But I loved his books

[Cruel2BKind]

http://greensboro.rhinotimes.com/Ar...703.112113-What-Right-Is-Really-At-Stake.html

It turns out that Orson Scott Card, the writer of brilliant science fiction, is an illogical fucktard.

Here is an article where he insists that he has gay friends, that gays don't need the 1,300+ rights that come with marriage because their friends treat them like a couple, and that 'the left' will use legalized gay marriage to oppress religion in schools.

I'll never be able to read 'ender's shadow' again.

Fuck you Card.

 

[Bramblethorn]

http://greensboro.rhinotimes.com/Ar...703.112113-What-Right-Is-Really-At-Stake.html

It turns out that Orson Scott Card, the writer of brilliant science fiction, is an illogical fucktard.

Here is an article where he insists that he has gay friends, that gays don't need the 1,300+ rights that come with marriage because their friends treat them like a couple, and that 'the left' will use legalized gay marriage to oppress religion in schools.

I'll never be able to read 'ender's shadow' again.

Fuck you Card.

OSC has been a repulsive homophobe for years :-/ I haven't read that particular article, but he's been publishing essays in that vein for years. Last year he produced a bizarre rewrite of Hamlet: Hamlet's dad was gay, in life he turned Laertes, Horatio, and R&G gay by molesting them all, and then as a ghost he lied to Hamlet to trick him into murdering innocent people, so they'll be in hell together and he can molest his son for eternity. He's also a director of NOM, which was set up specifically to oppose same-sex marriage.

I'd always heard good things about his books, kept meaning to read them, and then I ran into his political opinions. Since then... I still hear his books are good, and I may well read them one day, just as soon as I've run out of books by good authors who aren't homophobic jerks.

 

[lovecraft68]

I only read Enders Game years ago and found it to "tame" to me it read like a kids book.

As for his opinions screw them. If you like the books read them, its not like you're ever going to hang out with the guy. And it's not like the Gay community is suddenly going to say "well OSC said we don;t need marriage so screw it"

I enjoy music, sports, reading, but I separate what they do from who they are. I like Marilyn Manson's music, but pay no attention to any of the dumb shit he slings or how weird he is I'll still buy the music.

My one exception is Downey Junior, he once said something that was so appallingly arrogant (and on a subject I'm touchy about) that I swore I would never watch a movie that he is in (no Avengers for me alas)

Aside from him though I keep the talent/opinions separate

 

[Cruel2BKind]

I only read Enders Game years ago and found it to "tame" to me it read like a kids book.

As for his opinions screw them. If you like the books read them, its not like you're ever going to hang out with the guy. And it's not like the Gay community is suddenly going to say "well OSC said we don;t need marriage so screw it"

I enjoy music, sports, reading, but I separate what they do from who they are. I like Marilyn Manson's music, but pay no attention to any of the dumb shit he slings or how weird he is I'll still buy the music.

My one exception is Downey Junior, he once said something that was so appallingly arrogant (and on a subject I'm touchy about) that I swore I would never watch a movie that he is in (no Avengers for me alas)

Aside from him though I keep the talent/opinions separate

I'm curious, what did he say? I know he went to jail for something stupid, but Iron man redeemed him. I think Actors have to do some pretty stupid things to get on my shit-list. Like Terrance Howard, renowned cheater/wife-beater. Or Kevin Costner, for directing and producing so much shit and whitewashing history even more then it already is.

 

[PennLady]

Funny, I was going to start a thread or maybe blog about this, but the whole issue of whether an artist or performer or whatever's work should be separated from his opinions is interesting.

First that comes to mind is Roman Polanski. I've only seen one of his (The Pianist) and I have to say the fact that he had sex with a 13yo and then fled the country makes me iffy on seeing others, no matter how good they are. (Yes I know there are many other circumstances, but those are the two basic facts.)

Now C2BK has mentioned Orson Scott Card (I didn't know this about him), and LC68 his feelings on Robert Downey, Jr. No doubt Woody Allen fits into this category for many people. L. Ron Hubbard might.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I only read Enders Game years ago and found it to "tame" to me it read like a kids book.

As for his opinions screw them. If you like the books read them, its not like you're ever going to hang out with the guy. And it's not like the Gay community is suddenly going to say "well OSC said we don;t need marriage so screw it"

Would it were that simple. There are plenty of gay folk who don't get to say "screw OSC's opinions". He's a board member of an organization that was created to campaign against gay rights, and where NOM has been successful gay people don't have the option of marriage. They were one of the major factors behind the success of Proposition 8 in California (allegedly, funded by large donations from OSC's church), and they have their fingers in many other anti-gay initiatives across the USA.

And yeah, it's possible to read and enjoy work by someone who's a jerk, even when it shows through in their fiction. But if I have a choice, I'll start with the good authors who aren't jerks, and usually I do have that choice.

 

[jomar]

Wow. His logic is illogical.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Now C2BK has mentioned Orson Scott Card (I didn't know this about him), and LC68 his feelings on Robert Downey, Jr. No doubt Woody Allen fits into this category for many people. L. Ron Hubbard might.

Charles Dickens for me. He made a fortune out of sentimental stories where virtue is rewarded and immorality is punished, but when he was 45 he abandoned his wife for an 18-year-old actress he'd cast in one of his productions (let's not even start on the power-imbalance issues there).

These days, at least the wife would've been able to go do something else with her life. In Dickens' day divorce was unthinkable, and she was pretty much forced to retire from society while Dickens badmouthed her in the papers. Since I learned that much, I've found it hard to read Dickens without gagging.

 

[lovecraft68]

I'm curious, what did he say? I know he went to jail for something stupid, but Iron man redeemed him. I think Actors have to do some pretty stupid things to get on my shit-list. Like Terrance Howard, renowned cheater/wife-beater. Or Kevin Costner, for directing and producing so much shit and whitewashing history even more then it already is.

If you need to know what it boils down to is addiction.

I have mixed views on this subject. I was raised in a family riddled with it and have lost many along the years. But my family and the others I knew (I didn't grow up in the greatest of areas so knew a lot of kids who got into drugs.) were poor or at best middle class the average joe.

I have a lot of sympathy for them, I knwo people think they're weak and don;t want to quit or whatever, but truth of the matter no one wants to be an addict and it is heartbreaking to see what they go through.

However, I abhor people like Charlie Sheen and many others who are addicts with a lot of issues because they never pay the price that "real" people do for their actions and although money does not mean they cannot have problems their lives are a whol lot better than the average addict and they have the money to get the best help out there.

And people also think some of their behavior is entirely forgivable. NO one cares Sheen threatened his wife and exhibits violent behavior because 2 1/2 men is a funny show and they want to keep watching it.

But to Downey Jr. THis asshat is the typical spoiled rotten little punk who spent all his money partying at one point. Got arrested several times and if it were us would still be in jail. He got himself cleaned up which is great.

But after he become sober/clean he made a statement at an awards show saying that he would like to thank someone, but he only had himself to thank.

really you asshole? How about your fathers name and money that kept getting you out of jail? How about the people who looked the other way because of who you are? How about the courts who gave you breaks because of who you were?

Most importantly how about all the people who helped get you clean in the first place because no one does it alone. No one to thank my ass.

Anyone who is in or knows someone in a 12 step program knows that you only get help when you humble yourself to admit that this disease has got the better of you. That you do have a problem and you need help.

Arrogance and recovery do not mix. If these are truly his feelings Downey will fall of the wagon at some point and as cruel as it sounds I could care less if he does and if he Overdosed I'd say he deserved it.

There are plenty of people who would kill to get the help that according to his asshole statement he never got.

So people can think what they want, I'm only speaking for me here, but after hearing that I decided I never need to see his smug face or contribute to his disgusting amount of wealth.

Aren't you glad you asked?

 

[lovecraft68]

Funny, I was going to start a thread or maybe blog about this, but the whole issue of whether an artist or performer or whatever's work should be separated from his opinions is interesting.

First that comes to mind is Roman Polanski. I've only seen one of his (The Pianist) and I have to say the fact that he had sex with a 13yo and then fled the country makes me iffy on seeing others, no matter how good they are. (Yes I know there are many other circumstances, but those are the two basic facts.)

Now C2BK has mentioned Orson Scott Card (I didn't know this about him), and LC68 his feelings on Robert Downey, Jr. No doubt Woody Allen fits into this category for many people. L. Ron Hubbard might.

Yeah I suppose Woody lost some credibility with the Sun-li episode. Personally I never was a fan of his work so I didn't really see him any differently.

Another point is that we live in an age where everyone knows everything. The media is everywhere. One wrong politically incorrect statement can ruin someone.

I always wonder years ago how many big name authors/actors/singers and famous people committed far worse acts because it was never let on and if it was discovered was hushed up.

Look at Clinton, crucified because he was getting bj's in the oval office. Kennedy is all but up there for sainthood, but what the hell do you think was going on in the White house during "Camelot?" he was licking Marilyn's pussy right on the desk and who the hell knows who else he was fucking.

But back then the country would keep stuff like that quiet out of respect, now stuff like that is everywhere.

 

[PennLady]

But after he become sober/clean he made a statement at an awards show saying that he would like to thank someone, but he only had himself to thank.

Not dismissing anything you said, b/c I know addiction if far more complicated than many people make it out to be, but I have to say -- knowing this was RDJ, I have to wonder if he was joking. Perhaps a bad joke, but joking nonetheless.

Yeah I suppose Woody lost some credibility with the Sun-li episode. Personally I never was a fan of his work so I didn't really see him any differently.

It's one thing not to be a fan of his stuff (I'm kind of indifferent), but the fact that there was a father/daughter element to this didn't change your views at all?

I thought of another one: John Lennon. Realizing there are sides to the story I don't know of, it bothers me that he's often lionized as such a great person after he (from what I know) essentially abandoned his first wife and son.

 

[PennLady]

Just read the Card column. Wow. What a bozo.

I haven't read any of his books, I don't think. Perhaps a short story in college. I do have "Ender's Game" but couldn't really get into it but perhaps I'll try again. Maybe. Sometime. After I read other stuff.

 

[lovecraft68]

Not dismissing anything you said, b/c I know addiction if far more complicated than many people make it out to be, but I have to say -- knowing this was RDJ, I have to wonder if he was joking. Perhaps a bad joke, but joking nonetheless.



It's one thing not to be a fan of his stuff (I'm kind of indifferent), but the fact that there was a father/daughter element to this didn't change your views at all?

I thought of another one: John Lennon. Realizing there are sides to the story I don't know of, it bothers me that he's often lionized as such a great person after he (from what I know) essentially abandoned his first wife and son.

Personally (agian this is just for me) The statement came across as dead serious because he has always been arrogant. I would think if it were a joke, he may have realized it and made another remark later on, but he hasn't. He's always been a d-bag now he's a sober D-bag, at least for now.

On Woody, she was not his biological daughter, but yeah it says something about the guy. Maybe it didn't hit me so hard, because the guy always seemed sleazy so there was no surprise factor. His wife was far from a dream either, Mia was goddamn nuts.

Interesting that you mention Lennon because I always thought he was an asshole. I think he had a decent message and believed in peace, but he was a big time druggie and came out with some things that were more inflammatory than peaceful.

Now something I would be interested to see if we had a time machine is what reaction his famous "The Beatles are bigger than Jesus Christ" remark would get these days. back then it hurt him. Today I wonder, it would probably make him "cool"

Then again the way this country is going mentioning Jesus Christ alone might have got him in trouble, after all we can't offend the non Christians now can we?

 

[estragon]

The best example I can think of (a great writer/composer) who was a terrible shit as a human being is Richard Wagner. Die Meistersinger is a masterpiece; I even like Rienzi (the overture is brilliant). Die Walkure is a treasure.

Yet the man himself was a proto-Nazi, an inspiration to the worst criminals. He took off with his best friend's wife. He embezzled from a crazy king by encouraging his insanity. He was nasty, arrogant, bigoted.

He was also a genius.

 

[Cruel2BKind]

Ooh! Here's another two...

Tim allen was busted in an airport with a pound and a half of cocaine and he never had to go to jail.

http://www.nndb.com/people/279/000025204/

And Chuck Berry liked to hide cameras in the bathrooms of his club so he could watch women urinate, among other things

http://www.spinner.com/2009/12/11/chuck-berry-sex-scandal/

 

[3113]

This is why I'm in favor of never knowing anything or much of anything about authors or artists--if it can be avoided. Obviously not if they're board members of certain groups that are doing certain things. But why do we have to know about the Woody Allen incident? The news made sure we did, but was it newsworthy? How about Dickens and his private life or T.S. Eliot who lived with a man who left wife and kids behind? Human beings are human beings. And one thing I never expect artists to be are Saints. In fact, some of the best ones are far from Saintly. If I read works only by those who are not only Saintly but share all my personal views, I'll never read anything. It's ridiculous to judge a work of art on the morality, ethics, or actions of the author.

I will happily grant, however, that it's hard or next to impossible to separate artist from art when it comes to big things like Nazi propaganda, however beautifully made, or D.W. Griffith's "Birth of a Nation" based on the Klansman which fueled lynching and popularized the Klan. And I will equally grant that when an artist makes sure you know his objectionable morality--like he's head of some organization against gay marriage and writing up essays on the topic, then supporting his art becomes a matter of morality as well. Do you give him money that you *know* will go to a purpose you don't support, as with Orson Scott Card? In that case, the artist has forced you to decide between your ethics and his art, and you have to decide to uphold your ethics rather than enjoy his art.

However, when it comes down to artists whose sins are not on that sort of level, they not fueling damaging, national propaganda or what we would consider criminal activity with their art nor using money from their art to do so, then I think we should at least try to ignore their personal life and personal failings. Judge not and all that.

 

[jomar]

Ooh! Here's another two...

Tim allen was busted in an airport with a pound and a half of cocaine and he never had to go to jail.

http://www.nndb.com/people/279/000025204/

...

Tim Allen did got to prison.

From the article: "...he was sentenced to just five years under the more lenient (at that time) federal law. He was paroled after 2½ years,..."

 

[Kurokami]

Funny, I was going to start a thread or maybe blog about this, but the whole issue of whether an artist or performer or whatever's work should be separated from his opinions is interesting.

There was a quite fascinating offshoot of this, still keeping with OSC, maybe a year or two back, when Shadow Complex was just coming out. People were boycotting the game because of the connection with OSC, the logic being that any money he made off of the project may go to supporting his homophobic beliefs via NOM, since he does invest in that particular brand of bullshit.

Now, when I first read Ender's Game back when I was in high school, I was unaware of the author's nasty little beliefs, but since becoming aware of them I haven't bought any more of his stuff, even though I still like the two books of his I did read. Obviously the man's opinions don't affect the quality of his writing at all (except when writing opinion pieces, as the article in the OP shows. Negatively, too) but I'm certainly under no obligation to support a man whose beliefs I find disgusting by buying it, especially not when there's a clear link between the money I spend here and Card's ability to fund a group like the NOM. Like others have said here, there are plenty of great books that weren't written by assholes that I could read first.

 

[Safe_Bet]

First that comes to mind is Roman Polanski. I've only seen one of his (The Pianist) and I have to say the fact that he had sex with a 13yo and then fled the country makes me iffy on seeing others, no matter how good they are. (Yes I know there are many other circumstances, but those are the two basic facts.).

Ummmm... Point of order here, toots.

Polanski didn't "have sex with a 13 y.o.". He knowing, willingly and maliciously drugged and raped a child. Don't white wash his acts, please. There ARE no other "circumstances" to mitigate his crimes.

 

[soflabbwlvr]

If you dig deep enough, you are going to find out something you don't like about everyone. It's another form of the isolationism the teabaggers are promoting.

 

[Safe_Bet]

If you dig deep enough, you are going to find out something you don't like about everyone. It's another form of the isolationism the teabaggers are promoting.

??????????????????

Wha...???

You aren't saying that doing some due diligence by making sure the people your support financially are not racists, homophobes and/or pedophiles, and then "shunning" them is the same as being a tea nagger? SERIOUSLY????

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I dont see how you can go wrong bashing faggots, Niggaz, perfessers, and galz.

 

[Kurokami]

I dont see how you can go wrong bashing faggots, Niggaz, perfessers, and galz.

Okay, I give up: can someone tell me what this guy's deal is?

I'm not trying to be argumentative or start some shit, I just honestly feel like something's going on with him that I'm not privy to. I can't tell if this is sarcasm, or trolling or some kind of long and orchestrated joke, the mechanisms of which just seem to elude me, but... Somebody clue me in, please?

 

[sr71plt]

Okay, I give up: can someone tell me what this guy's deal is?

He lives to get a rise. So he's really livin' now.

Haven't bought or read Card. Don't plan on starting now.

 

[lovecraft68]

If you dig deep enough, you are going to find out something you don't like about everyone. It's another form of the isolationism the teabaggers are promoting.

And this is why I avoid most forms of media. There are things one should be informed of, but other things fall under ignorance is bliss.

The Polanski situation is obviously big enough to really be a problem, but to know every dirty secret of someone would mean sooner or later you'd be boycotting everyone.