Brown vs. Board of Education Revisited

[FFOTS4Life]

A little background - I am sure most of you know that Brown vs. Board of Education Topeka, Kansas was the Supreme Court case that overturned "separate but equal" schools for minorities.

Thurgood Marshall was the major proponent for integration. He claimed that separate but equal was inherently wrong because it caused an inferiority complex without meaning too.

He argued his point by using the findings of a study by Kenneth and Mamie Clark who in 1939 asked numerous African American children whether they preferred a black baby doll or white baby doll. The findings showed that most African American children had a preference for the white baby dolls.

I stumbled across this video and was very disturbed. Why do you think that this day in age these children had the same responses?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqSFqnUFOns

Obviously there are socio-economic aspects that separate blacks and whites still to this day...however it really bothers me that all these years later not much has changed.

What do you think?

 

[graceanne]

I have to say I'm surprised. I mean, I know predudice still exists. When my girls started hanging out with a little girl in our apartment complex, who's black, she (the little girl) asked me if I minded her hanging out, cause she's black. I literally gaped at her, and said 'I could care less if you're black."

The reason I'm surprised about the doll thing is cause on several occasions my girls have chosen the black barbie doll or the dollie. I guess I figured that it worked the same way for the black children - wanting the black dollie occasionally, too. I know that bratz dolls have a black doll, and my girls and my heart child own one of her.

 

[FFOTS4Life]

I have to say I'm surprised. I mean, I know predudice still exists. When my girls started hanging out with a little girl in our apartment complex, who's black, she (the little girl) asked me if I minded her hanging out, cause she's black. I literally gaped at her, and said 'I could care less if you're black."

The reason I'm surprised about the doll thing is cause on several occasions my girls have chosen the black barbie doll or the dollie. I guess I figured that it worked the same way for the black children - wanting the black dollie occasionally, too. I know that bratz dolls have a black doll, and my girls and my heart child own one of her.

It was very surprising...I will admit that I am probably a little naive about this all. I am a white girl who has grown up in a fairly well to do, predominantly white neighborhood...but I still find it shocking that racial division and inequality is still being engrained in the brains of young children this day in age.

 

[ecstaticsub]

It is very disturbing. I would like to see the experiment expanded. I would be interested to see the results with children from different economic backgrounds. I also would like to see if there is a difference in responses between Black children in predominantly Black schools, ones that are about equal, and then predominantly white. I would also like to see what the responses would be if a biracial or light black doll is used along with the white and darker black.

I would also like to see what a white child's responses would be to the same questions. I have a science background, I want to check as many variables as possible.

From observing my own children and living in mixed race neighborhoods the kids play together without any thought of skin color in elementary school. Starting late in middle school a division of self segregation begins. Maybe because this is when dating begins?

I grew up in predominatly white neighborhoods. It wasn't until getting together with my PYL as a interracial couple did I start to get a taste of the unbelievable hatred some people feel. We used to post pictures on a predominately white swingers site. The intensity of the hate mail I would recieve was a real eye opener to me. On the other hand he was used to it, unfortunately.

 

[rida]

I wonder if part of the reason is because in almost all the fairy tales, Disney style, the good girl/heroin has fair skin.

As a kid I remember noticing that in almost all stories, the character with dark hair (like me) was always the bad guy/girl and I hated that. I was the only not totally white kid in my neighborhood and in my school for almost all my schooling. Things have changed now and the ethnic composition of my home town is fairly diverse.

Regarding dolls, I never liked them much. But I remember when a they released the black baby version of a very famous doll, when I was in 4 grade, that I really wanted it and I got is as a Christmas present. They also had the asian baby ... but for some reason I had not made peace with that part of myself and hated it.

As a scientist (almost) myself, I thing that Ecstaticsubs idea for expanding the study are really good and would give a better picture of what's going on. I'm not dismissing the impression from this video, but it is also important to understand the data if we want to be able to address the problem.

 

[00Syd]

First black Disney Princess is coming out soon, fyi.

 

[Netzach]

Partly media. Partly parental. I remember asking for a black doll once because we had one in kindergarten and it seemed normal and my family was like "why would you want THAT?" so, I clammed up.

The message hasn't changed. The deliveries have gotten more subtle, though.

I do remember reading about studies though that among world cultures just about wherever you go, the darker the person's complexion the lower on the social strata the person is "supposed to be" - whatever the society looks like on the whole. People pick the lighter person for promotion and attribute good attributes to them based on photos and fast questions. There may be some deep-seated free-floating paranoia.

Then again bias is so complicated and so pervasive that the tests themselves could be biased to justify skin color bias as something other than racism plain and simple.

 

[Primalex]

Ha, an opportunity to write about my childhood without creating a thread. This is a story my mom told me recently. Unfortunately I have very few memories left from this time.

So, there is little Primalex, imagine how his Mom drives him to the kindergarden/nursery. So, while my Mom speaks with the female teacher there, I decide that talking adults are no fun, but toys are. So I run to the boy sitting all alone in the corner because he has the most fun looking toys (okay, the last part is merely assumption). The teacher, a professional obviously, as she is noticing every movement, sees my intended course and the conversation between her and my mom changes and goes like this:
"Oh no, Mrs. P., don't let your son play with this boy!"
"Uhm.. what?"
"Don't let your son play with this boy there!"
Mrs. P. turns around.
"What? Ahem... but.. why not?"
"His parents are... poor!"
"What?"
"His parents are poor farmers."
"Ahem.."
Little Primalex is already sitting next to the boy, playing with him together.
"Don't let them play together. He is a bully."
"Uhm..well.. but it looks like they get along well."
"But you can't let them be together."
"But they just play together. Do you expect me to go to them and take him away again?!"
"He is wearing gumboots and dungarees!"

My mom did of course not stop me from playing with this kid (the funny thing: we both share the same given name). I have no idea if the teacher tried this, but I don't think very successfully (I was stubborn then already), because I remember being friends with him for some time. He _was_ a bully, yes - but I'm not surprised. And he left me alone. No surprise either.


Now back to the topic:
I don't think the teacher is some kind of evil incarnation. I think what the teacher displays here is a natural part of every human. The desire to separate "things", to "classify" them and to.. "belittle" those "elements" belonging to the classes with lesser elements in them. If it's not black or white, it's poor or rich, blonde or brunette, dom or sub. Put a poor guy into a group of rich guys and put a rich guy into a group of poor guys. The different one will be treated the same way in both groups.

You get different results depending on the elements. In one group, there will be just a racial joke, in another group he might get killed. But I think the core.. the disdain of the different.. will be the same.

Racial discrimination is just so prominent, because it's the easiest way to classify people. You can hide your income, you can hide your hair color, you can hide your accent - but you can't hide your race.

 

[graceanne]

I wonder if part of the reason is because in almost all the fairy tales, Disney style, the good girl/heroin has fair skin.

Ok, I know - devils advocate and all that. But not ALL of them are fair skinned - Jasmine is arabic and has dark skin, dark eyes, and dark hair. And same with Pocahantas - although she's native american. I have to admit though, that I'd love to start seeing Disney put out more ethnically diverse movies. Sadly, I bet the moves with the black princess don't sell well.

 

[rida]

Ok, I know - devils advocate and all that. But not ALL of them are fair skinned - Jasmine is arabic and has dark skin, dark eyes, and dark hair. And same with Pocahantas - although she's native american. I have to admit though, that I'd love to start seeing Disney put out more ethnically diverse movies. Sadly, I bet the moves with the black princess don't sell well.

True that.

But I though about it a bit more today and together with Netzach comment that even not white communities prefer the faired skinned ones ... I remembered a comment than my grandma made once about the fact that in the past it used to be that rich and noble people had nice and fair skin while the farmers/poors where the one with the dark sun tanned/burned skin. I think there is also something to be said for that. Some sort of social discrimination that we associate with darker skin.

Case in point, it is considered a sign of elegance and beauty to have a white skin even here, when everybody would be considered ... yellow.

 

[graceanne]

True that.

But I though about it a bit more today and together with Netzach comment that even not white communities prefer the faired skinned ones ... I remembered a comment than my grandma made once about the fact that in the past it used to be that rich and noble people had nice and fair skin while the farmers/poors where the one with the dark sun tanned/burned skin. I think there is also something to be said for that. Some sort of social discrimination that we associate with darker skin.

Case in point, it is considered a sign of elegance and beauty to have a white skin even here, when everybody would be considered ... yellow.

Oh, I agree with what she says, about the history of it. I personally think that it's a matter of; it used to be that people who were tan worked outside for a living - farmers, etc. The darker you were the more likely it was that you spent your time outside. To remain fair you had to be pretty well off, so fairness was a sign of status.

 

[rida]

Oh, I agree with what she says, about the history of it. I personally think that it's a matter of; it used to be that people who were tan worked outside for a living - farmers, etc. The darker you were the more likely it was that you spent your time outside. To remain fair you had to be pretty well off, so fairness was a sign of status.

Yep.
And somehow we still react to it the same way.

Unless you have a tan in the middle of winter ... and than it means you are well off and can afford cruises or vacations in the Caribbeans or other exotic locations.

Under angle to consider: do we associate darker skin with darkness and the fear that it evokes? Is it that why even black society discriminate the darker ones?

 

[clock1]

I do remember reading about studies though that among world cultures just about wherever you go, the darker the person's complexion the lower on the social strata the person is "supposed to be" - whatever the society looks like on the whole. People pick the lighter person for promotion and attribute good attributes to them based on photos and fast questions. There may be some deep-seated free-floating paranoia.

It is interesting to note how often in the Black community a slur is to call someone "black". I once observed a teen African American girl comment she was prettier than her friend (who was actually much prettier) because the friend was black.

Another young African American woman (medium complexion) I was talking with was dating a very dark skinned young man. I asked her if she thought they would get married (they had been dating over a year). She quickly exclaimed "Oh No!"

When I asked why she simple explained, "My mom doesn't want any black grandbabies."

The causes can be studied more accurately and forever (thank you Netzach and rida) and we might someday understand all of this. Understanding something and changing it are often completely different tasks though.

 

[Etoile]

The video makes me sad. I hate that kids still grow up thinking that way, 40 years after de-segregation.

 

[FFOTS4Life]

Very interesting thoughts...I have to agree with much of what you all said. Especially Netz and rida.

You are right Etoile it is sad. It broke my heart when I came across it. I couldn't get it off my mind...that's why I posted it here. It just opens my eyes even more...we may be a free country that claims that everyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps but, for young minority children who seem to already have this idea of white is better then whatever color ingrained in their psyche, I wonder how realistic we are being to think such a thing.

BTW I think if I remember correctly the newest Disney princess (the first African-American princess) is supposed to hail from 1920's New Orleans...I think it is supposed to be some version of the frog prince.

 

[Etoile]

Funny that we've already had Arab, Chinese, and Native American princesses (Jasmine, Mulan, Pocahontas) and we still don't have any African American ones. Huh.

 

[00Syd]

Funny that we've already had Arab, Chinese, and Native American princesses (Jasmine, Mulan, Pocahontas) and we still don't have any African American ones. Huh.

(obviously this doesn't apply to more recent decades) but Walt Disney was a notorious racist. He was probably rolling in his grave the second Jasmine and her flowing black hair hit the screen. I think its a good step in the right direction that Disney is coming out with a black princess, though its probably too little too late.

 

[YourCaptor]

(obviously this doesn't apply to more recent decades) but Walt Disney was a notorious racist. He was probably rolling in his grave the second Jasmine and her flowing black hair hit the screen. I think its a good step in the right direction that Disney is coming out with a black princess, though its probably too little too late.

I doubt hes rolling, they where all super stereotypical, just like he likes em.

 

[00Syd]

I doubt hes rolling, they where all super stereotypical, just like he likes em.

Sure, but they were still strong women and -gasp- the heroine of her own movie.

 

[Etoile]

Sure, but they were still strong women and -gasp- the heroine of her own movie.

Jasmine had her own movie?! I never saw anything but the original. Love that Robin Williams Genie!

 

[00Syd]

Jasmine had her own movie?! I never saw anything but the original. Love that Robin Williams Genie!

Ach, no, I just mean Aladdin. Yes, yes it was Aladdin's movie, but she was the heroine. I often think of all the Disney movies with princesses as the princesses' movie. They are the super star anyway.

 

[graceanne]

Ach, no, I just mean Aladdin. Yes, yes it was Aladdin's movie, but she was the heroine. I often think of all the Disney movies with princesses as the princesses' movie. They are the super star anyway.

To some people. I watch for the sidekicks - they're the best part of disney movies.

 

[agibean]

Ok, this is something I know a lot about, having a black husband and a biracial daughter. D has been raised with dolls of all kinds, but she prefers the black or light brown ones (I believe they're supposed to be Latina, but they are DD's shade). However, she hasn't always been comfortable in her skin.

When she was a 3 yo, she turned to me in tears and said, "I want to be white like you!" When I asked why, she said simply, "White people are better." My heart still breaks for her 6 years later when I recall that day.

But it makes perfect sense-when you watch Disney (yes, we're waiting with baited breath the new movie), when you watch TV ,when you watch the damn commercials for that matter-you don't see many black kids, unless they're in an ad for drug prevention or help for the needy. EVen the toy ads have only recently shown kids of color actually PLAYING with DOLLS of color-and don't get me started on how hard it is to find a card with a black child or family on it. Biracial families in the media? Just short of non-existant.

Things are changing though-although we as a family and individually have seen discrimination up close, my older D who is white and 18 has always had friends of many races-they date interracially as well. I see that as a positive step.

We're working through a new challenge right now as the younger one's school is 95% white and she's feeling very shy about making new friends. It wasn't an easy decision, but it has the program she needed. We will have to see whether we made the right choice.

My husband, a white collar professional, still gets followed around in stores, and in the scope of his work see emails from the public about political issues-the rampant racism blows me away.

I can tell you a little bit about the reason there is still some tension between lighter skin blacks and darker ones. It goes back to slavery. The lighter ones were chosen for the house duty, where they dealt with the public, and also played off against the darker ones in the fields and more meanial jobs. But of course, the media plays a part, as do those who perpetuate the tension.

My D has been on the receiving end of this more than once (keep in mind that she's only 9). Darker black kids have given her shit for being "too white" while being harassed for being black by white kids.

Anyway, the repeat of the study did not surprise me at all. Made me sad though. Have we come a long way? Sure. Is there a long way to go? You bet.

Going back to lurkdom.

Agi

 

[FFOTS4Life]

Ok, this is something I know a lot about, having a black husband and a biracial daughter. D has been raised with dolls of all kinds, but she prefers the black or light brown ones (I believe they're supposed to be Latina, but they are DD's shade). However, she hasn't always been comfortable in her skin.

When she was a 3 yo, she turned to me in tears and said, "I want to be white like you!" When I asked why, she said simply, "White people are better." My heart still breaks for her 6 years later when I recall that day.

But it makes perfect sense-when you watch Disney (yes, we're waiting with baited breath the new movie), when you watch TV ,when you watch the damn commercials for that matter-you don't see many black kids, unless they're in an ad for drug prevention or help for the needy. EVen the toy ads have only recently shown kids of color actually PLAYING with DOLLS of color-and don't get me started on how hard it is to find a card with a black child or family on it. Biracial families in the media? Just short of non-existant.

Things are changing though-although we as a family and individually have seen discrimination up close, my older D who is white and 18 has always had friends of many races-they date interracially as well. I see that as a positive step.

We're working through a new challenge right now as the younger one's school is 95% white and she's feeling very shy about making new friends. It wasn't an easy decision, but it has the program she needed. We will have to see whether we made the right choice.

My husband, a white collar professional, still gets followed around in stores, and in the scope of his work see emails from the public about political issues-the rampant racism blows me away.

I can tell you a little bit about the reason there is still some tension between lighter skin blacks and darker ones. It goes back to slavery. The lighter ones were chosen for the house duty, where they dealt with the public, and also played off against the darker ones in the fields and more meanial jobs. But of course, the media plays a part, as do those who perpetuate the tension.

My D has been on the receiving end of this more than once (keep in mind that she's only 9). Darker black kids have given her shit for being "too white" while being harassed for being black by white kids.

Anyway, the repeat of the study did not surprise me at all. Made me sad though. Have we come a long way? Sure. Is there a long way to go? You bet.

Going back to lurkdom.

Agi

Thanks so much for posting...it was nice to have your insight...especially because of the kind of relationship you are in.

I think you broke it down so well in the part that I bolded...hope to see you around these parts more often!

 

[Toa_lin]

i agree to the fact racism is still occurring. but I'd like to throw out there one more point.


Everything in society, race based or not, good is always represented by brighter things. We're taught from a young age the color white means good and innocent, and black means bad and dangerous. I'm an art student here, and the brain works to atribute brighter colors with better things. Better life, better destiny, better mood, etc. Darker colors with gloom, danger, sickness, bad things

And from day one, kids are seeing that too. So maybe, possibly, they chose that doll cus it's lighter, not because of racism, but the mentality of achromatic color in general.

Just my two cents here. I do beleive racism is part of it, but not as much as they show.