Breath Play

[Iriadne]

I know this can be a hot button issue for some of us due to the potential safety concerns but I'd like to start a little bit of discussion on the topic of breath play.
First, my PYL is highly medically trained, so I feel that we're covered on the "what if" section and the safety section. I would like to get some ideas for play of this sort that is not to the extreme of asphyxiation.
I have experimented in this area much more than my PYL has, if that makes any difference.
~I

 

[catalina_francisco]

Not sure what you are wanting, but you might find some of the answers in some of the threads under Breath Play in the Library. Hopefully others will also add to the discussion in a way which helps. Enjoy.

Catalina

 

[Iriadne]

I've been through the threads on the library and was hoping for something a little bit more descriptive to give to my PYL. I'm fairly familiar with the concept but only having been on the receiving end of these ministrations I'm not sure how to explain them to Him. Unfortunately, the Dom who introduced me to this play is no longer in contact with His former partners.
~I

 

[kaeyron]

Catalina,

I have looked through the threads in this regards in the library and I have problems finding the information which I am looking for. I am a medic with a strong cardiology background and understand the potential intrisic danger of this type of play. But it is something my pyl is extremely interested in and I would to have all the information at my disposal so we do this the right way with all appropiate safeguards in place.

What I am contemplating doing is using a bag-valve-mask (a device used in CPR and Rescue Breathing) that has an airtight seal and control the influx of air to her. Which standard medical practice says between 8 and 28 breaths per minute is within "standard" rates of respiration for the average adult.

I figure I can reduce her breathing down to 1 breathe ever 7 or 8 seconds and that is still within in medical safety standards or I can increase her rate of respirations up to 1 breathe every 2 to 2 1/2 minutes (still within in acceptable ranges).

What I need is descriptive narative on how to do this type of play. I want to do everything correct and make sure that she enjoys the activity as much as I can see myself enjoy administering it to her.

If people are uncomfortable replying to this publically, please feel free to write to me privately.

p.s. FYI, I am the PYL which Iriadne is refering to ...

 

[FurryFury]

I was once fascinated by the idea of breath play, even cybered it some but one night in RL with my hands tied behind my back being pushed onto a down comforter took care of that except in fantasy. I sort of panicked in a major way!

Fury

 

[Shankara20]

I was once fascinated by the idea of breath play, even cybered it some but one night in RL with my hands tied behind my back being pushed onto a down comforter took care of that except in fantasy. I sort of panicked in a major way!

Fury

I was tied in a harness one night being fisted by Ma’am and her understudy. I was nervous and running off at the mouth. She reached from above my head – placed her hand over my mouth and pinched my nose closed. I clenched my ass so much I think the understudy almost lost her hard. That was 10 years ago and I can remember that moment like it just happened. I realized how totally helpless I was. I was very quiet the rest of the night. And I felt incredible alive fully in that moment – and I never want to do that again.

 

[FurryFury]

I was tied in a harness one night being fisted by Ma’am and her understudy. I was nervous and running off at the mouth. She reached from above my head – placed her hand over my mouth and pinched my nose closed. I clenched my ass so much I think the understudy almost lost her hard. That was 10 years ago and I can remember that moment like it just happened. I realized how totally helpless I was. I was very quiet the rest of the night. And I felt incredible alive fully in that moment – and I never want to do that again.

We seem to have a lot of common points!

Fury

 

[AngelicAssassin]

What I need is descriptive narative on how to do this type of play. I want to do everything correct and make sure that she enjoys the activity as much as I can see myself enjoy administering it to her.

Safety first.

Based on your apparatus description, she can't speak a safe word if she panics. Give her something bright, and noticeable to hold in her hand. If she drops it, you stop. It doesn't matter if she drops it mid-orgasm from loss of control on her part. Play stops.

As for things to do, that comes from inside your head. If you know that much about the human respiratory system, you have a good idea what increases that flow, whether depth of breath, or breaths per minute. If you know your partner, you know what will provoke her involuntary respiratory reactions. Therein lies the twist: how to ride a rather deadly razor and get the most out of it.

Just remember, if her "safe word" falls from her hand, play stops.

 

[graceanne]

Safety first.

Based on your apparatus description, she can't speak a safe word if she panics. Give her something bright, and noticeable to hold in her hand. If she drops it, you stop. It doesn't matter if she drops it mid-orgasm from loss of control on her part. Play stops.

As for things to do, that comes from inside your head. If you know that much about the human respiratory system, you have a good idea what increases that flow, whether depth of breath, or breaths per minute. If you know your partner, you know what will provoke her involuntary respiratory reactions. Therein lies the twist: how to ride a rather deadly razor and get the most out of it.

Just remember, if her "safe word" falls from her hand, play stops.

I snap if I'm getting scared.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I was once fascinated by the idea of breath play, even cybered it some but one night in RL with my hands tied behind my back being pushed onto a down comforter took care of that except in fantasy. I sort of panicked in a major way!

Fury

LOL, which is why we often mention here that comparing online experiences to RL rarely come out as the same experience or comparable in terms of 'how it feels' or 'what is safe'.

Catalina

 

[kaeyron]

We are talking about getting a ball with bells that way its an audible "safe word" when she can't speak ...

Thank you all for your replies, this is helping me think of what we need and how to go about doing it all ... =)

 

[Bandit58]

Breath play is a hard limit for me. I will start to panic a bit if Master has His cock down my throat and I can't catch my breath. I have a safe signal for when that happens - 3 taps on His leg or butt and He pulls back to give me some air

*Still haven't learned to breathe through my ears*

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

I know this can be a hot button issue for some of us due to the potential safety concerns but I'd like to start a little bit of discussion on the topic of breath play.
First, my PYL is highly medically trained, so I feel that we're covered on the "what if" section and the safety section. I would like to get some ideas for play of this sort that is not to the extreme of asphyxiation.
I have experimented in this area much more than my PYL has, if that makes any difference.
~I

I start this post stating with complete honestly that I have huge issues of a negative nature with 'breath play' . I have discussed the possible ramifications of this specific form of edge play many times over the years and have yet to be able to reconcile personally that people participate in it. The topic always leads to my wrist being slapped verbally for not taking the 'embracing all kinks agenda'. There are some threads I just stay away from for varying personal reasons , I saw this one 'arrive' yesterday and decided to think on it awhile. Here are my thoughts.

Naturally as I have such disdain for 'breathplay' I have amassed over time a large manifesto of credible documentation that even broken down into sub categories should be deterrent enough for exploring this activity. I have documentation from reputable Neurologists, well defined Legal Documentation dealing predominantly with the 'what if factor' and a lifetime of hands on experience contending with the chronic ramifications of someone I love dearly who suffers to this very day as a result of hypoxia.

Putting all the above mentioned aside the aspect of your and Kaetron's posts as a new couple to Ds and one partner who states clearly as having little experience of BDSM activity is WHY ? Why are you so concerned with a form of edge play that is usually relegated very close to hard limits for most ?

Just seems quite odd to me that a novitiates to the craft of BDSM would concern themselves so. Perhaps I am being naive , Kaeyron's reply about his experience as a Doctor seemed so cavalier as to his ability to 'administer' breathplay.If I am 'off task' with how I have perceived your dual comments Iriadne and Kaeyron then you have my apologies in advance. I in fact wish you both well.

Control Tower
Take a Deep Breath

BY MISTRESS MATISSE

I was reading a BDSM message board lately when a woman asked a question about how to find partners. She didn't need a serious kinkster, she said, because she had what she called "a vanilla fetish." Want to hazard a guess what her kink was? Erotic breath-control play. She liked being strangled during sex.

Oh, that's scary. She thinks because it doesn't require whips or black leather that what gets her off is entry-level. She couldn't be more wrong, and it's a mistake that may wind up costing her dearly.

Most types of BDSM aren't life threatening. However, a few practices that come under the "fetish" umbrella can, if they go badly, result in serious injury or death. Electrical play, for example, can interfere with the action of the heart if not done properly. A botched rope-bondage suspension can lead to a nasty fall. However, with most types of what BDSM people call "edge play," following strict rules of technique will greatly ameliorate the risk. So I follow those rules, and I do those kinds of play.

But breath play—limiting or denying someone the ability to breathe, either by suffocation or strangulation—is unquestionably the type of edge play with the highest potential for harm and the lowest controllable margin of safety. SM 101 author Jay Wiseman has done a great deal of research on breath play, and he states: "I know of no way whatsoever that either suffocation or strangulation can be done in a way that does not intrinsically put the recipient at risk of cardiac arrest… I know of no reliable way to determine when such a cardiac arrest has become imminent." Read that again: Cutting off someone's breathing can make them have a heart attack, and there is no way to really know if that's just about to happen. Watching your partner closely, or telling them to signal you if they're about to pass out, will not prevent a disaster.

Jay also notes, "If the recipient does arrest, the probability of resuscitating them, even with optimal CPR, is distinctly small." In the U.S., there are at least 250 reported deaths each year from breath play gone wrong (according to The Medical Realities of Breath Control Play by Jay Wiseman), and I can find no statistic on any other type of kink-related fatalities that even approaches that figure. Even if you don't have a heart attack, there are a lot of other ways to go wrong, ranging from rupturing blood vessels in someone's eyes to cumulative brain damage.

Why would someone find it sexy to be unable to breathe? It varies. Some people acknowledge that the risk is part of the thrill. Others say that putting their lives into a partner's hands is a sign of trust, and some feel that it's the ultimate loss of control.

But pretty much everyone who does breath control mentions that it increases the intensity of their orgasm. That's why some of those breath control deaths happen when guys (and a few women) strangle themselves while masturbating. They think they'll be able to stop in time. But you can't reliably know if you're about to get into trouble, any more than a partner would. And passing out alone, with a noose around your neck? Well, I hope you checked the "organ donor" box on your driver's license.

Given all these facts, I absolutely will not do breath play. I hear a certain amount of whining about that from the "But I really, really want you too, Mistress!" demographic. The Mistress says: Too bad. Dominants have limits, too, and that's one of mine. For one thing, I don't fancy being arrested for murder if the worst happens. I doubt I'd get much sympathy from a jury even if I convinced them it had been consensual. And I don't want to have to live with the knowledge that I've killed someone, even accidentally.

I also think that I've got the talent and the skills to create intense experiences for people without putting them in such real and imminent danger of death. Yes, life is full of risks, and accidents can happen in other types of kinky scenes, too. But with some creativity and some experimentation, one can devise hot and satisfying ways of getting off without relying on oxygen deprivation. I'm much happier engaging in other, safer ways of taking someone's breath away.

 

[Iriadne]

With all respect, Mistress Rebecca:
Kaeyron and I have discussed your point of view intensively. Neither one of us is particularly interested in playing on this razor edge of STOPPING the ability to breathe. For us, the thrill comes with His control of my breathing. Thus the description of the bag valve mask as a means of controlling rate of respiration WITHIN the medically accepted limits.
To your comments regarding experience I can only say the following. First, that I have been exploring BDSM and this particular kink for several years at the hands of professional or highly experienced Dominants. Secondly, that the purpose of this thread was as much to start discussion of potential risks so that Kaeyron could develop an understanding of the dynamic of this play as it was to learn techniques.
I feel no need for you to apologize for your opinion of this play to myself or anyone else. One of the first things I was taught as a submissive was to be open to everyone's opinions as you could learn much from those who disagreed with you. I find the hard research and numbers you were able to provide to be an excellent back up to a point. I only wish that all of us here could have such concrete evidence when we begin to contradict the topic of a thread.
~i

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

With all respect, Mistress Rebecca:
Kaeyron and I have discussed your point of view intensively. Neither one of us is particularly interested in playing on this razor edge of STOPPING the ability to breathe. For us, the thrill comes with His control of my breathing. Thus the description of the bag valve mask as a means of controlling rate of respiration WITHIN the medically accepted limits.
To your comments regarding experience I can only say the following. First, that I have been exploring BDSM and this particular kink for several years at the hands of professional or highly experienced Dominants. Secondly, that the purpose of this thread was as much to start discussion of potential risks so that Kaeyron could develop an understanding of the dynamic of this play as it was to learn techniques.
I feel no need for you to apologize for your opinion of this play to myself or anyone else. One of the first things I was taught as a submissive was to be open to everyone's opinions as you could learn much from those who disagreed with you. I find the hard research and numbers you were able to provide to be an excellent back up to a point. I only wish that all of us here could have such concrete evidence when we begin to contradict the topic of a thread.
~i

Perhaps this may assist in providing further information for you both. Permission has been given to post this by the Author Jay Wiseman. Its more medically orientated and gives several excellent references towards the end.

The Medical Realities of Breath Control Play
Copyright © 1997 by Jay Wiseman, author of SM 101: A Realistic Introduction. All rights reserved.

For some time now, I have felt that the practices of suffocation and/or strangulation done in an erotic context (generically known as breath control play; more properly known as asphyxiophilia) were in fact far more dangerous than they are generally perceived to be. As a person with years of medical education and experience, I know of no way whatsoever that either suffocation or strangulation can be done in a way that does not intrinsically put the recipient at risk of cardiac arrest. (There are also numerous additional risks; more on them later.) Furthermore, and my *biggest* concern, I know of no reliable way to determine when such a cardiac arrest has become imminent.

Often the first detectable sign that an arrest is approaching is the arrest itself. Furthermore, if the recipient does arrest, the probability of resuscitating them, even with optimal CPR, is distinctly small. Thus the recipient is dead and their partner, if any, is in a very perilous legal situation. (The authorities could consider such deaths first-degree murders until proven otherwise, with the burden of such proof being on the defendant). There are also the real and major concerns of the surviving partner's own life-long remorse to having caused such a death, and the trauma to the friends and family members of both parties.

Some breath control fans say that what they do is acceptably safe because they do not take what they do up to the point of unconsciousness. I find this statement worrisome for two reasons: (1) You can't really know when a person is about to go unconscious until they actually do so, thus it's extremely difficult to know where the actual point of unconsciousness is until you actually reach it. (2) More importantly, unconsciousness is a symptom, not a condition in and of itself. It has numerous underlying causes ranging from simple fainting to cardiac arrest, and which of these will cause the unconsciousness cannot be known in advance.

I have discussed my concerns regarding breath control with well over a dozen SM-positive physicians, and with numerous other SM-positive health professionals, and all share my concerns. We have discussed how breath control might be done in a way that is not life-threatening, and come up blank. We have discussed how the risk might be significantly reduced, and come up blank. We have discussed how it might be determined that an arrest is imminent, and come up blank.

Indeed, so far not one (repeat, not one) single physician, nurse, paramedic, chiropractor, physiologist, or other person with substantial training in how a human body works has been willing to step forth and teach a form of breath control play that they are willing to assert is acceptably safe -- i.e., does not put the recipient at imminent, unpredictable risk of dying. I believe this fact makes a major statement.

Other "edge play" topics such as suspension bondage, electricity play, cutting, piercing, branding, enemas, water sports, and scat play can and have been taught with reasonable safety, but not breath control play. Indeed, it seems that the more somebody knows about how a human body works, the more likely they are to caution people about how dangerous breath control is, and about how little can be done to reduce the degree of risk.

In many ways, oxygen is to the human body, and particularly to the heart and brain, what oil is to a car's engine. Indeed, there's a medical adage that goes "hypoxia (becoming dangerously low on oxygen) not only stops the motor, but also wrecks the engine." Therefore, asking how one can play safely with breath control is very similar to asking how one can drive a car safely while draining it of oil.

Some people tell the "mechanics" something like, "Well, I'm going to drain my car of oil anyway, and I'm not going to keep track of how low the oil level is getting while I'm driving my car, so tell me how to do this with as much safety as possible." (They may even add someting like "Hey, I always shut the engine off before it catches fire.") They then get frustrated when the mechanics scratch their heads and say that they don't know. They may even label such mechanics as "anti-education."

A bit about my background may help explain my concerns. I was an ambulance crewman for over eight years. I attended medical school for three years, and passed my four-year boards, (then ran out of money). I am a former member of the American Academy of Family Physicians and a former American Heart Association instructor in Advanced Cardiac Life Support. I have an extensive martial arts background that includes a first-degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do. My martial arts training included several months of judo that involved both my choking and being choked.

I have been an instructor in first aid, CPR, and various advanced emergency care techniques for over sixteen years. My students have included physicians, nurses, paramedics, police officers, fire fighters, wilderness emergency personnel, martial artists, and large numbers of ordinary citizens. I currently offer both basic and advanced first aid and CPR training to the SM community.

During my ambulance days, I responded to at least one call involving the death of a young teenage boy who died from autoerotic strangulation, and to several other calls where this was suspected but could not be confirmed. (Family members often "sanitize" such scenes before calling 911.) Additionally, I personally know two members of my local SM community who went to prison after their partners died during breath control play.

The primary danger of suffocation play is that it is not a condition that gets worse over time (regarding the heart, anyway, it does get worse over time regarding the brain). Rather, what happens is that the more the play is prolonged, the greater the odds that a cardiac arrest will occur. Sometimes even one minute of suffocation can cause this; sometimes even less.

Quick pathophysiology lesson # 1: When the heart gets low on oxygen, it starts to fire off "extra" pacemaker sites. These usually appear in the ventricles and are thus called premature ventricular contractions -- PVC's for short. If a PVC happens to fire off during the electrical repolarization phase of cardiac contraction (the dreaded "PVC on T" phenomenon, also sometimes called "R on T") it can kick the heart over into ventricular fibrillation -- a form of cardiac arrest. The lower the heart gets on oxygen, the more PVC's it generates, and the more vulnerable to their effect it becomes, thus hypoxia increases both the probability of a PVC-on-T occurring and of its causing a cardiac arrest.

When this will happen to a particular person in a particular session is simply not predictable. This is exactly where most of the medical people I have discussed this topic with "hit the wall." Virtually all medical folks know that PVC's are both life-threating and hard to detect unless the patient is hooked to a cardiac monitor. When medical folks discuss breath control play, the question quickly becomes: How can you tell when they start throwing PVC's? The answer is: You basically can't.

Quick pathophysiology lesson # 2: When breathing is restricted, the body cannot eliminate carbon dioxide as it should, and the amount of carbon dioxide in the blood increases. Carbon dioxide (CO2) and water (H2O) exist in equilibrium with what's called carbonic acid (H2CO3) in a reaction catalyzed by an enzyme called carbonic anhydrase. (Sorry, but I can't do subscripts in this program.)

Thus: CO2 + H2O <carbonic anhydrase> H2CO3

A molecule of carbonic acid dissociates on its own into a molecule of what's called bicarbonate (HCO3-) and an (acidic) hydrogen ion. (H+)

Thus: H2CO3 <> HCO3- and H+

Thus the overall pattern is:

H2O + CO2 <> H2CO3 <> HCO3- + H+

Therefore, if breathing is restricted, CO2 builds up and the reaction shifts to the right in an attempt to balance things out, ultimately making the blood more acidic and thus decreasing its pH. This is called respiratory acidosis. (If the patient hyperventilates, they "blow off CO2" and the reaction shifts to the left, thus increasing the pH. This is called respiratory alkalosis, and has its own dangers.)

Quick pathophysiology lesson # 3:

Again, if breathing is restricted, not only does carbon dioxide have a hard time getting out, but oxygen also has a hard time getting in. A molecule of glucose (C6H12O6) breaks down within the cell by a process called glycolysis into two molecules of pyruvate, thus creating a small amount of ATP for the body to use as energy. Under normal circumstances, pyruvate quickly combines with oxygen to produce a much larger amount of ATP. However, if there's not enough oxygen to properly metabolize the pyruvate, it is converted to lactic acid and produces one form of what's called a metabolic acidosis.

As you can see, either a build-up in the blood of carbon dioxide or a decrease in the blood of oxygen will cause the pH of the blood to fall. If both occur at the same time, as they do in cases of suffocation, the pH of the blood will plummet to life-threatening levels within a very few minutes. The pH of normal human blood is in the 7.35 to 7.45 range (slightly alkaline). A pH falling to 6.9 (or raising to 7.8) is "incompatible with life."

Past experience, either with others or with that same person, is not particularly useful. Carefully watching their level of consciousness, skin color, and pulse rate is of only limited value. Even hooking the bottom up to both a pulse oximeter and a cardiac monitor (assuming you had either piece of equipment, and they're not cheap) would be of only limited additional value.

While an experienced clinician can sometimes detect PVC's by feeling the patient's pulse, in reality the only reliable way to detect them is to hook the patient up to a cardiac monitor. The problem is that each PVC is potentially lethal, particularly if the heart is low on oxygen. Even if you "ease up" on the bottom immediately, there's no telling when the PVC's will stop. They could stop almost at once, or they could continue for hours.

In addition to the primary danger of cardiac arrest, there is good evidence to document that there is a very real risk of cumulative brain damage if the practice is repeated often enough. In particular, laboratory studies of repeated brief interruption of blood flow to the brains of animals and studies of people with what's called "sleep apnea syndrome" (in which they stop breathing for up to two minutes while sleeping) document that cumulative brain damage does occur in such cases.

There are many documented additional dangers. These include, but are _not_ limited to: rupture of the windpipe, fracture of the larynx, damage to the blood vessels in the neck, dislodging a fatty plaque in a neck artery which then travels to the brain and causes a stroke, damage to the cervical spine, seizures, airway obstruction by the tongue, and aspiration of vomitus. Additionally, there are documented cases in which the recipient appeared to fully recover but was found dead several hours later.

The American Psychiatric Association estimates a death rate of one person per year per million of population -- thus about 250 deaths last year in the U.S. Law enforcement estimates go as much as four times higher. Most such deaths occur during solo play, however there are many documented cases of deaths that occurred during play with a partner. It should be noted that the presence of a partner does nothing to limit the primary danger, and does little or nothing to limit most of the secondary dangers.

Some people teach that choking can be safely done if pressure on the windpipe is avoided. Their belief is that pressing on the arteries leading to the brain while avoiding pressure on the windpipe can safely cause unconsciousness. The reality, unfortunately, is that pressing on the carotid arteries, _exactly_ as they recommend, presses on baroreceptors known as the carotid sinus bodies. These bodies then cause vasodilation in the brain, thus there is not enough blood to perfuse the brain and the recipient loses consciousness. However, that's not the whole story.

Unfortunately, a message is also sent to the main pacemaker of the heart, via the vagus nerve, to decrease the rate and force of the heartbeat. Most of the time, under strong vagal influence, the rate and force of the heartbeat decreases by one third. However, every now and then, the rate and force decreases to zero and the bottom "flatlines" into asystole --another, and more difficult to treat, form of cardiac arrest. There is no way to tell whether or not this will happen in any particular instance, or how quickly. There are many documented cases of as little as five seconds of choking causing a vagal-outlfow-induced cardiac arrest.

For the reason cited above, many police departments have now either entirely banned the use of choke holds or have reclassified them as a form of deadly force. Indeed, a local CHP officer recently had a $250,000 judgment brought against him after a nonviolent suspect died while being choked by him.

Finally, as a CPR instructor myself, I want to caution that knowing CPR does little to make the risk of death from breath control play significantly smaller. While CPR can and should be done, understand that the probability of success is likely to be less than 10%.

I'm not going to state that breath control is something that nobody should ever do under any circumstances. I have no problem with informed, freely consenting people taking any degree of risk they wish. I am going to state that there is a great deal of ignorance regarding what actually happens to a body when it's suffocated or strangled, and that the actual degree of risk associated with these practices is far greater than most people believe.

I have noticed that, when people are educated regarding the severity and unpredictability of the risks, fewer and fewer choose to play in this area, and those who do continue tend to play less often. I also notice that, because of its severe and unpredictable risks, more and more SM party-givers are banning any form of breath control play at their events.

If you'd like to look into this matter further, here are some references to get you started:

o Emergency Care in the Streets by Caroline (I'd recommend starting here.)
o Medical Physiology by Guyton
o The Pathologic Basis of Disease by Robbins
o Textbook of Advanced Cardiac Life Support by American Heart Association
o The Physiology Coloring Book by Kapit, Macey, and Meisami
o Forensic Pathology by DeMaio and Demaio
o Autoerotic Fatalities by Hazelwood
o Melloni's Illustrated Medical Dictionary by Dox, Melloni, and Eisner

People with questions or comments can contact me at http://www.greenerypress.com/ or write to me at
P.O. Box 1261, Berkeley, CA 94701.

Regards,
Jay Wiseman

PS Please for future reference just Rebecca is fine. It a dazzling change to be relegated to Domme overnight , one of which will amuse my Mentor and be the source of much teasing of me later today I am sure...smiles warmly

 

[Iriadne]

Rebecca,
I find this posting to be quite interesting (and do so forgive me if I misused a title. I thought I had read that into your previous post regarding this matter). This only reinforces our decision to avoid full cessation of breathing, what is referred to as strangulation in this article. I would love to hear your thoughts regarding the breath control aspect of this play - that is to say control over the number of breaths per minute that can be taken by the submissive. This is the aspect of this play that Kaeyron and I are more likely to be exploring in the near future. By controlling the rate of respiration, I believe there would be the same feeling of total control (which is the truly erotic part, IMHO) without the risk of brain damage that comes with insufficient oxygen supply.
~i

 

[kaeyron]

Rebecca,

I appreaciate your input and I will peruse that article at a later point .. but let me make one clarifications ... I am a medic, not a doctor ... I just have a strong base in the cardiology aspect of my protocol.... a medic is an all inclusive term meaning one who is an EMT with Advanced Life Support Credentialing.

Now to your concerns ... what Iriadne and I are contemplating is my controlling her rate of respirations and keeping them WELL within the proper guidelines for normal human breathing. The minimum of which is 8 breaths a minute ... which works out to roughly 1 breath every 7 to 8 seconds .. up to 28 breaths a minute (roughly one breathe every 2 to 2 1/2 seconds) ... at no point will her breathing be taking into any red line areas for the medical field. Have someone count how many breathes you take in a minute one day the number is about 14 to 18 ... now engage in some type of activity .. brisk walk ... work out ... fast bike ride ... your rate of breathing will go to between 30 and 32 ... now then sit still for a few minutes ... relax ... have a glass of wine if so inclined .. and your rate will drop to 8 to 12 ....

now notice what I had said about what range I plan on keeping Iriadne's breath inside ... the 8 to 28 range .. what we find interesting about this form of play is that she goes from controlling these basic functions to I am controlling them ... never and i repeat never will she go below into the asphixiation range ...

What we find intriguing is the control aspect of this ...

If it would make you feel more comfortable .. double check my thresholds for breathing with a credentialed medicinal practioner .. they will inform you that those are the ranges of an average adults respirations ...

 

[graceanne]

So, curiousity and the cat - and all that. I timed my breath. And including yelling at the kids I still only had 9 breaths in a minute. I'm pretty sure my breathing was more regular cause i was paying attention.

Cool - you learn something new everyday. lol

 

[jadefirefly]

Just to stick my nose out really quick...

I think the couple that originally posted this thread are getting rebecca, with the pretty rose around her name, mixed up with the Mistress Rebecca that wrote a post that another poster copied and pasted. Same name, not the same person!

And with that, I'm going to keep reading this thread, but I think I'll go into lurk-mode, now. I have my own likes and dislikes regarding this subject, but I think I'll just sit and watch for a while instead of trying to set foot into something as potentially touchy as this.

 

[Rrrosyn]

This thread has so much information it should be in the Library!

Question: Does the mask measure the breathing pace itself or do you?

Wondering because my main reason against extreme play like is, is that I have dizzy spells. As such, j is never put into a position he cannot get out of himself. I know it makes even bondage play more of an illusion than anything real, but it's safer for both of us. If he's gagged and we're using a dropped coin (love the bell idea), then he is usually bound in such a way that he could escape and ungag himself. Nothing is 100% safe (most accidents happen at home, bathroom, right?) but we try our best.

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

waves........smiles........on my way out here........a quick thought crossed my mind............... it didn't hurt honestly......laughs

I always forget because its a part of my training and something I employ frequently hence I take it for granted but have you ever considered Breath Control more along the lines of Pranayama. It definately requires mind control and works with muscle control as well. I haven't time to go into extensively at this moment ,was just hoping to add something positive before I leave here for a function. All my information has been 'hands on or off for that matter' and literature. Though I would be surprised to hear there was nothing available from one of the online search engines about it. Be well for now........ @}-}rebecca----

One of the Tantra Versions I would recommend from my Library is on another thread somewhere close around here

 

[sexymom]

Blood Oxygen Saturation

Although I wouldn't touch any aspect of breath play with a ten foot pole, I do have one suggestion that might help make it safer for those who insist. My husband has copd, and he has an oxygen saturation monitor. They aren't cheap, but most doctor's offices and respiratory therapy places have them. It has a little pinchy clamp that you put on your finger and it measures, non invasively, the oxygen saturation in your blood. Anything below 90% is not good, anything below 80% should definitely be avoided. Unfortunately, these machines do not monitor carbon dioxide retention.

 

[sweetsparkles]

I start this post stating with complete honestly that I have huge issues of a negative nature with 'breath play' . I have discussed the possible ramifications of this specific form of edge play many times over the years and have yet to be able to reconcile personally that people participate in it. The topic always leads to my wrist being slapped verbally for not taking the 'embracing all kinks agenda'. There are some threads I just stay away from for varying personal reasons , I saw this one 'arrive' yesterday and decided to think on it awhile. Here are my thoughts.

Naturally as I have such disdain for 'breathplay' I have amassed over time a large manifesto of credible documentation that even broken down into sub categories should be deterrent enough for exploring this activity. I have documentation from reputable Neurologists, well defined Legal Documentation dealing predominantly with the 'what if factor' and a lifetime of hands on experience contending with the chronic ramifications of someone I love dearly who suffers to this very day as a result of hypoxia.

Putting all the above mentioned aside the aspect of your and Kaetron's posts as a new couple to Ds and one partner who states clearly as having little experience of BDSM activity is WHY ? Why are you so concerned with a form of edge play that is usually relegated very close to hard limits for most ?

Just seems quite odd to me that a novitiates to the craft of BDSM would concern themselves so. Perhaps I am being naive , Kaeyron's reply about his experience as a Doctor seemed so cavalier as to his ability to 'administer' breathplay.If I am 'off task' with how I have perceived your dual comments Iriadne and Kaeyron then you have my apologies in advance. I in fact wish you both well.

Control Tower
Take a Deep Breath

BY MISTRESS MATISSE

I was reading a BDSM message board lately when a woman asked a question about how to find partners. She didn't need a serious kinkster, she said, because she had what she called "a vanilla fetish." Want to hazard a guess what her kink was? Erotic breath-control play. She liked being strangled during sex.

Oh, that's scary. She thinks because it doesn't require whips or black leather that what gets her off is entry-level. She couldn't be more wrong, and it's a mistake that may wind up costing her dearly.

Most types of BDSM aren't life threatening. However, a few practices that come under the "fetish" umbrella can, if they go badly, result in serious injury or death. Electrical play, for example, can interfere with the action of the heart if not done properly. A botched rope-bondage suspension can lead to a nasty fall. However, with most types of what BDSM people call "edge play," following strict rules of technique will greatly ameliorate the risk. So I follow those rules, and I do those kinds of play.

But breath play—limiting or denying someone the ability to breathe, either by suffocation or strangulation—is unquestionably the type of edge play with the highest potential for harm and the lowest controllable margin of safety. SM 101 author Jay Wiseman has done a great deal of research on breath play, and he states: "I know of no way whatsoever that either suffocation or strangulation can be done in a way that does not intrinsically put the recipient at risk of cardiac arrest… I know of no reliable way to determine when such a cardiac arrest has become imminent." Read that again: Cutting off someone's breathing can make them have a heart attack, and there is no way to really know if that's just about to happen. Watching your partner closely, or telling them to signal you if they're about to pass out, will not prevent a disaster.

Jay also notes, "If the recipient does arrest, the probability of resuscitating them, even with optimal CPR, is distinctly small." In the U.S., there are at least 250 reported deaths each year from breath play gone wrong (according to The Medical Realities of Breath Control Play by Jay Wiseman), and I can find no statistic on any other type of kink-related fatalities that even approaches that figure. Even if you don't have a heart attack, there are a lot of other ways to go wrong, ranging from rupturing blood vessels in someone's eyes to cumulative brain damage.

Why would someone find it sexy to be unable to breathe? It varies. Some people acknowledge that the risk is part of the thrill. Others say that putting their lives into a partner's hands is a sign of trust, and some feel that it's the ultimate loss of control.

But pretty much everyone who does breath control mentions that it increases the intensity of their orgasm. That's why some of those breath control deaths happen when guys (and a few women) strangle themselves while masturbating. They think they'll be able to stop in time. But you can't reliably know if you're about to get into trouble, any more than a partner would. And passing out alone, with a noose around your neck? Well, I hope you checked the "organ donor" box on your driver's license.

Given all these facts, I absolutely will not do breath play. I hear a certain amount of whining about that from the "But I really, really want you too, Mistress!" demographic. The Mistress says: Too bad. Dominants have limits, too, and that's one of mine. For one thing, I don't fancy being arrested for murder if the worst happens. I doubt I'd get much sympathy from a jury even if I convinced them it had been consensual. And I don't want to have to live with the knowledge that I've killed someone, even accidentally.

I also think that I've got the talent and the skills to create intense experiences for people without putting them in such real and imminent danger of death. Yes, life is full of risks, and accidents can happen in other types of kinky scenes, too. But with some creativity and some experimentation, one can devise hot and satisfying ways of getting off without relying on oxygen deprivation. I'm much happier engaging in other, safer ways of taking someone's breath away.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[FurryFury]

I'm finding this thread fascinating!

Fury

 

[Iriadne]

This thread has so much information it should be in the Library!

Question: Does the mask measure the breathing pace itself or do you?

Wondering because my main reason against extreme play like is, is that I have dizzy spells. As such, j is never put into a position he cannot get out of himself. I know it makes even bondage play more of an illusion than anything real, but it's safer for both of us. If he's gagged and we're using a dropped coin (love the bell idea), then he is usually bound in such a way that he could escape and ungag himself. Nothing is 100% safe (most accidents happen at home, bathroom, right?) but we try our best.

Rrrosyn,
The mask itself is held over the face by the dominant position. If They release pressure on the mask seal then it will loosen from the face and can be shaken off by the sub. The mask itself is easily available from most medical supply shops that cater to emergency medical providers - it is the same thing that you see on shows like ER when the patient stops breathing and they put the bag thing on.
Hope this helps!
~i