Bummer

[Wordmate]

Lately I've been writing horror stories and the fans have enjoyed them despite how dark they are. Then I write a new one called A Winter's Night and suddenly people are making a big deal over it because it's a bit more intense. It's not a snuff story like some people assumed it is. When I made changes it was published and then suddenly a couple of days later it was removed and some complainer had the gall to call it garbage. Probably why the story was removed. People always forget the old saying, if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all. It's kind of odd that this story would be criticized because of the violent content while the other stories were equally as violent and no one made a big deal over it, except one and his comment inspired me to write another story. Come on, people it's a story and not some sick fantasy. Please, get those thoughts out of your heads.

 

[ElectricBlue]

When I made changes it was published and then suddenly a couple of days later it was removed and some complainer had the gall to call it garbage. Probably why the story was removed.

Something being called garbage (or being garbage) isn't a criteria for removal. Something breaching Lit's content policies is. The story has presumably been referred back to you as rejected, with a generic reason why (couched as a set of questions). Address the reasons for rejection, resubmit.

If a story violates Laurel's violence thresholds, you either fix the story, or accept her right as site owner to pull down whatever she likes. That's why there's a reporting function, so readers can report perceived violations of content to the umpire.

 

[Wordmate]

Something being called garbage (or being garbage) isn't a criteria for removal. Something breaching Lit's content policies is. The story has presumably been referred back to you as rejected, with a generic reason why (couched as a set of questions). Address the reasons for rejection, resubmit.

If a story violates Laurel's violence thresholds, you either fix the story, or accept her right as site owner to pull down whatever she likes. That's why there's a reporting function, so readers can report perceived violations of content to the umpire.

Sounds like squealing or snitching to me.

 

[Javahead]

Sounds like squealing or snitching to me.

Yet the site’s had a ‘report’ mechanism built in as long as I can remember.

You don’t get booted out for offending others, like, say, Facebook - you get booted for violating very specific site rules. And you can appeal a ban by showing it doesn’t violate those rules, or rewrite and resubmit.

 

[Hypoxia]

You don’t get booted out for offending others, like, say, Facebook - you get booted for violating very specific site rules. And you can appeal a ban by showing it doesn’t violate those rules, or rewrite and resubmit.

I've gone through all that. Under His Eyes was mistakenly reported as snuff, and pulled from LW. I rewrote it to explicitly show it was NOT snuff and posted that in Humor as Right Under His Eyes. Wanting to keep all the original comments, I PM'd Laurel about the original version; she reviewed and reinstated it, so both versions are up. I then adapted it to a role-flipped LW version for the BtB crowd as Still Under His Eyes.

Pulled once does not mean pulled forever. Trolls can report you and down you go, so respond and you're back up again. Or fix it if necessary. Keep Phideaux out of the bed unless talking werewolf.

 

[Wordmate]

I've gone through all that. Under His Eyes was mistakenly reported as snuff, and pulled from LW. I rewrote it to explicitly show it was NOT snuff and posted that in Humor as Right Under His Eyes. Wanting to keep all the original comments, I PM'd Laurel about the original version; she reviewed and reinstated it, so both versions are up. I then adapted it to a role-flipped LW version for the BtB crowd as Still Under His Eyes.

Pulled once does not mean pulled forever. Trolls can report you and down you go, so respond and you're back up again. Or fix it if necessary. Keep Phideaux out of the bed unless talking werewolf.

I'm tired of re-editing the story. It was fine the way it was. So, do you know any horror fiction sites that might accept the story without question?

 

[Blind_Justice]

Have you straight-up asked Laurel? Send her a PM, explain the situation and ask what exactly her problem with your story is. I had a story of mine pulled because of a stupid misunderstanding. A PM later and the issue was quickly and quietly resolved.

 

[Wordmate]

Have you straight-up asked Laurel? Send her a PM, explain the situation and ask what exactly her problem with your story is. I had a story of mine pulled because of a stupid misunderstanding. A PM later and the issue was quickly and quietly resolved.

Who's Laurel?

 

[ElectricBlue]

Who's Laurel?

The owner of Literotica, and the single umpire of what stays, what goes. Her rules, her call.

 

[Vix_Giovanni]

Who's Laurel?

Oh, grasshopper....

Yes, as BlindJustice said, send Laurel a PM. This entire Lit universe is her baby.

 

[Wordmate]

Oh, grasshopper....

Yes, as BlindJustice said, send Laurel a PM. This entire Lit universe is her baby.

Just send Laurel an E-mail?

 

[KeithD]

Just send Laurel an E-mail?

She doesn't open e-mails. Send a Private Message (PM)--upper right column on this page if you have Private Messages turned on. That's the only message system she responds to--and some report not getting response from there either.

 

[ChloeTzang]

Just send Laurel an E-mail?

To make it easy, go to the top of the Authors Hangout and see that Halloween Competition thread- that was opened by Laurel. Click on her userid, send her a PM and explain. Make the pm subject concise and to the point. Keep the pm short and to the point - she gets thru a lot so make her life easy.

 

[ElectricBlue]

To make it easy, go to the top of the Authors Hangout and see that Halloween Competition thread- that was opened by Laurel. Click on her userid, send her a PM and explain. Make the pm subject concise and to the point. Keep the pm short and to the point - she gets thru a lot so make her life easy.

The point, which seems to have got lost in the identity parade, is that this guy's story has already, by his own admission, had at least one knock-back and resubmission to get published in the first place, which means it was already borderline against a content policy. We all know that Laurel can only ever scan lightly, but something bumped her the first time around. The story then gets up, gets quickly reported by the sounds of things, and Laurel takes it down, so it's now bumped her twice (with a closer read) and somebody else once, to report it.

The OP then goes into an, "Oh but it's just a story and not a sick fantasy," schtik (conveniently forgetting that nearly every story on Lit IS a fantasy of one sort or another - and sickness or otherwise is usually down to the writer, not the reader) and in this case, the OP even states he was encouraged to go more extreme. He now refuses to edit, and wants to take it elsewhere. Which suggests to me that he knows full well that it's gone too far, and he's protesting just a little too much.

Do what I did, and go check his body of work. You'll find a collection of misogynistic hate stuff and a collection of very, very revealing non-erotic poetry. If it's not quite an incel manifesto, it's pretty damn close. The list of poetry titles alone is evidence, I think, of SimonDoom's thesis that story titles are important tells:

https://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=1398905&page=submissions

Here's an extract to save everyone time - story title "Everyone's a Critic" (may be ironic, but somehow I don't think so):

When he checked his surroundings he realized he was in his own basement; the familiar musty smell, boards covering the small windows, and stacks of dusty old cardboard boxes gave it all away.

My guess is the piece was very, very unpleasant, and Laurel has rightfully pulled it. I doubt it was a mistake, like in BlindJustice's case.

That's the thing with words, mate, they usually tell a story. It's when you string them all together that often reveals the most. Write something nice about little kittens next time, maybe someone will like you for who you really are.

You probably need to get out more, do something healthy. That's not irony, by the way, but a serious suggestion. I don't think the writing's helping much, not really.

 

[MichaelGH]

My guess is the piece was very, very unpleasant, and Laurel has rightfully pulled it. I doubt it was a mistake, like in BlindJustice's case.

That's the thing with words, mate, they usually tell a story. It's when you string them all together that often reveals the most. Write something nice about little kittens next time, maybe someone will like you for who you really are.

You probably need to get out more, do something healthy. That's not irony, by the way, but a serious suggestion. I don't think the writing's helping much, not really.

What he’s writing may just be what’s inside him. Writing about nice kitties may not be capable for him. There are much more harmful ways to deal with that misogyny.

I’ve written stuff that’s shown anger at relations between men and women. I think if you look deep in your heart you’d probably understand why I feel a bit of anger. And I think if some guy said “I’m a feminist ally. I have no issues when it comes to women. I’m the ideal model for how all other guys should base themselves on,” you’d probably think they’re full of shit.

It doesn’t help that the worst of both sides seems to find their voice heard in regards to the debate of how men and women should interact. The people who have no self consciousness and a need to be heard that subsumes the desire to actually improve things. Replacing other people’s Idealism with a fear of being judged for not following other’s beliefs. It’s no wonder that certain subsections of the population have fucked up views in regards to women.

So I wouldn’t reject, judge or hate other people’s misogynistic work. I would just simply say “Hey listen Buster, we’re all going to go somewhere else. You’re free to join us but it’s not going to be much fun for you if you keep the views you have.”

 

[ElectricBlue]

I think if you look deep in your heart you’d probably understand why I feel a bit of anger. And I think if some guy said “I’m a feminist ally. I have no issues when it comes to women. I’m the ideal model for how all other guys should base themselves on,” you’d probably think they’re full of shit.

Well there you go. I must be full of shit because I am that feminist ally who doesn't accept misogynistic attitudes about women, and far prefer the company of women to men because on the whole, women are kinder.

My way of expressing it is to write positive, affirming, egalitarian, consensual stories about powerful women and confident men. So no, when I look deep in my heart, I have no idea why you have a bit of anger (because I know nothing about you other than you're writing something long) - but I will judge misogyny for what it is - misogyny. It's an attitude, not an excuse.

And no, I don't set myself up as a role mode for perfect behaviour, not at all. I'm far from that. But hatred in any form towards women? Not from me - lots of people seem to write as therapy, I write because I love women - it really is that simple.

 

[MichaelGH]

Well there you go. I must be full of shit because I am that feminist ally who doesn't accept misogynistic attitudes about women, and far prefer the company of women to men because on the whole, women are kinder.

My way of expressing it is to write positive, affirming, egalitarian, consensual stories about powerful women and confident men. So no, when I look deep in my heart, I have no idea why you have a bit of anger (because I know nothing about you other than you're writing something long) - but I will judge misogyny for what it is - misogyny. It's an attitude, not an excuse.

And no, I don't set myself up as a role mode for perfect behaviour, not at all. I'm far from that. But hatred in any form towards women? Not from me - lots of people seem to write as therapy, I write because I love women - it really is that simple.

Is this going to be one of those angry conversations? Cause I’d like to go down happy road if possible.

To me incels/misogynists/what have you are like the shadow self, there’s probably a bit of that in me. I have the same potential, not drawing an us and them line there. The point is I do my best not let it rise to the surface. And the larger point is that you could probably understand where they’re coming from without condoning their views or actions. And straight up rejecting them is probably not going to solve the problem at hand.

I mean I don’t recommend spending time with them. I’d probably recommend having an enjoyable experience on a path that goes the other way so that you can show them there’s a better way.

But you know sometimes to get on that path you have to confront the anger and pain that exists inside you. Not paving over it.

I don’t know, one thing I felt made me less sexist was accepting that women aren’t always good or rational people. It kind of gave me a better expectation of how they should behave. Not having to have the heightened view of women without feeling I’m a sexist for not having it.

It’s tempting to point to something dark and say “this should not exist,” but it does and I’d take the nonviolent version of it over the alternative.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Is this going to be one of those angry conversations? Cause I’d like to go down happy road if possible.

Happy is good, we're all writers here, first and foremost .

I mean I don’t recommend spending time with them. I’d probably recommend having an enjoyable experience on a path that goes the other way so that you can show them there’s a better way.

I guess that's my approach to erotica - to write positive, affirming content as a counter to what seems to be the preponderance here, which is, sadly, misogynist and homophobic (the "real men of Lit" don't like strong women and god forbid you question their masculinity).

But you know sometimes to get on that path you have to confront the anger and pain that exists inside you. Not paving over it.

I don’t know, one thing I felt made me less sexist was accepting that women aren’t always good or rational people. It kind of gave me a better expectation of how they should behave. Not having to have the heightened view of women without feeling I’m a sexist for not having it.

I've not had such issues with any woman (and I've been on this planet a while and sure, I've fucked up some relationships - but I've never "not loved" someone I once loved), so I can't comment on that. Men are from Mars, women are from Venus - I learned that as a fourteen year old in a co-ed school, and just got on well with girls as friends first, girl-friends second; and carried it through into adult-hood.

If you read my stories, you'll be able to tell I adore and respect women - and my readers respond to that. One woman wrote that my stories were a "safe place" for her - the sub-text being that her life wasn't always happy, but my written world gave her somewhere nice to be. I liked the idea of that.

Someone recently said we should have a new category "Wholesome" so maybe I've gone too far - but the point was nicely made that erotica can be easy on the eye as well as easy on the mind - it doesn't always need to be angry or cathartic or intense.

I haven't written about kittens, but cats feature quite a lot in my stories - it's the feline, feminine, tame/wild thing and a simple trope - coupled with the old saying, "Dogs have masters, cats have staff." Women are like cats in that regard, you certainly can't "own" one .

 

[MichaelGH]

Happy is good, we're all writers here, first and foremost .


I guess that's my approach to erotica - to write positive, affirming content as a counter to what seems to be the preponderance here, which is, sadly, misogynist and homophobic (the "real men of Lit" don't like strong women and god forbid you question their masculinity).


I've not had such issues with any woman (and I've been on this planet a while and sure, I've fucked up some relationships - but I've never "not loved" someone I once loved), so I can't comment on that. Men are from Mars, women are from Venus - I learned that as a fourteen year old in a co-ed school, and just got on well with girls as friends first, girl-friends second; and carried it through into adult-hood.

If you read my stories, you'll be able to tell I adore and respect women - and my readers respond to that. One woman wrote that my stories were a "safe place" for her - the sub-text being that her life wasn't always happy, but my written world gave her somewhere nice to be. I liked the idea of that.

Someone recently said we should have a new category "Wholesome" so maybe I've gone too far - but the point was nicely made that erotica can be easy on the eye as well as easy on the mind - it doesn't always need to be angry or cathartic or intense.

I haven't written about kittens, but cats feature quite a lot in my stories - it's the feline, feminine, tame/wild thing and a simple trope - coupled with the old saying, "Dogs have masters, cats have staff." Women are like cats in that regard, you certainly can't "own" one .

Some of us have had issues with and you know there’s not really a great way to deal with them without being labeled sexist and what not. You can’t voice them properly and find a way through them without being judged. I’m not saying that these issues are attractive or likeable but you know I think you could probably understand where these issues are coming from.

I don’t think rejection of judgement of these people is going to help. It’s going to just increase their anger and build up the steam pressure until they snap. That’s why I don’t want to go after their art, it’s a nonviolent manner of expressing themselves. That’s why for a lack of judgement but also a lack of engagement if one so chooses. As long as it’s not a call to arms kind of thing.

You also say you write because you love women. Do you write about the neo nazi lady who’s calling for the extermination of some races? Cause I’m not making pleasant conversation with her.

 

[ElectricBlue]

You also say you write because you love women. Do you write about the neo nazi lady who’s calling for the extermination of some races? Cause I’m not making pleasant conversation with her.

Women generally, not every woman.

Neo-Nazis, racists, misogynists, anti-Semites, homophobes - if anybody wears their ass-holery on their sleeves they're fair game. And no, I wouldn't write about such a woman. Why would I? How is she even remotely erotic?

Politics and art, you know they don't mix (and I never go near the Politics Board) so let's not bring that here. Besides, you can't have a "conversation" with someone like that - you can put up with a monologue, if you're silly enough to engage, but conversational logic goes out the window as soon as they speak.

 

[LupusDei]

Politics and art, you know they don't mix

That's a very strange statement for me. Every piece of art, and I mean absolutely every, no matter how mundane or abstract is a political statement, always. Not always clear without wider context, and that's why abstract art tends to be more political, because it requires that context, but every idea is by itself in the very nature political.

Well, I guess that might be outside the most narrow definitions of specific (American) contexts, and pulls heavily on my post-Soviet experience, but if love songs wasn't used as weapons world history had been different.

 

[ElectricBlue]

That's a very strange statement for me. Every piece of art, and I mean absolutely every, no matter how mundane or abstract is a political statement, always. Not always clear without wider context, and that's why abstract art tends to be more political, because it requires that context, but every idea is by itself in the very nature political.

Well, I guess that might be outside the most narrow definitions of specific (American) contexts, and pulls heavily on my post-Soviet experience, but if love songs wasn't used as weapons world history had been different.

On Literotica. They don't mix on Literotica, is what I meant.

Of course they are inextricably entwined. We just have to separate/compartmentalise the discussions on these forums.

Also, I most assuredly do NOT speak from an American context, not ever. Australian, mate, with English heritage .

 

[MichaelGH]

Women generally, not every woman.

Neo-Nazis, racists, misogynists, anti-Semites, homophobes - if anybody wears their ass-holery on their sleeves they're fair game. And no, I wouldn't write about such a woman. Why would I? How is she even remotely erotic?

Politics and art, you know they don't mix (and I never go near the Politics Board) so let's not bring that here. Besides, you can't have a "conversation" with someone like that - you can put up with a monologue, if you're silly enough to engage, but conversational logic goes out the window as soon as they speak.

Politics are basically ideas for how we should live our lives and art is also a reflection of beliefs and values so I would argue that’s an intersection right there. In fact there are certain people who would argue that all art is political.

Anyways there are certain bigots who found their way to change and now devote their lives to trying to make up for their actions so I’m not comfortable dismissing them out of hand. I’m sure if you heard some of their stories of abusive adults, uncaring educational system and a hate group that was their only way out you’d feel your sympathy tug a bit. I’m not condoning actions here but I am arguing there’s a little identification. And if the side that you want to support tells these people that they don’t identify with them then the problem continues. That’s why I’m arguing for a sentiment that ascribes to “I understand why you feel this way but I would rather do something else than engage with you.”

Note: this sentiment goes away in the wake of any physical harm is done. Hopefully the perpetrator is locked up in a place that’s a bit better at rehabilitation than the U.S., the country I’m from.

I mean I sure you understand anger and hate, you had some unkind words for the bigots you described. You could probably see how such a sentiment could attach itself to a group of people.

For me it was the idea that love/relationships would make life significantly better. You know that kind of creates a certain resentment towards women if you think they’re the key to your salvation, only that they’re not turning the key for you. You could probably understand how someone could feel that way, every depiction of love seems to point to that direction.

And you know hearing “hey asshole, you’re not entitled to a woman’s love,” didn’t really lessen the resentment. It’s more like hearing that one is primarily in a relationship with oneself and a person is just going to end up bringing that person to the relationship. And also that a lot of people in relationships are pretty miserable, they’re not the cure all your looking for.

So you know, I think holding a place of understanding can be helpful in this regard. I’m not saying to accept this persons story if it goes against guidelines but you know I’m not going to judge him for going to that territory with his mind. Only that this is not the place for that and that we’d all be happier with other stories on the site.

 

[MichaelGH]

On Literotica. They don't mix on Literotica, is what I meant.

Of course they are inextricably entwined. We just have to separate/compartmentalise the discussions on these forums.

Also, I most assuredly do NOT speak from an American context, not ever. Australian, mate, with English heritage .

I was just trying to find an example of a woman you didn’t love.

 

[LupusDei]

On Literotica. They don't mix on Literotica, is what I meant.

Of course they are inextricably entwined. We just have to separate/compartmentalise the discussions on these forums.

Also, I most assuredly do NOT speak from an American context, not ever. Australian, mate, with English heritage .

Yup, I know.

Explicit partisan commentary mostly is just bad style anyway, and often doesn't age well. Ideas itself on the other hand, can and often have attributable political leanings, like we it or not.