Can commas be allowed where it normally shouldn't in order to add a pause in fiction

[garbonzo607]

I know adding commas to a compound predicate is generally frowned upon, but can it be allowed sometimes for style?

Here are some examples where I'm not sure it matters so much:

I got an uneasy feeling in my stomach, but chalked it up to John’s call earlier.

Despite how I feel about dealing with idiots, I get good metrics on our call system, and usually get good ratings on my performance.

Even I take notice when a woman walks in, though I don’t go out of my way to start a conversation with her, or comment on her perfume.

He’s fair, and listens to anything we have to say or might suggest.

She was beautiful and skinny, and looked out of place amongst the other men.

She had shocking green eyes, and was the only person without a blank look on their face.

She’d just confessed to trying to rob someone, and all in the blank voice of someone who didn’t care.

John didn’t like the way I was talking to him either, since I’m only a captain.

I find it flows better....

 

[Green_Knight]

I know adding commas to a compound predicate is generally frowned upon, but can it be allowed sometimes for style?

Here are some examples where I'm not sure it matters so much:

I find it flows better....

Commas drift in and out of fashion. 150 years ago they'd be splattered across prose like machine gun bullets. Nowadays it can seem like a heinous crime to use one. Even 50 years ago I was taught to put a comma at any point where someone reading my text aloud would take a breath. Now that is deprecated.

There are one or two hard and fast rules, mostly about where not to use commas. Other than that, it's a matter of using a comma where it helps to make sense of what you're writing or where it enhances the meaning.

In most of the examples you give, the commas aren't needed. For example:

Despite how I feel about dealing with idiots, I get good metrics on our call system [no comma] and usually get good ratings on my performance.​

In a few of them, rewording (in some cases the two parts of the example sentences don't hang well together) or the use of dashes or semi-colons might be a better option, such as:

She’d just confessed to trying to rob someone – and all in the blank voice of someone who didn’t care.​

 

[Nezhul]

A lot of the time you use a comma before "and", where there is a verb on both sides of it, which is kind of the rule anyway, no?

Most of those look fine to me, but some rub me the wrong way big time.

 

[garbonzo607]

A lot of the time you use a comma before "and", where there is a verb on both sides of it, which is kind of the rule anyway, no?

Most of those look fine to me, but some rub me the wrong way big time.

Ah, I didn't know that, thank you. I've deleted those. How about what's left?

 

[Nezhul]

Ah, I didn't know that, thank you. I've deleted those. How about what's left?

no, don't get my word on it. I may be wrong, I just think I'm right =)

Commas in English are tricky. There are a few set-in-stone rules, like commas in dialogue attributions, but all the rest is vague, left to the style rather than grammar.

 

[garbonzo607]

Commas drift in and out of fashion. 150 years ago they'd be splattered across prose like machine gun bullets. Nowadays it can seem like a heinous crime to use one. Even 50 years ago I was taught to put a comma at any point where someone reading my text aloud would take a breath. Now that is deprecated.

There are one or two hard and fast rules, mostly about where not to use commas. Other than that, it's a matter of using a comma where it helps to make sense of what you're writing or where it enhances the meaning.

In most of the examples you give, the commas aren't needed. For example:

Despite how I feel about dealing with idiots, I get good metrics on our call system [no comma] and usually get good ratings on my performance.​

In a few of them, rewording (in some cases the two parts of the example sentences don't hang well together) or the use of dashes or semi-colons might be a better option, such as:

She’d just confessed to trying to rob someone – and all in the blank voice of someone who didn’t care.​

Perhaps there does need to be a rewrite instead. On all of the sentences that are left, if I were to narrate the story myself, I would pause at those spots. I think the commas can be left in order to better understand the tone / inflection of what is said. If I speak it aloud, there would be a difference between saying, "She was only six years old, and very inquisitive," and, "She was only six years old and very inquisitive."

There's a slight pause there when I animate the story in my head and that's how I think the readers should read it rather than plowing straight through all in one breath.

Wouldn't it be overuse if I replaced them all with dashes or semicolons? I know some people get perturbed about proper semicolon usage and would rather you not use them at all if you can't use them properly.

 

[Green_Knight]

Perhaps there does need to be a rewrite instead. On all of the sentences that are left, if I were to narrate the story myself, I would pause at those spots. I think the commas can be left in order to better understand the tone / inflection of what is said. If I speak it aloud, there would be a difference between saying, "She was only six years old, and very inquisitive," and, "She was only six years old and very inquisitive."

There's a slight pause there when I animate the story in my head and that's how I think the readers should read it rather than plowing straight through all in one breath.

Wouldn't it be overuse if I replaced them all with dashes or semicolons? I know some people get perturbed about proper semicolon usage and would rather you not use them at all if you can't use them properly.

Dashes can be used as an alternative to parentheses (be those parentheses a pair of commas, a pair of brackets, etc), to make a more pronounced break than made by a comma, or to add emphasis or make a contrast. The latter was my reasoning when I suggested 'She’d just confessed to trying to rob someone – and all in the blank voice of someone who didn’t care.' A similar use occurs in the sentence 'In England, justice is open to all – like the Ritz Hotel'. A semicolon marks a break that needs something stronger than a comma but less than a full stop; some writers say you should never use them but I just have.

I know of authors who seem to use dashes in huge quantities but I can understand your concerns.

 

[Green_Knight]

This is quite a useful guide to the use of commas in both English and American, starting on page 117. It takes a few seconds to download. It should open automatically if your browser's appropriately set up.

 

[sr71plt]

In some of the cases giving in the examples--where a separation does seem desirable--an em dash would be effective, but all of the examples given might throw the flow of the read off if a comma is used. U.S. publishers are pretty strict in keeping treatment of compound sentences with two independent clauses separate from those with an independent and dependent clause. They want to make sure that the read doesn't lose concentration on the content by mentally looking for a verb in a dependent clause because a comma was used.

The last example given has two independent clauses, so the comma is appropriate.

Under the guidelines of all U.S. publishers I've edited for the commas would come out in all of those examples but the last one. It wouldn't be permitted as an author style quirk. You can probably do it here, though, if you like.

 

[garbonzo607]

In some of the cases giving in the examples--where a separation does seem desirable--an em dash would be effective, but all of the examples given might throw the flow of the read off if a comma is used. U.S. publishers are pretty strict in keeping treatment of compound sentences with two independent clauses separate from those with an independent and dependent clause. They want to make sure that the read doesn't lose concentration on the content by mentally looking for a verb in a dependent clause because a comma was used.

The last example given has two independent clauses, so the comma is appropriate.

Under the guidelines of all U.S. publishers I've edited for the commas would come out in all of those examples but the last one. It wouldn't be permitted as an author style quirk. You can probably do it here, though, if you like.

Thank you for your experience.

Like I said, I think it's meant to throw the flow off. We don't always talk with a straight flow like that. I can say, "I hate the cold with a passion, but love the heat," or, "I hate the cold with a passion but love the heat." It's two different speech patterns if you try and say it aloud. I can even record something if you want proof, but it seems obvious enough. How else do you write a pause like that? I don't see another way to keep that, unless all of these sentences should be rewritten?

Should there just be dashes instead?

I hate the cold with a passion - but love the heat.

I got an uneasy feeling in my stomach - but chalked it up to John’s call earlier.

Despite how I feel about dealing with idiots, I get good metrics on our call system - and usually get good ratings on my performance.

Even I take notice when a woman walks in, though I don’t go out of my way to start a conversation with her - or comment on her perfume.

He’s fair - and listens to anything we have to say or might suggest.

She was beautiful and skinny - and looked out of place amongst the other men.

She had shocking green eyes - and was the only person without a blank look on their face.

She’d just confessed to trying to rob someone - and all in the blank voice of someone who didn’t care.

 

[sr71plt]

I posted what a U.S. publisher's editor would do and gave the publishers' reasoning why they would do it. This doesn't bind you in what you do in a Literotica submission.

First, that's not an em dash that you've put in your examples. So, a U.S. publisher would change that--an em dash, with no open spaces on either side.

The examples you gave would likely be rendered this way:

I got an uneasy feeling in my stomach but chalked it up to John’s call earlier.

Despite how I feel about dealing with idiots, I get good metrics on our call system, and I usually get good ratings on my performance.

Even I take notice when a woman walks in, though I don’t go out of my way to start a conversation with her or to comment on her perfume.

He’s fair and listens to anything we have to say or might suggest.

She was beautiful and skinny and looked out of place amongst the other men. [other problems with this sentence. The "other" word assumes "she" is a man.]

She had shocking green eyes and was the only person without a blank look on their face.

She’d just confessed to trying to rob someone and all in the blank voice of someone who didn’t care.

I see no reason to force a pause in any of those sentences.

 

[SimonDoom]

One of the reasons that a comma "feels" right in your sentences is that several of them combine clauses with linking verbs with clauses with active verbs but omit the subjects. As a result, they lack parallelism.

For example:

He's fair, and listens to anything we have to say or might suggest.

It's irregular to say "He is fair and listens" because you are combining the linking verb "is" and the active verb "listens" into a compound predicate. It lacks parallelism.

In this case, you should write "He's fair, and he listens to anything we have to say or might suggest." Then you have two independent clauses, and a comma is appropriate.

Or you could write:

He's fair and inclined to listen to anything we have to say or might suggest.

The problem with that sentence is you have a single predicate adjective "fair" being made parallel to a long predicate adjective phrase beginning with "inclined", and it's a bit awkward. So the better option is the first one I gave, above.

The same approach would apply to some of the other sentences you've cited, but not all of them.

 

[garbonzo607]

I posted what a U.S. publisher's editor would do and gave the publishers' reasoning why they would do it. This doesn't bind you in what you do in a Literotica submission.

First, that's not an em dash that you've put in your examples. So, a U.S. publisher would change that--an em dash, with no open spaces on either side.

The examples you gave would likely be rendered this way:

I got an uneasy feeling in my stomach but chalked it up to John’s call earlier.

Despite how I feel about dealing with idiots, I get good metrics on our call system, and I usually get good ratings on my performance.

Even I take notice when a woman walks in, though I don’t go out of my way to start a conversation with her or to comment on her perfume.

He’s fair and listens to anything we have to say or might suggest.

She was beautiful and skinny and looked out of place amongst the other men. [other problems with this sentence. The "other" word assumes "she" is a man.]

She had shocking green eyes and was the only person without a blank look on their face.

She’d just confessed to trying to rob someone and all in the blank voice of someone who didn’t care.

I see no reason to force a pause in any of those sentences.

I received this message:

Even the most prescriptive grammar rules vary person to person and certainly country to country, so when it comes to fiction, you can really do what ever you want. It's like telling an abstract painter to be more realistic. One can't really standardize art.

Plus there are many examples of "ungrammatical" writers.

Cormac McCarthy is famously anti-punctuation. Don Delillo doesn't put commas in compound sentences. Virginia Woolf and certainly James Joyce are full of unconventional grammar.

Did their publisher let them slide because of their notoriety or something?

There isn't a reason to force a pause other than style.

What you wrote clearly works as well and may be more kosher, but it isn't the way I envision it in my head. Isn't written language supposed to accurately translate the spoken word? So why, according to these publishers, is there no way to add a pause to a person's speech? For instance, many people use seemingly unnecessary commas in order to imitate Christopher Walken's speech patterns, yet it's not really unnecessary if it's trying to get across what he sounds like, is it? It interrupts the flow because it's meant to. That's what I mean.

 

[SimonDoom]

I posted what a U.S. publisher's editor would do and gave the publishers' reasoning why they would do it. This doesn't bind you in what you do in a Literotica submission.

First, that's not an em dash that you've put in your examples. So, a U.S. publisher would change that--an em dash, with no open spaces on either side.

The examples you gave would likely be rendered this way:

I got an uneasy feeling in my stomach but chalked it up to John’s call earlier.

Despite how I feel about dealing with idiots, I get good metrics on our call system, and I usually get good ratings on my performance.

Even I take notice when a woman walks in, though I don’t go out of my way to start a conversation with her or to comment on her perfume.

He’s fair and listens to anything we have to say or might suggest.

She was beautiful and skinny and looked out of place amongst the other men. [other problems with this sentence. The "other" word assumes "she" is a man.]

She had shocking green eyes and was the only person without a blank look on their face.

She’d just confessed to trying to rob someone and all in the blank voice of someone who didn’t care.

I see no reason to force a pause in any of those sentences.

Agree with the first three but not the last four. I think the last four should be written as follows:

He’s fair, and he listens to anything we have to say or might suggest. [add comma and "he" to make it parallel]

She was beautiful and skinny, and she looked out of place amongst the men. [add comma and "she" to make parallel; get rid of "other"]

She had shocking green eyes, and she was the only person without a blank look on their face. [add comma and "she" to make parallel]

She’d just confessed to trying to rob someone, and all in the blank voice of someone who didn’t care. [I would leave the comma in, because the phrase beginning with "and all" has no verb; it's basically an adverbial phrase that modifies "confessed", so it's appropriate to set it off from the word "someone" with a comma. The word "and" could be eliminated, too, but I think that's more of a stylistic call.]

 

[sr71plt]

Yours is correct. But my editorial training is to stay as close to the author's original as possible. That was possible here and still be correct and clear.

 

[SimonDoom]

Yours is correct. But my editorial training is to stay as close to the author's original as possible. That was possible here and still be correct and clear.

A fair point. I have no experience or training editing other people's fiction.

 

[garbonzo607]

Yours is correct. But my editorial training is to stay as close to the author's original as possible. That was possible here and still be correct and clear.

Thank you, and SimonDoom.

Agree with the first three but not the last four. I think the last four should be written as follows:

These make sense. Is it okay to have two pronouns in a row like that? It's not repetitive?

Received this message:

I'm confused by that person's advice because by definition a compound sentence is two independent clauses. If a sentence has an independent and a dependent clause, it is a complex sentence. Moreover, a dependent clause can totally have a verb; it just can't be a sentence alone. I'm confused.

 

[SimonDoom]

Thank you, and SimonDoom.



These make sense. Is it okay to have two pronouns in a row like that? It's not repetitive?

Received this message:

Yes, it's OK. In some cases it might be better if you use a noun the first time and the corresponding pronoun the second time. That way you avoid repetition.

E.g.,

"Sam’s fair, and he listens to anything we have to say or might suggest.

 

[Hypoxia]

Sez an old humorist:

I never did learn how to spell, – but I did learn the typesetter's rule, – "Set up type as long as you can hold your breath without turning blue in the face, then put in a comma. When you gape, put in a semicolon, and when you want to sneeze, that's the time to make a paragraph."

Your guidelines may vary.

 

[sr71plt]

Received this message:

Yeah, the e-mail you received is correct. A compound sentence is multiple independent clauses and a complex sentence is a mix of independent and dependent clauses. We weren't being precise enough.

 

[SimonDoom]

Received this message:

I'm confused by that person's advice because by definition a compound sentence is two independent clauses. If a sentence has an independent and a dependent clause, it is a complex sentence. Moreover, a dependent clause can totally have a verb; it just can't be a sentence alone. I'm confused.

Your seven sentences are a mix of different types of sentences.

I got an uneasy feeling in my stomach but chalked it up to John’s call earlier. [This is a simple sentence with a compound predicate; no comma is needed.]

He’s fair, and listens to anything we have to say or might suggest. [As written this also is a simple sentence with a compound but nonparallel predicate; it's better written as a compound sentence with two independent clauses joined by "and."]

John didn’t like the way I was talking to him either, since I’m only a captain. [This is a complex sentence because the clause beginning with "since" is a dependent clause]

She’d just confessed to trying to rob someone, and all in the blank voice of someone who didn’t care. [This is neither a compound nor a complex sentence, because the part beginning with "and" is not a clause at all; it's a phrase that modifies "confessed."]

 

[HectorBidon]

Sr71plt and SimonDoom have nicely discussed the punctuational aspects of this question. But I wonder if the crux of the problem doesn't lie a bit deeper than punctuation. What the OP is trying to do is to convey the conceptual "pause" that separates the different components of a complex thought. This is as much a stylistic issue as a punctuational one.

We write "He turned off the light and went to bed" as a simple sentence (without a comma) because the two actions are closely related. There is no need for a "pause."

But, although grammatically correct, we wouldn't write "He came, saw, and conquered." These are three independent ideas. Each warrants its own independent clause.

I think that if the reason for the "pause" is that the second part of the sentence presents a dramatic change in the trajectory of the original line of thought, then the second part should have some grammatical independence.

So, for example:

>>> "Even I take notice when a woman walks in, though I don’t go out of my way to start a conversation with her, or comment on her perfume."

If "starting a conversation" and "commenting on her perfume" are just two examples from a longer list of things that could be mentioned ("complimenting her on her outfit," etc, etc), then the two actions are essentially equivalent and there is no need for a "pause:"

"... though I don't go out of my way to start a conversation with her or comment on her perfume."

But, if her perfume features importantly elsewhere in the story and that is why it is being brought up here, then perhaps even a bigger "pause" than a comma is needed:

'... though I don't go out of my way to start a conversation with her. Or to comment on her perfume." (An em dash could also be used.)

>>> "Despite how I feel about dealing with idiots, I get good metrics on our call system, and usually get good ratings on my performance."

Why are the metrics and the performance being called out separately? If there is no important reason, then no "pause" is necessary:

"... I get good metrics on our call system and on my performance."

But if there is a reason, then it should be spelled out more clearly. Is it because you don't always get good reports and that fact will feature importantly in the story? Then perhaps you should emphasize "usually:"

"... I get good metrics on our call system--and, usually, on my performance."

>>> "She was beautiful and skinny, and looked out of place amongst the men."

Are you just saying that she stood out because she was more beautiful and skinnier than the men? Then you can delete the comma. Or are you commenting on her state of mind at this particular occasion as well as her physical attributes. These are two separate ideas and should be in separate sentences (or at least separate independent clauses).

So, basically, different degrees of "pause" can be achieved with standard punctuation by choosing the appropriate structure (compound predicate, compound sentence, em-dash-delimited phrase, multiple sentences).

 

[Green_Knight]

Sr71plt and SimonDoom have nicely discussed the punctuational aspects of this question. But I wonder if the crux of the problem doesn't lie a bit deeper than punctuation. What the OP is trying to do is to convey the conceptual "pause" that separates the different components of a complex thought. This is as much a stylistic issue as a punctuational one...

I like your thinking.

The sole purpose of punctuation is to help the reader understand the meaning you want to convey, not to get 'No errors' when you run the text through the rulebook of Grammarly.

As I pointed out earlier, punctuation conventions change over time and the trend has been to use fewer commas as the decades have passed. To give just one example, this:

If we can only get to the old tannery, before we break down!​

was once seen as acceptable but the comma would not be seen as necessary (or even desirable) today. Regardless of the rules, commas are increasingly seen as necessary only where their use avoids ambiguity. Of course, that means that authors, instead of learning a set of rules and following them slavishly, must now think more carefully about what they're writing and the way in which their words might be interpreted (or misinterpreted) by readers.

 

[SimonDoom]

I like your thinking.

The sole purpose of punctuation is to help the reader understand the meaning you want to convey, not to get 'No errors' when you run the text through the rulebook of Grammarly.

As I pointed out earlier, punctuation conventions change over time and the trend has been to use fewer commas as the decades have passed. To give just one example, this:

If we can only get to the old tannery, before we break down!​

was once seen as acceptable but the comma would not be seen as necessary (or even desirable) today. Regardless of the rules, commas are increasingly seen as necessary only where their use avoids ambiguity. Of course, that means that authors, instead of learning a set of rules and following them slavishly, must now think more carefully about what they're writing and the way in which their words might be interpreted (or misinterpreted) by readers.

I agree 100% that the purpose of punctuation is to help convey meaning, but that's the purpose of grammar rules generally, so long as they're rightly understood.

I'm not sure I agree with your last statement. The modern trend away from too much comma use makes the task of using commas more clear-cut and simpler. The first rule is to use commas where the rules of grammar dictate their use. The second is, in cases where the use is discretionary, not to use a comma unless there's a good reason to.

If you look at the sentences that have been offered as examples throughout this thread, in most cases the question of comma use can be decided simply by understanding exactly what's going on grammatically in the sentence. About half the cases can be fixed by addressing the problem of non-parallelism. It's a very common problem; I've found it in my own writing.

For example, the sentence

She was beautiful and skinny, and looked out of place amongst the other men.

isn't parallel. It can be fixed by adding "she" before "looked" and deleting "other." Once you do that, you have two independent clauses, and you need the comma. The comma alone doesn't fix the problem of lack of parallelism. But solving the grammatical problem answers the question of the comma. In this case, too, the grammatically correct solution is also the solution that enhances the meaning of the sentence, because it eliminates ambiguity in the relationship between "was beautiful and skinny" and "looked out of place."

I think your example of the sentence about the tannery is a good example of a subtler case. "before we break down" is a phrase that modifies the verb "get", but it's separated from the word by several words. It doesn't modify "tannery." I wouldn't put a comma there, but I can see the sense of another person's decision to put it there.

 

[sr71plt]

I haven't seen any trend in U.S. publishing away from full use of commas--more than one would in general writing. The Chicago Manual of Style backed off on comma use on short introductory phrases (while being fuzzy about how short it should be not be need to use the comma), but that was over a decade ago. I think Green_Knight is only consulting himself.