buthery carnage massacre slaughter

[Senna Jawa]

butchery carnage massacre slaughter

If it continues like this I will be left with no votes. Many old votes were removed in the past few days. Since I had only a few per poem to start with, now 23 of my submissions have no vote, and 44 just 1 vote. Also 44 received 2 votes, 26 got 3 votes, four have 4 votes, and one has 5. That's all.

 

[_Land]

Are any of the ones that have no vote, poems submitted in the last two weeks? I have voted on every poem(well almost) posted in the new poems thread. Kind of curious!

If it continues like this I will be left with no votes. Many old votes were removed in the past few days. Since I had only a few per poem to start with, now 23 of my submissions have no vote, and 44 just 1 vote. Also 44 received 2 votes, 26 got 3 votes, four have 4 votes, and one has 5. That's all.

 

[Rybka]

If it continues like this I will be left with no votes. Many old votes were removed in the past few days.

If they were low votes, then they were not removed, just transferred. - Either that or the "one monster" has spawned and there is a whole bunch of "onesie" and "twosie" beasties running ravenously around.

Regards,           Rybka

PS: the "&NoBackSPace" trick doesn't always work on the poetry posting board.

 

[Senna Jawa]

Re: Re: butchery carnage massacre slaughter

Are any of the ones that have no vote, poems submitted in the last two weeks? I have voted on every poem(well almost) posted in the new poems thread. Kind of curious!

Majority of my voteless submissions are from May. There are 16 of them. Five are from June, and two are form August (both from Aug. 26). No, none from September.

In particular, my contest winning "summer end" had but two votes (one from me, I think), both were 5. Now there is no vote there. I am sure that Eve is ready to ask me about any abuse on my part Possibly all or almost all my own votes were removed (no, I didn't vote more than once on any poem).

BTW, other sites, when you voted on a piece and view it again, inform you that you have voted and how, instead of displaying an invitation to vote. That place which shows bullet selection for the grade could display a message like "You have voted 4 on this submission". One reason (minor though) that I avoid voting is that I often would prefer to vote on my third or fourth reading. By that time I may not remember if I voted on that piece. And it is unpleasant to accidentally attempt to vote for the second time and only then to get a message about repetitious attempt.

_Land, it's great that you read extensively and vote.

Best regards,

 

[Senna Jawa]

Re: butchery carnage massacre slaughter

If they were low votes, then they were not removed, just transferred. - Either that or the "one monster" has spawned and there is a whole bunch of "onesie" and "twosie" beasties running ravenously around.

Regards,           Rybka

PS: the "&NoBackSPace" trick doesn't always work on the poetry posting board.

I had all kinds of votes erased, from 1 to 5. For instance, at least three of my poems had 2 votes with average 5. (i.e. both votes were 5), and now they are voteless. They are my very first submission "Poe tr y", then "polynomials" and "summer end". And more 5s were erased.

Possibly votes for my submissions feed more than one person. 1s go to Rybka, 2s go to Tooth, 3s go to Threesome, 4s to Quadruple, and 5s to Angeline

Don't worry, Rybka. Low votes are as much complement, if not more so, than 5s. Here is a table of my poems which scored average 1. and 1.5 in one case. Your poems are in an excellent company! Well, you see that many votes are upside down. The consecutive columns stand for the average vote, number of votes, views, submission date, category (Erotic v. Non-erotic), and title.

• 1.5 2 117 (5-21)N     basketball
• 1.0 1 119 (5-25)N     dog & night
• 1.0 2 137 (5-18)E     life is a private party
• 1.0 1 193 (5-25)E     your lips
• 1.0 1 157 (5-17)E     [i dare...]

Those who have any clue about poetry can see how funny votes are. It's outright incredible Why people deaf and blind to poetry waste their time on poetry boards is beyond me!

For the sake of completness, here are my poems voted on average 2.:

• 2.   1 130 (6-14)N     all night
• 2.   1   89 (6-11)N     chesstanka
• 2.   2 181 (5-21)E     friendship
• 2.   2   31 (9-02)N     gargle
• 2.   2 116 (5-17)N     jazz
• 2.   3 133 (5-15)N     monk
• 2.   4 123 (5-18)N     San Jose
• 2.   1   80 (6-11)N     [my grown up...]
• 2.   1   84 (6-09)N     [people...]
• 2.   1   86 (6-11)N     [the office keys...]
• 2.   1 119 (6-11)N     [what if...]

In particular, all my sig poems (see my signature below) are voted 1 or 2 on average. Actually, all poems listed in the two tables above are strong, and some of them (the sig poems and more) are advanced. It's not clear which votes are the top and which are the bottom, and on average they are just white noise (well, not always so pristine virgin white ).

Rybka, I use Literotica's editor. It is not the most convenient tool (the window is smallish, as customary for such editors) but I think that it allows about all html constructions.

Regards,

 

[Guest]

Votes

O.K. - Now I have had a few votes disappear, mostly low numbers so I won't complain, but not all.

Looking at your vote averages and numbers I can see that some of my votes have disappeared. I have not voted on all of your poems, but I never gave you below a three (meaning: "average for you"), and I recognize several works to which I know I gave a four or a five.

Rybka, I use Literotica's editor. It is not the most convenient tool (the window is smallish, as customary for such editors) but I think that it allows about all html constructions.

O.K. Where do I find it? The last poem I posted had an entire line dropped because I tried to use the spacing trick. It showed up fine in "Preview" and in HTML mode on my computer, but not in the final post.

Regards, Rybka

P.S. What did you think of My Father's Sky - Growling

 

[karmadog]

I just voted on your sig line poems. 5's and a 4.

I couldn't remember where you discussed your poem basketball, so I'll apologise for bringing it up here.

the round ball
bouncing off the rim
in the lights of the arena --
it may go either way

As I recall you mentioned that you believed that this was one of your most advanced poems. I think you said that the basketball rolling around the rim was an analogy for justice.

I don't see how you can expect a reader to reach that point. I just see a ball on a basketball rim. In my opinion, this poem goes too zen. So far zen, that the reader must be in your head to know what you're writing about.

It seems to me that it is just as valid to say that the ball represents a pubescent kids sexuality, the arena lights the glare of teenage opinion, or parental disapproval.

I realize that many people say that any poem might be interpreted many ways, but when a poem is so vague that all interpretations are valid, it becomes invalid to interpret at all.

I know you disagree with me, so please explain. Do not use the words 'skald' or 'kennings', or any other obscure words, please. You know that I am a beginner. Also, I'll stipulate to deep ignorance, so no need to mention it.

 

[Senna Jawa]

I just voted on your sig line poems. 5's and a 4.

Thank you, Karmadog. I never ask to vote or not to vote on my poems. I appreciate your gesture anyway (you have made bitching by me more difficult though ).

I couldn't remember where you discussed your poem basketball, so I'll apologise for bringing it up here.

Karmadog, you are 11 months on Literotica, and you have 629 posts to your credit at this moment. Use "search"! (or don't--just don't apologise ).

As I recall you mentioned that you believed that this was one of your most advanced poems.

Just the opposite!!! I said that it is a simple poem. Indeed, how can you have anything simpler in poetry?!

Where is the reading comprehension skill these days? Just a bare minimum. First Judo and "logarithmic in a compact car", then TheDR4KE and "time on your hands", now you and my "basketball" commentary. No wonder that many poems have glaring weaknesses, which is the other side of the coin.

I think you said that the basketball rolling around the rim was an analogy for justice.

I don't see how you can expect a reader to reach that point. I just see a ball on a basketball rim. In my opinion, this poem goes too zen. So far zen, that the reader must be in your head to know what you're writing about.

It seems to me that it is just as valid to say that the ball represents a pubescent kids sexuality, the arena lights the glare of teenage opinion, or parental disapproval.

I realize that many people say that any poem might be interpreted many ways, but when a poem is so vague that all interpretations are valid, it becomes invalid to interpret at all.

I know you disagree with me, so please explain. Do not use the words 'skald' or 'kennings', or any other obscure words, please. You know that I am a beginner. Also, I'll stipulate to deep ignorance, so no need to mention it.

Your (half-serious) comment illustrates a common problem with poetry authors and readers. Poems are often either trivially obvious or otherwise obscure and quite nonsensical. In the latter case readers provide interpretations according to their own agenda, interpretations which do not fit the poem. Furthermore, no interpretation fits those poems. Everybody is happy and important, everybody is bluffing. Everybody, authors and readers, are happily patting each other on their backs, feel sophisticated and poetic, but it is an intellectually dishonest business and disgusting.

This situation hurts poetry, it hurts good, ambitious poems. Readers are not able, do not even attempt to tell apart poems which make sense from poems which do not. When a poem is not instantly obvious then readers do not assume that such a poem makes sense. So, they start their nonsensical interpretations, along their own agendas, just as in the case of the poor poems. Majority of the readers have no reading skill. Their brain muscle which is responsible for an alert reading is atrophied.

Now back to the poem ("basketball"). I wrote that "Even if you don't pay attention to the metaphor it is a strong poem".   Read the poem as it is. Sports are common and well known. Certainly fans know that what counts is talent + training (hard work -- I wish poets knew it: talent + hard work)... They also know that when teams or competitors are well matched then the outcome of a game which decides on their fate, on advancing in play-offs, may depend on one final shot. Everything may hang on it, on a fraction of a second. And this drama my poem presents as clearly and dramatically as possible. There is no need to say a word more. Thus don't compare it with any Freud and similar interpretations. What I just said is in the poem, unavoidable. It is known in every sport, in every competition, not just in basketball. It is UNIVERSAL. Yes, work, talent etc, it is all important but sometimes your zillion dollar fate depends on one lucky penny.

A reader does not have to think consciously about justice and chaos (fate). But sports are known for being more fair than regular life. They have well defined rules. Everybody is supposed to play by them. When you are under that basket then it does not matter that your uncle went to high school with the vice-president of the USA. Sports are used in education as a metaphor for justice. Etc. etc. (In Polish we have a saying "the ball is round", which means both that it can bounce in any direction, but also that it is just, that it is not biased. Is there any saying like this in English?).

Show me a poem which is technically as pure as mine, and which is loaded with drama as much as this "basketball", and I will say: yes, quite a poem.

BTW, I do wonder whether or not I need the last line in basketball. Actually, I know very well that I should get rid of it. It's just a bit difficult, for psychological reasons, to make such a drastic change after so many years. I'll do it one day, the poem will still gain.

--------------

Let me use this chance to ask you and other participants a question. When I encounter words which are orthographically tricky to me then I check them in a dictionary. I am a poor speller but over years I have developed this useful habit (and an instinct for spotting a trouble). Furthermore, I did encounter the phrase "upside-down" as well as "upside down" in the past more than once. Nevertheless, when I wrote tea cup... I didn't bother with any dictionary. I wrote "... up side down", along my artistic intuition. Someone pointed to the incorrectness of my spelling and somehow I switched to the orthographically/grammatically correct "upside-down" adverb. I gave in to a kind of intimidation, I guess. Then a friend, whom I respect as a poet, told me how much he liked the "incorrect" original and its "incorrectness". Should I switch back? (I hesitate because it is not pleasant to be accused of unorthography).

Best regards,

 

[karmadog]

Thank you, SJ for your explanation. I have never heard (that I recall) the sports as metaphor for justice thing. Perhaps that would have made a difference in my reading.

When a poem is not instantly obvious then readers do not assume that such a poem makes sense.

Think where you are! Most of them don't. But I spent the time to look for the things you said were there. I didn't find them, but I see now what you were saying. It's still not a favorite of mine.

With regards to the 'up side down' vs 'upside-down' vs 'upside down' controversy, I think you should consider how you want it read. 'up side down' I would tend to read more slowly with clearly seperated syllables. 'upside-down' would be much tighter--almost rushed. 'upside down' would have the first word quick then a slight pause before 'down'. How do you want it to sound?

Thanks again for taking the time to respond. It was illuminating.

 

[Laurel]

Hi all,

Our current voting fraud detection system is relatively new (under a year old), and there are a lot of votes on the site. The system will occasionally find a cluster of fraud votes from months ago and dredge these up for our review. If we find them to be fraud, they are removed, no matter if they're 1s, 2s, 3s, 4s, or 5s. I hope this helps. We want you all to have the most accurate vote totals possible, for what it's worth. Thanks for your interest and your hard work.

 

[Rybka]

Thanks Laurel!

Hi all,

Our current voting fraud detection system is relatively new (under a year old), and there are a lot of votes on the site. The system will occasionally find a cluster of fraud votes from months ago and dredge these up for our review. If we find them to be fraud, they are removed, no matter if they're 1s, 2s, 3s, 4s, or 5s. I hope this helps. We want you all to have the most accurate vote totals possible, for what it's worth. Thanks for your interest and your hard work.

What constitutes a "fraud vote"? - If more than one person uses the same computer/server is anything after the first considered fraud?

Regards,                 Rybka

 

[Senna Jawa]

Hi all,

Our current voting fraud detection system is relatively new (under a year old), and there are a lot of votes on the site. The system will occasionally find a cluster of fraud votes from months ago and dredge these up for our review. If we find them to be fraud, they are removed, no matter if they're 1s, 2s, 3s, 4s, or 5s. I hope this helps. We want you all to have the most accurate vote totals possible, for what it's worth. Thanks for your interest and your hard work.

Laurel, what you just said is truly offensive and completely false in the case of 5s awarded to my poems. I don't know about low votes, possibly some of them were "awarded" to my poems in bad faith (for wrong reasons), possibly not. But there was no abuse about 5s. Why would I or anybody commit a fraud to award to my poem a 5? None of my poems was anywhere near to getting 10 votes except for one poem which, yes, had 9 votes as late as of Sept 15, but a low average of 2.89 anyway. (BTW, nine votes against 1591 views is not excessive). How a vote 5 for "Poe tr y" was an abuse? Or for "blue sky", or for "logarithmic in a compact car", or for "summer end" (which just won a competition judged by experts), or for "polynomials", or for "willow girl", or for ... or for any of them!

I find your statement, Laurel, when addressing me and votes 5 for my poems, very arrogant, insensitive, void of any merit. Please, apologize to me, and do it cleanly, without any ambiguity. I want you to admit that your suspicions were, in the case of votes 5 awarded to my poems, 100% unfounded, that there was no rational reason for your suspicions, and that removing those votes was an irrational error on your part. Please, apologize to me for that and for your statement above, in this thread.

(You don't need to bother with restoring any of my wrongly removed votes, I don't care. One of my best poems has only two votes, both of them 1. It is a badge of honor to me ).

Regards,

 

[Senna Jawa]

Thank you, SJ for your explanation. I have never heard (that I recall) the sports as metaphor for justice thing. Perhaps that would have made a difference in my reading.
[...]
Think where you are! Most of them don't. But I spent the time to look for the things you said were there. I didn't find them, but I see now what you were saying. It's still not a favorite of mine.

Karmadog, it's perfectly alright that you don't like my "basketball" poem. It is also probably true that a great majority of the readers will not get any associated thoughts about fate and justice. On the other hand more than one American and non-American reader in the past understood this poem along the fate-justice line, so that they had more satisfaction from it (many readers would if I had "justice & fate" in the title but that's out of question). I still think that millions of sport fans should feel the drama of this poem (if they read it ) without doing any thinking, and they would enjoy the image.

With regards to the 'up side down' vs 'upside-down' vs 'upside down' controversy, I think you should consider how you want it read. 'up side down' I would tend to read more slowly with clearly seperated syllables. 'upside-down' would be much tighter--almost rushed. 'upside down' would have the first word quick then a slight pause before 'down'.[...]

I know all this of course, and the gramatical ramifications. My question simply was which version would you enjoy more. I was curious about personal preference of participants of this forum. Writing "incorrectly" carries a certain risk of alienating readers. (BTW, "upside down" is not an option since it is slightly incorrect on one hand, and it does not buy anything artistically on the other).

Thanks again for taking the time to respond. It was illuminating.

Thank you, KD,

 

[KillerMuffin]

Laurel, what you just said is truly offensive and completely false in the case of 5s awarded to my poems. I don't know about low votes, possibly some of them were "awarded" to my poems in bad faith (for wrong reasons), possibly not. But there was no abuse about 5s. Why would I or anybody commit a fraud to award to my poem a 5? None of my poems was anywhere near to getting 10 votes except for one poem which, yes, had 9 votes as late as of Sept 15, but a low average of 2.89 anyway. (BTW, nine votes against 1591 views is not excessive). How a vote 5 for "Poe tr y" was an abuse? Or for "blue sky", or for "logarithmic in a compact car", or for "summer end" (which just won a competition judged by experts), or for "polynomials", or for "willow girl", or for ... or for any of them!

I find your statement, Laurel, when addressing me and votes 5 for my poems, very arrogant, insensitive, void of any merit. Please, apologize to me, and do it cleanly, without any ambiguity. I want you to admit that your suspicions were, in the case of votes 5 awarded to my poems, 100% unfounded, that there was no rational reason for your suspicions, and that removing those votes was an irrational error on your part. Please, apologize to me for that and for your statement above, in this thread.

(You don't need to bother with restoring any of my wrongly removed votes, I don't care. One of my best poems has only two votes, both of them 1. It is a badge of honor to me ).

Regards,

You're joking, right?

 

[WickedEve]

KM, you don't know Senna. I don't think he's kidding.

 

[KillerMuffin]

*shakes head* I don't know Senna at all.

I didn't think people came more egocentric than me.

Of course 5's can be fraudulent. There are people who pad votes as well as down vote. I've had people do it to me and those 5's removed. Hell, I had Laurel remove a bunch once. Tamany politics will never die. And it's not like she chose what votes were fraudulent based on the numerical score. IP #'s don't lie.

 

[Laurel]

Re: Thanks Laurel!

What constitutes a "fraud vote"? - If more than one person uses the same computer/server is anything after the first considered fraud?

A fraud vote is whenever a person tries to vote more than once on a submitted work. In the interest of keeping the vote process as secure as possible, I can't discuss it any more specifically than that. I will say that the system was developed by experienced programmers with much knowledge of Internet voting patterns and issues. There are many many factors which decide a legitimate vote from an illegitimate one. All are weighed, and no vote is removed unless it is found to meet many criteria - which I won't discuss here, again because such discussion would compromise the system.

No voting system developed by humans is 100% secure. We do what we can to make ours as secure as possible. When it comes down to it, though, art is not a sport or a race. We added the voting to the stories & poems at authors' request. IMHO, voting is a good bonus for writers, but I think quantifying something subjective as art into numbers is impossible. Use the voting as a guide, but don't take it as a true gauge of worth. Reader feedback is MUCH more valuable and accurate.

Senna, I'm sorry if you took anything I said as an accusation against you. It was not meant as such. I was just telling you the facts as they stand. Fraud votes were removed. If 5s were removed from your poems, that does not mean that you put them there, and I was not accusing you of putting them there. In fact, oftentimes overzealous fans and others will do things in an attempt to "help" an author or poet, without said poet's or author's knowledge. I hope this clarifies things.

 

[Senna Jawa]

Re: Re: Thanks Laurel!

I hope this clarifies things.

The situation was and is clear without your response. Not a single vote "5" for any of my poems was a fraud. Laurel, I asked you for a clear-cut apology. So far your response means a refusal. Please, do apologize to me. It is your obligation to do so. Please, do not attempt anything less than I asked for.

-- Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Senna Jawa)

 

[Angeline]

Dear Senna,

Please read this and think about what I am saying. It truely is not my intention to argue.

Why must you be so angry and force a confrontation here? You wish to make a point about what you believe are fradulent voting practices.

You have made it, many times over.

The responses you have received thus far show that--depending on how you wish to interpret it--people either don't agree with you and you can't force them to do so or, what you might argue, they secretly do agree with you, but won't admit it for whatever reason. If the latter is true, then it seems to me that you have a few choices.

The first is to accept that no one will tell what you want to hear--or even feel, that you have a right to hear, and go on posting your work as before, with or without a voting option.

The second would be that, recognizing that you cannot force what you want, you find another site that you feel would provide a more equitable and objective way for people to evaluate your poems and submit poems there. If you chose to do this, you would not even need to leave your work here--you could delete your poems via the edit option.

Instead, you have chosen to go a third way: railing at people and making demands that you surely know will not be met.

Why is that, Senna? Do you think there is something instructive for Laurel or everyone to press your point beyond reason? Are you angry and wanting to hurt people or is all this simply cathartic for you?

I know that you are strong in your beliefs about poetry and justice. I respect that. You have taken some abuse for that here, even a little indirectly from me. I apologize for that, and I think that there were times where, in spite of what i see as your thoughtlessly rude comments, you were treated unfairly. That was wrong.

Most of us here simply want the opportunity to write and share that writing with others who value words. I know that's why I'm here. I want to feel good about this place. I want to feel that I can write and learn to improve myself in a collegial atmosphere.

Your tirades make that difficult. You hurt peoples' feelings with this, Senna. You make some of them feel bad about being here. Surely you don't want that, do you? I can't imagine why you would feel that way.

Maybe you think I'm hiding my head in the sand. I don't. I think there are enough problems in my world without making this place another battleground.

Please, Senna, as someone who respects your poetry, the many ways that you have helped me personally, and the ways you have shared your love for language with us all, let this go. Write poems instead.

I like you being here. I have learned from you.

Thank you for reading this. My intent in saying it is to speak honestly and not engage in battle.

Sincerely,
Angeline

 

[WickedEve]

Angeline, thank you for writing this. I do hope Senna sees that you're making sense here.

SJ, I know we've hit a few bumps in the road, but we've moved on. At one time, I was ready to leave this board because I found your comments to me so frustrating. But I've learned to deal with that. I've also learned a new appreciation for haiku because of you. I think you have a lot to offer here. And I for one don't want to silence you in any way. I just wish you would realize that some battles aren't worth continuing to the point that they lower the morale of this community.

 

[karmadog]

I'm unclear what you're arguing about Senna. Laurel accused you of nothing. Did not say that you committed any sort of fraud. It looks to me like she said that her anti-fraud program discovered some unusual votes. I personally have no idea what that means, but I do know that she apologised if you felt accused. What more do you want? You've repeatedly said that voting means nothing to you, so turn it the fuck off if it is frustrating you so.

I am with Angeline, I would like you to stay on the board. I've learned a lot from you. I wouldn't like to see you leave. And personally, I wouldn't have you change your style. You won't offend me. I might disagree, but I won't be offended. In fact, I'll give you twenty bucks if you can offend me. I've offered that bet many, many times and no one has collected. You won't be the first.

Stick around SJ. I know you have more stuff I need to know. One day, I hope to know what the hell 'kennings' are.

 

[WickedEve]

$20?

I am with Angeline, I would like you to stay on the board. I've learned a lot from you. I wouldn't like to see you leave. And personally, I wouldn't have you change your style. You won't offend me. I might disagree, but I won't be offended. In fact, I'll give you twenty bucks if you can offend me. I've offered that bet many, many times and no one has collected. You won't be the first.

I really need twenty bucks. So here it goes...
You can't rhyme worth a darn.
You sniff cat butts.
You only chase sissy looking cars.
Is that a picture of your dog, or did you cough up a rat! (hey, hey, how about that one?)

 

[karmadog]

You can't rhyme worth a darn.

I know.

You sniff cat butts.

One of my exes had a cat that regularly woke me by shoving his ass in my face. Every time he did it, I would throw him at the wall. The damn things still land on their feet.

You only chase sissy looking cars.

Sure. There's usually a girl in a Miata.

Is that a picture of your dog, or did you cough up a rat! (hey, hey, how about that one?)

One of my psych professors once told me that a West African grad student invited his to his house for dinner. He served him what he thought was a tasty squirrel and peanut casserole. It turned out that the grad student was the one stealing the lab rats.

Half the world thinks Karma is cute as hell, the other half runs screaming. She doesn't care, why should I?

I was a bartender for 14 years. It can't be done.

 

[Floater]

A Medicinal Wisdom prize should be created so it can be awarded to Angeline and Karmadog. With a generous cash bonus.

 

[Rybka]

Re: butchery carnage massacre slaughter

If it continues like this I will be left with no votes. . .

This has gone too far!! IT has happened!

I had several poems that only had 1 or2 votes. Now they have NONE !!!
How is it possible that ALL VOTES are fraudulent?

Regards,                 Rybka