to create the image he is tough on crime so he is less likely, especially around election time, to grant a repreive. One politician granted a prisoner a stay for DNA testing in order to make himself look compassionate (the prisoner was hopelessly guilty and the likelyhood of a negative test was very slight). The whole political nature of capital punishment in the United States is embarrassing to me- it's disgusting.

Shall I go on?

It's morally repulsive because it is sadistic. I have watched people who otherwise appear to be kind and compassionate individuals become rabid with lust for blood and pain on the condemned, and then demonically gleeful when he is dead. I lived in Florida when Ted Bundy was executed. I am not defending Bundy, but the way the people behaved was sick. Gentle mothers inventing the most gruesome types of tortures that they would love to inflict as a way of killing the condemned. And the kids are listening.. It's sick. You know the behavior I am talking about. We have a radio talk show host who plays "Another One Bites the Dust." I could puke.

It morally repulsive because we kill innocent people. Are most of them guilty? You bet. Has our justice system allowed innocent people to be executed? You bet. People are always being found innocent after years on death row. And there are well documented cases of innocence proved after execution.

I could go on with the morally repulsive stuff...

It does not deter crime. But somehow it makes people feel safer... the criminals don't think they will be caught so it doesn't apply to them. Go look at the stats.

It is totally impractical. It costs more to execute a man than it does to keep him alive in prison for 40 years.

I need to get out of here.

Even people who believe in capital punishment acknowledge they system is flawed. Why not just a moratorium? At least we won't be killing people until the moratorium is lifted.

I am a member, sometimes sadly, of "We the People."

 

[teresafannin]

Lose a child to murder, then see how you feel about capital punishment. Perhaps some of those "gentle mothers" you condemn buried a child that someone like Bundy took from them. Bundy & people like him get what they deserve. What is morally offensive to me is the web sites devoted to promoting these criminals, the bleeding hearts who think my tax dollars should pay room, board, computer time & in some cases for a college education. Life in prison is still life, explain that to a mother who has buried her child at 17. By the way, it isn't just Texas where attorneys sleep, it is all over the place, Texas is just politically incorrect enough to execute criminals.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Kill em. If they killed, particularly more than once, then they deserve the death penalty. I'm not interested and years upon years of appeals either. Give them enough time to do the necessary appeals, expedite the appeals, then kill 'em.

Except for one thing. You'd better make damned sure they're guilty first. In most states in the US the death penalty can only be applied by a jury of peers, not a judge. In some instances the guilt is not only obvious but confessed to. For instance, Ed Kemper. In other instances, the guilt isn't that obvious.

I have faith in our system, it's the only one we have and it seems much fairer than some other systems. It has its difficulties, one of which is too many lawyers, but it does have its upsides too. If you don't like the system there are three choices, live with it, change it, or leave. In this country we can do all three. In some countries you can only live with it.

 

[Bobtoad777]

for everybody that is against capital punishment you can pay my share of it to keep them alive and send me the money that is going out of my taxes to keep them alive then it will be fair.

Capital punishment.

Hypodermic syringe $ 0.25
Sodium whatever-it-is $ 10.00
Cremation and disposal $1000.00
----------------------------------
Total $1010.25


Keep 'em alive.

Per one year $30,000
average life expectancey 30 years
-----------------------------------
Total $900,000

Get rid of 'em much less money out of my pocket

 

[Mustang Sally]

Not that simple, toad. The justice system is obliged to allow time for appeals to make absolutely certain they are not going to kill an innocent person, which can take years and a lot of money. If you get rid of the appeals, the risk of making a big and permanent mistake goes up.

I was going to write a long post on this, but I don't really know what I'm talking about beyond the very basics.

I am morally ok with the idea of killers being punished by the crime they committed. I am very torn by the fact that mistakes are made, and ocassionally an innocent person will be put to death.

I can't firmly say I'm for or against capital punishment. The system clearly needs to be improved, but I have no suggestions to offer. So why'd I bother to post? lol I don't know.

[Edited by Mustang Sally on 11-30-2000 at 09:42 PM]

 

[Bobtoad777]

When a man woman confesses to killing admits guilt, i don't care about appeals and what not if they admit and are found guilty pull out the needle right then and there.

that takes care of 60% of murders then deal with the other 40% through trail and jury and appeals but make it quick if you can't prove a killer innocent within 2 years of conviction than more than likely the killer is guilty.

why draw ir out of my pocket i am only make 9000$ after taxes as it is to begin with then your pal Jean Cretian{sp} takes 15% of that and puts it into his wallet.

 

[Ezzy]

In the UK...

A life sentence when given in a court of law, is 25 years.

A perp who commites a murder will get a single sentence of 25 years, and will get time off if he / she obey's the rules while imprisoned.

I fall between the stalls on this issue, I do think that there should be Capital Punishment. I also think that a "reasonable" amount of time should be allowed for an appeals process.

I too am concerned with the innocence issue, and I would not wish to let the guilty off if caught and convicted after the innocent had been executed.

The studies that I have read on the issue, appear to show no diminishment of murders in countries that have and use capital punishment, when compared to those that only jail the "guilty".

With one exception, in those countries that have and use capital punishment, have very few repeat offenders, after they have been convicted the first time.



EZ http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/cwm2/sleep.gif

 

[Mustang Sally]

bobtoad

Definitely splitting hairs here, but somehow that's so much fun to do with you: CHRETIEN actually only takes 7% (GST). The rest is taken by whoever you elected as premier (PST).

And I have no idea where you got your percentages, but you're WAY oversimplifying a very complicated issue.

(sorry everyone else)

 

[Samuari]

Re: bobtoad

Definitely splitting hairs here, but somehow that's so much fun to do with you: CHRETIEN actually only takes 7% (GST). The rest is taken by whoever you elected as premier (PST).

And I have no idea where you got your percentages, but you're WAY oversimplifying a very complicated issue.

(sorry everyone else)

What? So does this affect a final solution?

 

[Bobtoad777]

I still say 2 years of appeals if you can't prove a killer innocent in 2 years then either they are guilty or you were not trying very hard.

About the money, seeing as I have to pay out money and we all do Us and canada in taxes I would rather it be used for roads, schools, hospitals not giving some killer free food, free cable, free education, free room and board, free porn, free cigs, should I go on?

Criminal Killers have a better standard of living in jail than 3/4to 78 of the people on the outside working our ass off to keeep killers alive.

 

[Skibum]

Re: Re: bobtoad

What? So does this affect a final solution?

It is interesting that a thread about capital punishment should have a post refering to a "final solution". Was that intentional, Samuari?

 

[CelestialBody]

 

[riff]

Lose a child to murder, then see how you feel about capital punishment. Perhaps some of those "gentle mothers" you condemn buried a child that someone like Bundy took from them. Bundy & people like him get what they deserve. What is morally offensive to me is the web sites devoted to promoting these criminals, the bleeding hearts who think my tax dollars should pay room, board, computer time & in some cases for a college education. Life in prison is still life, explain that to a mother who has buried her child at 17. By the way, it isn't just Texas where attorneys sleep, it is all over the place, Texas is just politically incorrect enough to execute criminals.

Hey, I can understand about losing childrenand family members- losing anybody. Anger, outrage, desire for retribution are perfectly natural responses to crime and violence (did you read my post or just kinda skim?).

No, the gentle kind people who turned into bloodthirsty sadists are people I know well. They didn't lose anyone. How many times does the mother have to kill the killer in order to get her child back?

You think prison is a resort? When was the last time you toured a maximum security prison for violent offenders? It's not quite the community detention center.

Politically incorrect? No- in America, most people favor capital punishment. I am the one who is incorrect for suggesting that we join the rest of the first world in abandoning the death penalty.

 

[riff]

I have faith in our system, it's the only one we have and it seems much fairer than some other systems. It has its difficulties, one of which is too many lawyers, but it does have its upsides too. If you don't like the system there are three choices, live with it, change it, or leave. In this country we can do all three. In some countries you can only live with it.

At least you can appreciate that it is a FLAWed system. And I do all I can to change it- I can assure you. Letters to the legislature, the Governor, and money to my state's Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty.

 

[riff]

Maybe in places like Iran, Iraq, or someplace like that.

for everybody that is against capital punishment you can pay my share of it to keep them alive and send me the money that is going out of my taxes to keep them alive then it will be fair.

Capital punishment.

Hypodermic syringe $ 0.25
Sodium whatever-it-is $ 10.00
Cremation and disposal $1000.00
----------------------------------
Total $1010.25


Keep 'em alive.

Per one year $30,000
average life expectancey 30 years
-----------------------------------
Total $900,000

Get rid of 'em much less money out of my pocket

Bobtoad- Have you ever heard of the right to appeal and due process? In America, you are innocent until proven guilty. Once you have been found guilty, you have the right to appeal the lower court's decision to a higher court. As an American citizen, it is your right to do this. You may think it is something set up to protect the criminal, but it is really something to protect good citizens from the possiblity of corrupt or incompetent judicial and legal officals.

It takes time and money to exercise this right. The average total cost of killing people with capital punishment is higher than incarceration for life.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs2.html

 

[riff]

pull out the needle right then and there.

Does the phrase somehow give you pleasure? Curious? Do you have a needle fetish?

 

[riff]

I still say 2 years of appeals if you can't prove a killer innocent in 2 years then either they are guilty or you were not trying very hard.

About the money, seeing as I have to pay out money and we all do Us and canada in taxes I would rather it be used for roads, schools, hospitals not giving some killer free food, free cable, free education, free room and board, free porn, free cigs, should I go on?

Criminal Killers have a better standard of living in jail than 3/4to 78 of the people on the outside working our ass off to keeep killers alive.

Bobtoad.... oh... nevermind

 

[Bobtoad777]

riff then send me a check for my part of keeping them alive cause i am sick of paying them to live a better life than me and rewarding them for killing people.


hey that an idea I think i will go kill someone for the reward of a guarenteed roof over my head, free food, free pron, free drugs, free medical, free everything piad for by who guess who, the family of the person i murdered. yeehaw i am gonna go out on a shooting spree

as i said before if a killer can not be found innocent in two years you didnt ry to dang hard or hes guilty.

 

[riff]

Samurai,

I do have faith in the system itself for the most part. I wouldn't want to go into law if I didn't. I am aware that human beings are not infallible, and that people can be wrongly accused of murder, it's happened before. For disputes on paper, patents, property rights, and contract law, it is comparatively easy to pick out the victim, and if a mistake is made, it can clearly be rectified. But when someone is accused of a murder found guilty and then killed, there is no real recourse if later we find that that person was innocent. As much as I'd like for somepeople to disappear from society, I will not take their life with either my words or my hands.

Very well-stated. I admire your position. I hate being so serious in a place like this but when it becomes a discussion about "We The People" killing people for whatever reason, I become seriously involved.